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Episode 3 - Editing Back in Progress (* unfinished project *) — Page 10

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I just tried real quick... the difference in tamber in his voice for when he says "light sabers" and "swords" is completely different... he's almost whispering in Episode II,but in III it's more of a loud voice... to fill the room... so it would be REALLY jarring to jump from one to the other... so maybe we can find another word...


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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Thanks, Saintheart and GM for the location of "lightsaber" and how it sounds in conjunction with Dooku's actual scene lines. I'm going to keep the change in mind, but I think it's time for me to move on from the Dooku scene.

Anyone have any feedback on my latest fight incarnations ( 1 , 2 )?

EDIT : In my exhausted state last night, I added the wrong version title to each of the edits. v4A should be "seduction, then remorse", and v4B should be "remorse, then seduction".
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oh yes, lol... I meant to comment on those lol

Gernally I like the idea you're going for. Afew of the shots I don't like but it's persona choice. Like the shot of anakin lying down watching what's going on with Obi-Wan. It always felt like a waste of time.

I like the idea of intercutting between Obi-wan jumping back up and taking out the droids, and Anakin and Dooku battling up the stairs... good idea lol.

I like how this video starts. If only the expression of Palpatines face were a bit different lol.

The flipped shot of them fighting was a good idea. It works well and seems fresh. I actually had to do a double take becuase I thought it was a shot I hadn't seen before... but then I realized the table was in the wrong place... that's the only thing really heh

I think I like the seduction one better... simply becuase it seems... more concise...and works well. The remorse one first is a good idea... but it cuts awkwardly from Anakin breathing to him walking back and such...

Some cool ideas though heh


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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Thanks, GM. I used the flipped shot originally to make it seem as if the Force push Dooku does to Obi-wan was a bit of revenge for his meddling in Episode II as I had originally cut directly from Dooku's line "I've been looking forward to this".

This also eliminated the awkwardness of the Force push shot since Anakin was nowhere to be seen and not even hinted at though his actions should have placed him the shot's foreground.

The edit stayed the same after I adopted your placement of that line after Dooku's saber ignition, which I liked better. I like the flipped shot still since it removes Obi-wan's slightly clumsy cross-over in the following original saber clashes.

Glad to hear that you like the beginning of the video. I was rather proud of that bit. It's cool what can happen with the exchange of ideas here on the forum.

For Palpatine's facial expressions, maybe it would help to think of his two personas as distinctly separate, a truly evil character acting out his part as a good guy even though the audience knows differently. I'm trying to make his character more subtle in his corruption of Anakin.
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Just did a quick read of all three LOTR scripts at http://www.tk421.net/lotr/film/ for Christopher Lee dialogue. Only thing I found was "So, you have chosen... death" in LOTR: TheFellowship of the Ring.
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cool...glad you looked that up... I actually took out FOTR and was considering going through it... but I only have the extended version and I was NOT going to sit here that long just to find dialogs... lol... and I wasn't entirely in the mood to watch the movie... maybe tomorrow though lol


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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Have you cosidered muting out "your swords please". maybe linger on the Jedi and then have him simply come out with "wouldn't want to make a mess of things...." Haven't really looked at the shot to conmsider this, just putting it out there. I think he'd still maintain that "I'm a smug asshole" sound.

It's all looking very good expect for one thing. [I refer to GM's edits here] the part where Dooku ignites his saber. the shot itself just doesnt't look right AND the rapid cut from that to his face feels very jarring. I don't know how you could get around this. Possibly have it ignite off screen, If I recall there's a shot somewhere there looking at the Jedi from behind Dooku.

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Happy to be of help, GM. Not sure if the scripts were the extended versions or not, but IMDB.com seemed to indicate that Saruman was only in part 3 in the extended version. If so, then the script for part 3 was the extended one at least.

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Unashamedly doing the 'swords' thing to death: I personally don't know about muting the whole thing out, but how about this instead: you've got the word "Surrender" from Ep 2 in the Geonosis Arena -- is there the use of the word "gentlemen" somewhere? I would've thought Christopher Lee must've said that somewhere in LOTR, the PT, or other movies he's made. The line "Surrender, gentlemen," might be a decent replacement...and still nice and overconfident.

Dealing with each version of the duel:

Version A:

(1) You've got the problem of how Obi-Wan winds up underneath the balcony, since Dooku doesn't cause it to fall in this version. A bit of a continuity difficulty, I would've thought.

(2) As Anakin and Obi-Wan enter, the choice of the 'chair shot' followed by the slightly-distressed closeup is nice, but it's a little disorienting to me IMHHO because the establishing long shot of the deck comes after the closeup. That's a reversal of the traditional way of establishing a scene. I think it flows smoother with the establishment of the overall space first like this: Chair shot. Establishing shot. As Anakin and Obi-Wan start moving, put in Palpatine's distressed closeup, since it then looks like he's reacting to the two Jedi's movement at the top of the balcony.

(3) Regarding the problem of the jar between Dooku's ignition and his words: it's because in the wider shot he's not moving but is moving in the closer shot. But this can be fixed: cut a few more frames off the closer shot so he isn't moving as much, and it should run a little smoother.

(4) Hm. That's an alternative way to get around that Obi-Wan Force push problem, but I personally think the shot lingers on Palpatine a bit too long: as an audience member I can see myself asking "Why does 'Twice the pride, double the fall' have some significance for Palpatine?" I also wonder, as an audience member, where Anakin is when Dooku's doing the Force push.

(5) My impression on viewing Dooku's execution is that Anakin was in cahoots with Palpatine -- that they had some sort of agreement that he'd kill Dooku if it came to that. I love the way it's cut, but that's the impression I got from it -- that Anakin was basically just following Palpatine's orders given at some earlier date.

(6) I would've said slightly less delay on the line "You wanted revenge" -- it's (I think) one beat too slow.

(7) The concluding conversation now works extremely well. Great stuff.

Version B:

(1) Similar concerns to 1-4 and 6-7 above.

(2) I think Version A works better for Dooku's execution. Anakin's remorse comes a bit too suddenly for it to be realistic (in my mind), and Version A just seems to flow better.



...Just some thoughts.
"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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Originally posted by: Saintheart
is there the use of the word "gentlemen" somewhere? I would've thought Christopher Lee must've said that somewhere in LOTR, the PT, or other movies he's made.


Doesn't he say this when talking with the seperatists while they they are sitting by the table in Episode II????

Master Qui-Gon

Master Qui-Gon/TheRealDealReloaded On Youtube

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Originally posted by: Master Qui-Gon
Originally posted by: Saintheart
is there the use of the word "gentlemen" somewhere? I would've thought Christopher Lee must've said that somewhere in LOTR, the PT, or other movies he's made.


Doesn't he say this when talking with the seperatists while they they are sitting by the table in Episode II????


He says "friends" at the conference in Episode II, and it would be great to have him say "surrender, friends".

It would be somewhat true for him to say that, because Dooku was part of the Jedi order, and even though he is no longer with them he still views them as colleagues. He just thinks they are on the wrong side and have lost there way. He isn't an outright Jedi killing Sith, and he wants to correct the problems of the Jedi so he kills the ones he has to, the ones who would not reason with logic. He never once killed a Jedi out of anger or rage. If he didn't have to and could save one he did. The ones he did kill he killed, because he cared for the Jedi order and couldn't get them to see the problems of the order and how to fix them.This is why Dooku is so tragic. He still respects the Jedi Order and the Jedi, and wants to see it done right by so for him to call them "friends" is kind of touching.


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It would be somewhat true for him to say that, because Dooku was part of the Jedi order, and even though he is no longer with them he still views them as colleagues. He just thinks they are on the wrong side and have lost there way. He isn't an outright Jedi killing Sith, and he wants to correct the problems of the Jedi so he kills the ones he has to, the ones who would not reason with logic. He never once killed a Jedi out of anger or rage. If he didn't have to and could save one he did. The ones he did kill he killed, because he cared for the Jedi order and couldn't get them to see the problems of the order and how to fix them.This is why Dooku is so tragic. He still respects the Jedi Order and the Jedi, and wants to see it done right by so for him to call them "friends" is kind of touching.


At the risk of being over-the-top, I think this is exactly what Dooku wanted the Jedi to believe about him, not what he really was. He reveals himself when he says the line "I've been looking forward to this." Not very Jedi, or friendly towards former Jedi companions, I thought, to relish a lethal duel where somebody's got a good chance of getting a hot bar of plasma through their gut. Dooku was a Sith, and the Sith always have two metaphorical faces: the public one, and the real one. See Palpatine/Darth Sidious for details, and indeed the fact of Dooku's dual identity as Darth Tyranus. Yoda says Dooku's ways are now "Lies, hatred, greedy mistrust", and at the end of Ep 2 he was about to cold-bloodedly execute Obi-Wan, down and defenceless, until Anakin intervened.

Dooku doesn't strike me as a tragic figure -- deceived, yes; seduced by the Dark Side, yes; but willingly taking that course because of his own cult of personality. The way Matthew Stover 'writes' Dooku in the novelisation of Ep 3 (EU though it is) to me gets the character perfectly: Dooku is the archetypical sociopath. He believes other people aren't quite real, and can only class an individual as either an asset to him or a liability to his goals. He is an example of Jedi detachment taken to a cruel extreme: a detachment so profound it leads to disregard for human life at all. His pride and overdemanding standards have metastasised into a condition so easily seduced by the Dark Side that even decades of training as a Jedi Master couldn't prevent it.
"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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Originally posted by: Saintheart
Unashamedly doing the 'swords' thing to death: ...The line "Surrender, gentlemen," might be a decent replacement...and still nice and overconfident.
Originally posted by: Marvolo
...it would be great to have him say "surrender, friends".
I think "friends" would work even though I agree with Saintheart on Dooku's character. In light of the rest of the scene, it would play out as manipulative; just like a Sith.
Originally posted by: Saintheart
Dealing with each version of the duel:
Version A:

(1) Point taken. I have an idea for how to remedy this, but I'll need to wait to see how it works in conjunction with my edit of the entire beginning of the movie.
(2) Since I am hoping not to show Palpatine turning around in his chair, this might prove annoying as I would need to use After Effects to remove Anakin and Obi-wan in order to use Palpatine's wide shot for scene establishment.
(3) Point taken.
(4) I see your point about Palpatine. "[W]here Anakin is when Dooku's doing the Force push?" LOL Same question I had in the original cut of the movie. Anyway I've looked at it, Anakin should somehow be in the shot, but he's not. Someone suggested a shadow of him from off-screen? What do you think?
(5) "My impression on viewing Dooku's execution is that Anakin was in cahoots with Palpatine" I can see that, too. I was trying to indicate that Anakin is somehow motivated by Palpatine to kill without the horrid dialogue, whether it was Anakin's own emotional attachment to Palpatine or Palpatine worming his way into Anakin's mind. But audience impression is more important than intent. In light of that, I think GM's "heat-of-the-moment" execution may be best.
(6) Point taken.
(7) Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Version B:

We'll just pretend this version doesn't exist; how about that?
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Originally posted by: Marvolo
Originally posted by: Master Qui-Gon
Originally posted by: Saintheart
is there the use of the word "gentlemen" somewhere? I would've thought Christopher Lee must've said that somewhere in LOTR, the PT, or other movies he's made.


Doesn't he say this when talking with the seperatists while they they are sitting by the table in Episode II????


He says "friends" at the conference in Episode II, and it would be great to have him say "surrender, friends".


No he doesn't. He says gentlemen. "I am quite convinced that ten thousand more systems will rally to our cause with your support gentlemen".
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(1) Point taken. I have an idea for how to remedy this, but I'll need to wait to see how it works in conjunction with my edit of the entire beginning of the movie.

You're thinking of doing something like an explosion to rattle the ship seriously and then drop the balcony on Obi-Wan, aren't you?

(2) Since I am hoping not to show Palpatine turning around in his chair, this might prove annoying as I would need to use After Effects to remove Anakin and Obi-wan in order to use Palpatine's wide shot for scene establishment.

Ah. I missed that. Nvrmnd then...

(4) I see your point about Palpatine. "[W]here Anakin is when Dooku's doing the Force push?" LOL Same question I had in the original cut of the movie. Anyway I've looked at it, Anakin should somehow be in the shot, but he's not. Someone suggested a shadow of him from off-screen? What do you think?

I'd suggested having his silhouette somehow blocking part of the shot for a brief second, moving right to left, but the logistics might be beyond anything but WETA Another possibility I thought of might be to roto a moving blue saber blade in over part of the frame for a brief second just to give the impression that he's there just off-camera. If it's timed right I think it could work... and I'd reiterate my comment in another thread that Obi-Wan's landing on the floor IMHHO should be shortened at the beginning, because it feels a beat too long and makes the audience think Anakin's just waiting for his cue to attack Dooku instead of hammering straight at him...

(5) "My impression on viewing Dooku's execution is that Anakin was in cahoots with Palpatine" I can see that, too. I was trying to indicate that Anakin is somehow motivated by Palpatine to kill without the horrid dialogue, whether it was Anakin's own emotional attachment to Palpatine or Palpatine worming his way into Anakin's mind. But audience impression is more important than intent. In light of that, I think GM's "heat-of-the-moment" execution may be best.

It was just my initial impression ... it does work on repeated viewings, but I hope I was coming to it with a fresh head when I first viewed it...

And lastly: I think you've actually got the choice of "Surrender, friends"or "Surrender, gentlemen." Because the 'friends' line also comes from that meeting in Ep 2: "Our friends from the Trade Federation have pledged their support."
"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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Originally posted by: Dantha Fodder
Originally posted by: Marvolo
Originally posted by: Master Qui-Gon
Originally posted by: Saintheart
is there the use of the word "gentlemen" somewhere? I would've thought Christopher Lee must've said that somewhere in LOTR, the PT, or other movies he's made.


Doesn't he say this when talking with the seperatists while they they are sitting by the table in Episode II????


He says "friends" at the conference in Episode II, and it would be great to have him say "surrender, friends".


No he doesn't. He says gentlemen. "I am quite convinced that ten thousand more systems will rally to our cause with your support gentlemen".


He also says, "And when our friends of the trade federation have pledged their support, we will have an army greater than any. Th Jedi will be overwhelmed."


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this is just a comment but I noticed a lot of people who view the edits talk about rotoing different things into the shots.

I'm just curious but... does ANYONE here have that ability? If so, I'd like to know becuase maybe you can help me from time to time lol...cause I don't... I don't think I do at least...


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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On the rotoscoping point, while I don't do it myself, the guys over on boards.theforce.net do it (look for the fan films board and in particular the "Ryan Wieber method") pretty much on a daily basis. I've seen adywan's Ep IV edit and it's clear he knows how to do lightsabers on film (or at least the ignitions )

The very bare bones way it's done is like this -- this is not a full account of how. You basically paint a white bar onto each frame of the shot where you want the saber to go. Using some fancy effects (and After Effects or Premiere seem to have all the tools required to do it) you then create the "outer glow" of the saber and apply it to the white bars you've painted all over your frames.) Hey presto, lightsaber.
"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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Originally posted by: Saintheart
You're thinking of doing something like an explosion to rattle the ship seriously and then drop the balcony on Obi-Wan, aren't you?
The explosion idea for the balcony falling on Obi-wan is a great idea! I'll keep that in mind. But, no, that wasn't what I was thinking... And I'm not going to reveal it yet, either (though it really wouldn't be anything splashy).
(2) Since I am hoping not to show Palpatine turning around in his chair, this might prove annoying as I would need to use After Effects to remove Anakin and Obi-wan in order to use Palpatine's wide shot for scene establishment.
Ah. I missed that. Nvrmnd then...
I still think you may have a point there. I may need to put in the extra work.
I'd suggested having his silhouette somehow blocking part of the shot for a brief second, moving right to left, but the logistics might be beyond anything but WETA
How much do you think they'd charge for 1 shot? Seriously, I briefly looked at surrounding footage for a shot that might work as a shadow but didn't see an Anakin figure that could be rotoscoped for a shadow, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist in other fights. He should be in the shot. Definitely. How'd that escape Lucasfilm?? Maybe they should contact WETA!
...Obi-Wan's landing on the floor IMHHO should be shortened at the beginning, because it feels a beat too long and makes the audience think Anakin's just waiting for his cue to attack Dooku instead of hammering straight at him...

Yeah, I got that impression, too. Like, "What do you think this is Kid Blunder? A line for an amusement park ride?"
It was just my initial impression [that Anakin was in cahoots with Palpatine]... it does work on repeated viewings, but I hope I was coming to it with a fresh head when I first viewed it...

Yeah, I like the way the cuts work technically, but you might be right.
And lastly: I think you've actually got the choice of "Surrender, friends"or "Surrender, gentlemen." Because the 'friends' line also comes from that meeting in Ep 2: "Our friends from the Trade Federation have pledged their support."

I like "Surrender, gentlemen."

Thanks for posting the rotoscope info. I haven't tried my hand at any of it yet.

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There are many different ways to add these sorts of effects. The simplest way I've found is to use gaussian blurs. Rotoscoping itself is basically and exercise in patience. I might be able to help you. I've had some good results...inconsistent, but good.

Please keep in mind this was a rush job. was just looking for a 'roto' example i'd done.
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2227/doic7.jpg

I'm still catching up with the various ep3 edits and whatnot.
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Seriously, I briefly looked at surrounding footage for a shot that might work as a shadow but didn't see an Anakin figure that could be rotoscoped for a shadow, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist in other fights. He should be in the shot. Definitely. How'd that escape Lucasfilm?? Maybe they should contact WETA!

Maybe they should contact an executioner for whoever was responsible for continuity on that sequence. The problems we're identifying come down primarily to continuity in my view - from Dooku using the wrong hand, to Dooku's original line being too short for him to cross the floor in the time he had, to Anakin being out of shot. The problem, I think, was trying to do the whole thing on digital film and put it all together while they were there on set. Too many pretty colours makes Continuity Man go space cadet.

I will also bring up one thing that really is pretty much unfixable no matter what anyone does, and that's Obi-Wan's effortless (no, I mean anti-suspension-of-disbelief effortless, not Jedi effortless) deflection of blaster bolts as he's running up the stairs. I mean, his saber doesn't even move to deflect bolts coming from different angles! And it's not like even that cut is smooth either, because Obi-Wan is obviously a Spacing Guild Navigator -- he travels a good ten to fifteen feet of space without moving! And you can't cut the bloody thing out, either, because the damn droids are in the initial shot with Dooku! Grrrrr....
"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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"The problem, I think, was trying to do the whole thing on digital film and put it all together while they were there on set. Too many pretty colours makes Continuity Man go space cadet."

having look at other shots in the film I agree. theres often very little to work with.

There are a lot of moments in the scene that could be improved if you had the footage but there is so much going on and the characters are constantly moving. I might try a shot or two to convey my ideas after work tomorrow.
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I must add,however, that Lucas didn't shoot a film... she shot a documentary.

When it came time to release it, he sat back, looked at what he had, and decided what story to tell... breaking down things, removing things, and adding things.

It's ironic that they had to delete some great scenes because of "time constraints" that he puts on himself, but that the whole ending sequence could have been tightened like how some of us have done it ...myself included... without removing Vader if his wish is such... lol...

But he seems to simply waste out time with things... I suppose to cover up the flubs...make them not last as long...

But yea... he films sooo much stuff... I think that anyone not paying attention would get confused...and then of course, there's when he takes stuff from green/blue screen and decides "I don't want this on mustfar! I want this on my back porch!" and then we wonder why the tea cozy doesn't end up in the right hand! lol


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me