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Anyone else nostalgic to the PT? — Page 2

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Originally posted by: sunday256
At 37 years old, I can still look back at the stop motion animation of the taun-tauns and cringe, or get entirely dragged down by the pace of ANH, or wishing those ewoks were wookies. And don't think for a moment I don't have qualms about the prequels because I do, but I don't let my qualms get in the way of enjoying all 6 movies like many here do. And I think that's a shame that some people will never just relax enjoy the prequels. They've got to constantly complain about how bad they are and try and convince others that they are crap.

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Sunday, with all due respect, it is the story that sells a SW movie, not the effects, and that is what makes me laugh about the SE & the PT, the effects and the visuals seem to be what Lucas focused on.

I love SW(ANH) & ESB dearly, not because they were part of my childhood, but cause they are damn good SciFI movies, the same way Indiana Jones, BTTF, and Superman:The Movie were too. Sure I grew up with those movies, but there is a reason they still are great 30 years later, they didn't cater to kids like me even though I fell in love with them as a kid! Do you see the irony? None of those movies put any kiddy humor in there just so a 6 year old would laugh, they were all made for a teenager that adults and kids could enjoy none the less.

Starting with ROTJ and continuing with the PT, the movies are executed to a kiddy audience, or dare I say 'dumbed' down. I think the story overall is still written the same as the OT, as I find each PT movie very interesting especially how Palpatine rises to power mirroring the way Hitler did. (Lucas is a big WWII fan as he has said in the past.) The problem is the PT movies and in many way ROTJ are executed for a 5 year old kid in many ways and that is why you have Jar Jar & The Ewoks, things that any teenagers knows aren't very cool.

Just watch all those movies like Star Trek II: Wraith of Khan, BTTF, Alien, Superman, SW, ESB, Indiana Jones, and even Jaws in some respects, those movies have stood the test of time solely because they did not try to cater to the kiddies, and kids like me in the late 70's early 80's just latched on and fell in love with them. The problem with catering to the kiddies is that when they grow up they notice that kiddy crap and makes the movie very cheesy, like Jar Jar & The Ewoks. So yes, little kids do like the PT, but get back to me in 10 years when they are in high school and let me know what they think of the AOTC romance, and I know cause I was one of those kiddies who loved ROTJ back in 1983.
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Originally posted by: sunday256
I agree that he's not totally isolating the movie to just a child's demographic. It's not like it's an ABC-Seasame Street kind of movie. There are adult situations, but it's done in a way that a child can enjoy it. And I think you hit the mark when you say 12 year old. That's an age that's older than a toddler but young enough to still be considered a child and not a teenager. Granted, there's merit in calling a teen a child also.

I'll agree to some extent that ROTJ and TPM are a bit soft and gooey when it comes to pandering, for the simple reason that Jar Jar and Ewoks have this way of grating an adults nerves, but I don't find that with AOTC or ROTS. Now, there may be some really pathetic dialogue in both of those movies, but that's no different than any of the other movies...even the actors will agree.


As far as pandering goes though, to me the PT in general, even AOTC and to a lesser extent ROTS, still panders to kids--not because it has fart jokes and stuff like that but because it is made in a form that only kids can really appreciate. They are extremely fast-paced films without much nuance or emotional subtext--everything is rush, rush, rush, without stopping to really absorb the characters or hint at some kind of interior motivation, and the dwelling on the whole "serial" thing overpowers the films oftens; ANH referenced the serials, but it wasn't actually made as one, unlike AOTC for example. ANH was quickly paced but you at least had that nuance--i mean you look at Obi Wan's death or Luke discovering the burning homestead, it is presented very simply and brushed away quite quickly, but there is still that little thing there in the performance and we are at least stopped for a moment to dwell upon it. Its that type of thing that makes adults appreciate the films, but theres no reason why kids can't either--and they do, which is why these type of films are always more loved, and its for these same reasons that kids instinctively gravitated towards LOTR as a series of true power as that series went on--i remember seeing 12 year old crying during ROTK because they were touched by it. I think Lucas tried to do a bit of this emotional subtext in AOTC with Anakin crying about killing the Tusken Raiders and wanting to turn the ship around to save Padme but it didn't really come off the same. With ROTS i felt that he finally found some of that emotional subtext however, and theres a reason why this is the only film that is even tolerated by audiences--characters have motivation finally, there is an emotional throughline, and you can see in the performances that for once there is actually more going on that the dialog is saying. It's still rushed through however and not given enough breathing time--and of course Lucas let the whole "the films are serials" get the better of him. I mean Darth Vader saying "noooo"? Imagine if Luke discovers the burning homestead, John Williams music is swelling, the audience is being moved, we get the wonderful John Ford wideshot with the smoke billowing out....and then Luke drops to his knees and screams "NOOOooooo" before the scene irises out. Yeah. Thats the key difference between Star Wars and the PT. Analyse it for whatever factors you may find let to this type of stylistic difference but whatever they are, one of the films is touching and sweeping and the other is plagued with cheese and awkwardness that prevents it from truely being successful.
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There are plenty of compelling moments in the PT and they are just as intense as what's in the OT as far as I'm concerned. And you bring up a perfect example, actually.

I think the two most memorable moments for me are...OT Luke looking at the sunset in ANH. And the death of Shmi in AOTC. Some of you may think otherwise about the latter, but I was severely touched and shocked at that moment in the theater. It was handled very well I thought. So no, I don't believe they're necessarily watered down.

I'm not posting to convince you that you're wrong, I'm posting to let other PT fans know that not every OOT fan looks negatively towards the PT. I don't feel the need to convince you all that you're wrong, nor do I feel the need to defend how I feel about the PT. I enjoy all 6 films and honestly that's all that matters to me. Feel free to debate on, I think I've expressed my feelings about as well as I can and hopefully everyone can accept what I have to say sincerely.
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Originally posted by: sunday256
And the death of Shmi in AOTC. Some of you may think otherwise about the latter, but I was severely touched and shocked at that moment in the theater. It was handled very well I thought. So no, I don't believe they're necessarily watered down.
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I am never one to argue with a persons taste, but that scene is stolen from Superman:The Movie. Remember when the Smallville Part of the movie where Clark Kent is in high school and his father dies in front of him of a heart attack, and then he is with his mother in front of his grave and says, "With all these great powers, I still couldn't save you." Watch that part again from the 1978 movie, it is almost exactly alike.

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Originally posted by: CO
Originally posted by: sunday256
And the death of Shmi in AOTC. Some of you may think otherwise about the latter, but I was severely touched and shocked at that moment in the theater. It was handled very well I thought. So no, I don't believe they're necessarily watered down.
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I am never one to argue with a persons taste, but that scene is stolen from Superman:The Movie. Remember when the Smallville Part of the movie where Clark Kent is in high school and his father dies in front of him of a heart attack, and then he is with his mother in front of his grave and says, "With all these great powers, I still couldn't save you." Watch that part again from the 1978 movie, it is almost exactly alike.


Well thats hardly an legitimate argument against it. By that logic, most of the OT should be discarded because Lucas completely took scenes and imagery from other films--in fact the shot of Luke viewing the burning homestead, is, as i mentioned, taken from John Ford's The Searchers. Personally i found the schmi death to be a typical moment of the PT--a highly charged emotional scene that had the power to be poignant and touching, but was madly mishandled and only achieves a fraction of its power. Pernilla August was dreadful, the editing was sloppy and there is that cheesy moment that just instantly pulls you out of the film--she is having a poetic death scene but then she slumps her back dead, instantly. Its like a high school play. It's moments like that that just make even the best of the PT have some kind of ackward mar on it that any other director would been aware enough to avoid.
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Originally posted by: sunday256Imagine if Luke discovers the burning homestead, John Williams music is swelling, the audience is being moved, we get the wonderful John Ford wideshot with the smoke billowing out....and then Luke drops to his knees and screams "NOOOooooo" before the scene irises out. Yeah. Thats the key difference between Star Wars and the PT. Analyse it for whatever factors you may find let to this type of stylistic difference but whatever they are, one of the films is touching and sweeping and the other is plagued with cheese and awkwardness that prevents it from truely being successful.


My only problem with the scene of Darth Vader screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! is that is not something Vader would do. Now had that been Anikan and not Vader standing there screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I would have had less of a problem with it. But when you add the suit, the mechanical voice, and the awkward limp you get Frankenstien and that is not something I imagined. Now take this for instance,

Back on Coruscant before Anikan leaves for Mustafar he goes to Padme's apartment like in the film, but instead of just telling her of the Jedi's betrayel he also confesses about his slaughtering of the Order and the younglings.

Anikan reaches out to her with his arm looking for acceptance and forgiveness for what he has done. He expects her to say " You did what was right by the law, and punishment for betrayel is death" but instead she recoils in disgust, exclaiming " What have you done! You are a Jedi, an upholder of peace not an executioner!"

Anikan then pleads: " Don't look at me like I am a monster. I am still your Ani."

Padem: "YOU ARE A MONSTER!!" "The man I married would never have done what you have done this night!" "Ani is dead to me and my husband along with him?

Suddenly something changes in Anikan's eyes. They glaze over and a fire errupts in them. A fire from the pits of hell itself. Anikan is no longer looking at Padme instead there is only rage and hate. Uncontrolible hatred. Padme attempts to turn and run and call for security. Anikan jumps her and slams her to the ground. He says in an unnaturally calm and loving voice " I am your little Ani don't you love me?"

Padme attempts to scream for security, but is unnable to speak for it seems an invisble hand has clasped itself about her throat. All she can muster is a faint sigh as air escapes her mouth. As Padme slips to unconciousness she mouths silently " come back to me". And all in her mind fades to blackness.

Realizing what he has just done, all the rage he was venting on Padme turns on himself and he lets out a scream to shake the universe itself. Glass explodes, computer panels burst to flame, tile cracks, the very foundation of the building shakes, the floors and walls begin to fly apart and all the wreckage begins to whirl about him and Padme creating a show of force power never witnessed by either Jedi or Sith. As quickly as it begins it stops. All the wreckage falls about himself and Padme.

He slumps and leans over Padme and kisses her on the lips. " I am sorry, I have failed you."

Standing, he turns and heads for his starfighter. With one last look he turns looks at the lifeless body of his beloved wife and a stray tear escapes his eye. " Goodbye, my love."

Then after all this Obi-wan finds Padme's body, and fleas Coruscant on the Tantive IV with Bail Organa and Yoda. While on the Tantive IV, the babies are removed from Padme by C-Section, and she would regain consciousness long enough for Obi-Wan to ask one question
"Where has Anikan gone? I must stop him."

She replies weakly "The Mustafar system." "Please Obi-Wan, save him." And then she would die.

I can expand this if anyone wants me to, becasue I have a lot more but didn't want to make this post too long.






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Originally posted by: zombie84


Well thats hardly an legitimate argument against it. By that logic, most of the OT should be discarded because Lucas completely took scenes and imagery from other films--in fact the shot of Luke viewing the burning homestead, is, as i mentioned, taken from John Ford's The Searchers. Personally i found the schmi death to be a typical moment of the PT--a highly charged emotional scene that had the power to be poignant and touching, but was madly mishandled and only achieves a fraction of its power. Pernilla August was dreadful, the editing was sloppy and there is that cheesy moment that just instantly pulls you out of the film--she is having a poetic death scene but then she slumps her back dead, instantly. Its like a high school play. It's moments like that that just make even the best of the PT have some kind of ackward mar on it that any other director would been aware enough to avoid.


I agree that Lucas took many things from his directors he loved as a kid, but the Anakin at Shmi thing is more of a plot point rather then a visual that was lifted from a previous movie.

This scene where Anakin talks to his mom at the grave is the key to the whole PT, this is the changing of Anakin, and eventually is the reason he turns to the darkside, and the exact scene and plot point is from Superman:The Movie, except Anakin couldn't turn back time by flying around the earth.

The key death scene in the OT is when Obiwan falls to Vader with Luke looking on, and Luke is never the same after that, and as far as I know that wasn't lifted from any movie, cause I can't remember any movie using the force ghost issue before SW.

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Originally posted by: CO
Originally posted by: zombie84


Well thats hardly an legitimate argument against it. By that logic, most of the OT should be discarded because Lucas completely took scenes and imagery from other films--in fact the shot of Luke viewing the burning homestead, is, as i mentioned, taken from John Ford's The Searchers. Personally i found the schmi death to be a typical moment of the PT--a highly charged emotional scene that had the power to be poignant and touching, but was madly mishandled and only achieves a fraction of its power. Pernilla August was dreadful, the editing was sloppy and there is that cheesy moment that just instantly pulls you out of the film--she is having a poetic death scene but then she slumps her back dead, instantly. Its like a high school play. It's moments like that that just make even the best of the PT have some kind of ackward mar on it that any other director would been aware enough to avoid.


I agree that Lucas took many things from his directors he loved as a kid, but the Anakin at Shmi thing is more of a plot point rather then a visual that was lifted from a previous movie.

This scene where Anakin talks to his mom at the grave is the key to the whole PT, this is the changing of Anakin, and eventually is the reason he turns to the darkside, and the exact scene and plot point is from Superman:The Movie, except Anakin couldn't turn back time by flying around the earth.

The key death scene in the OT is when Obiwan falls to Vader with Luke looking on, and Luke is never the same after that, and as far as I know that wasn't lifted from any movie, cause I can't remember any movie using the force ghost issue before SW.



By the same token Luke rushing back to the farm only to discover it burnt to the ground and his family massacred is probably the most memorable scene from The Searchers. The Cantina brawl is from Yojimbo, many other plot points from Hidden Fortress, and 1/4 of ESB is taken from Dersu Uzala, including the characters of Yoda and the scene where Han has to save Luke in the snowstorm. Star Wars is an amalgum of sources, some of the specific, some of the vague, some of the just images and shots and some of them whole scenes and characters. I don't think its fair to write off a scene because it was taken from somewhere else. If it works, it works. And Superman wasn't the only one to have a scene such as that--its an archetypal scene relating to the powerless people have over inevitable death.

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Originally posted by: zombie84
Originally posted by: CO
Originally posted by: zombie84


Well thats hardly an legitimate argument against it. By that logic, most of the OT should be discarded because Lucas completely took scenes and imagery from other films--in fact the shot of Luke viewing the burning homestead, is, as i mentioned, taken from John Ford's The Searchers. Personally i found the schmi death to be a typical moment of the PT--a highly charged emotional scene that had the power to be poignant and touching, but was madly mishandled and only achieves a fraction of its power. Pernilla August was dreadful, the editing was sloppy and there is that cheesy moment that just instantly pulls you out of the film--she is having a poetic death scene but then she slumps her back dead, instantly. Its like a high school play. It's moments like that that just make even the best of the PT have some kind of ackward mar on it that any other director would been aware enough to avoid.


I agree that Lucas took many things from his directors he loved as a kid, but the Anakin at Shmi thing is more of a plot point rather then a visual that was lifted from a previous movie.

This scene where Anakin talks to his mom at the grave is the key to the whole PT, this is the changing of Anakin, and eventually is the reason he turns to the darkside, and the exact scene and plot point is from Superman:The Movie, except Anakin couldn't turn back time by flying around the earth.

The key death scene in the OT is when Obiwan falls to Vader with Luke looking on, and Luke is never the same after that, and as far as I know that wasn't lifted from any movie, cause I can't remember any movie using the force ghost issue before SW.



By the same token Luke rushing back to the farm only to discover it burnt to the ground and his family massacred is probably the most memorable scene from The Searchers. The Cantina brawl is from Yojimbo, many other plot points from Hidden Fortress, and 1/4 of ESB is taken from Dersu Uzala, including the characters of Yoda and the scene where Han has to save Luke in the snowstorm. Star Wars is an amalgum of sources, some of the specific, some of the vague, some of the just images and shots and some of them whole scenes and characters. I don't think its fair to write off a scene because it was taken from somewhere else. If it works, it works. And Superman wasn't the only one to have a scene such as that--its an archetypal scene relating to the powerless people have over inevitable death.


Don't forget Lord of the Rings. People don't usually mention it, but you can construct a large amount of the plot backbone for Star Wars and Empire out of LotR. I wrote something about it awhile ago, let me see if I can look that up...
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Ah, here we go...

Star Wars Versus The Lord of the Rings

The powers of good struggle against the strong and well-organized military might of the enemy. The story opens with the enemy scouring the world for something of great value it has lost - something that would be a great threat to the enemy if it is not recovered, despite being, among other things, a rather plain looking hunk of gold metal (note what the Stormtrooper is holding when he says, "Look sir, droids!") . This threat finds its way to a distant farming community, to be inherited by a young hero filled with wanderlust. The hero receives the inheritance of his forefather from a wizened old sage, who charges him to travel far away from home to prevent the enemy from finding what they seek. This wise sage and the dark commander who is hunting for the hero were formerly friends and members of the same age-old order of magic-users, until the latter betrayed the order to become the enemy's second-in-command. In the course of running from his home, the hero and his party find themselves in a shady tavern where they encounter a scruffy-looking wanderer who joins them and provides transport and guidance in their mission, after they are forced to leave quickly when a spy of the enemy rats them out. They travel together towards a peaceful place which has become a center of the resistance against the enemy. After either resting there a bit or narrowly dodging its blown-up pieces, the party finds themselves misled into a massive stronghold of the enemy, a multi-level maze of passages and chasms. Their patience is tested as they stand in filthy, shallow water, trying to get through a locked door covered in strange symbols, when, suddenly, a tentacled creature grabs the hero and pulls him into the water. The creature leaves without being killed, and the party narrowly avoids being crushed by the ensuing wall collapse. The sage character sacrifices his life in a one-on-one duel in order to allow the rest of the party to escape the catacombs. The enemy gives mild chase, but allows the heroes to flee to the forested encampment of their allies.

Thereafter, the similarities grow fewer, but are still placeable in the second installment, which begins with a battle that results in the separation of the heroes. The majority of the party finds themselves in a drawn-out chase with the servants of the traitorous sage. The chase leads them to an isolated city, the leader of which has turned over his allegiance to the enemy, but ultimately redeems himself. The rest of the party, comprising the central hero and his shorter, fatter companion, travel through a mysterious, marshy place, and come across a shriveled little creature who is many hundreds of years old, and provides guidance to the hero, though the hero's friend does not particularly like or trust the creature, epitomized by an argument over food.

Of course, there are plenty of holes in this parallel - Star Wars has many influences, but Lord of the Rings is one that I almost never hear mentioned, and it clearly provided a large amount of back-bone to the plot, at least in the first two movies (Return of the Jedi and Return of the King are really only similar in name and the fact that they are mostly one big battle-scene).

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Originally posted by: Nobody
Star Wars has many influences, but Lord of the Rings is one that I almost never hear mentioned, and it clearly provided a large amount of back-bone to the plot,


Many many years ago, long before I'd ever read Lord Of The Rings, a buddy of mine was always trying to get me to read it. He knew I was a huge Star Wars nerd and one of his favorite things to mention was how Star Wars was just Lord Of The Rings in space.

He was right.

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