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What the fuck??? : George is definitely gone "bye bye" — Page 2

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Originally posted by: JediRandy
Again, I LOVE ESB.... no complaining here or anything like that....

but, if you were to show that flick to someone who has no idea what SW is... who has never seen the ANH... they'd be completly lost and going "Whaa?" every 2 minutes. Imagine the Wampa cave with no prior knowledge.... how the hell is he making that thing fly into his hand... then who is this ghost? You can go on and on...


There was this girl I was dated once who felt all science fiction was was silly fluff with no substance. One one of our dates we watched The Empire Strikes Back together. She had never seen a Star Wars film before and had never even heard of Star Wars other than from me. No knowledge of the Jedi, nothing. In fact, she was surprised when Luke lifts up his goggles and shows his face for the first time because *gasp* he was a human and not a robot. I don't know what the hell she was expecting the movie to be like, but she loved it. There was no "Whaaaaa?" every two minutes. She even let the force grabbing of the lightsaber pass by without a word. Later in the film Yoda explains the force to a very adequate degree. When the movie was over she could not believe how much she had enjoyed it and at our next date we watched Return of the Jedi, then later Star Wars. The reason I showed them to her out of order was that I knew that if she didn't like it she would only see one SW film in her life, and I wanted that to be Empire. No this girl is married to me and happily sit beside me and watching sci-fi with me all the time. It is still not her favorite, but Empire gave her a respect for it she never had and showed her it could have a lot more substance than she ever thought.

So your "Whaaaaaaaaaa?" every two minute argument is shot to hell. I agree Empire benefits greatly from watching Star Wars before hand, but I think it is a movie that can stand on its own, and that it does have a beginning middle and end in its own way. It does not resolve, that is true, but even if Jedi was never made the end of Empire Strike Back indicates hope, not despair. I don't think my wife was unique in being able to watch Empire Strikes Back before any of the others, the beauty of that film (not just as sci-fi, but as a film in general) way out weighs the confusions it might offer by being a sequel with no resolve.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: C3PX
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Again, I LOVE ESB.... no complaining here or anything like that....

but, if you were to show that flick to someone who has no idea what SW is... who has never seen the ANH... they'd be completly lost and going "Whaa?" every 2 minutes. Imagine the Wampa cave with no prior knowledge.... how the hell is he making that thing fly into his hand... then who is this ghost? You can go on and on...


There was this girl I was dated once who felt all science fiction was was silly fluff with no substance. One one of our dates we watched The Empire Strikes Back together. She had never seen a Star Wars film before and had never even heard of Star Wars other than from me. No knowledge of the Jedi, nothing. In fact, she was surprised when Luke lifts up his goggles and shows his face for the first time because *gasp* he was a human and not a robot. I don't know what the hell she was expecting the movie to be like, but she loved it. There was no "Whaaaaa?" every two minutes. She even let the force grabbing of the lightsaber pass by without a word. Later in the film Yoda explains the force to a very adequate degree. When the movie was over she could not believe how much she had enjoyed it and at our next date we watched Return of the Jedi, then later Star Wars. The reason I showed them to her out of order was that I knew that if she didn't like it she would only see one SW film in her life, and I wanted that to be Empire. No this girl is married to me and happily sit beside me and watching sci-fi with me all the time. It is still not her favorite, but Empire gave her a respect for it she never had and showed her it could have a lot more substance than she ever thought.

So your "Whaaaaaaaaaa?" every two minute argument is shot to hell. I agree Empire benefits greatly from watching Star Wars before hand, but I think it is a movie that can stand on its own, and that it does have a beginning middle and end in its own way. It does not resolve, that is true, but even if Jedi was never made the end of Empire Strike Back indicates hope, not despair. I don't think my wife was unique in being able to watch Empire Strikes Back before any of the others, the beauty of that film (not just as sci-fi, but as a film in general) way out weighs the confusions it might offer by being a sequel with no resolve.


Thanks for your very scientific research... your "girlfriend" totally debunked me. Shot all to hell I tell ya's!

Nevertheless, the movie has no beginning, middle or end....



"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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you know i think it has gotten to the point where he knows by now that he can get fans really riled up for no reason. and i think it has gotten to the point where he jsut says stupid stuff to rile the uber fans up
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You know what....I'm totally watching ESB tonight. Yes, it'll be the 2004 DVD...but it's changed a lot less than any other one and looks so incredibly nice on my TV. None the less....it will rule.

Hey look, a bear!

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Originally posted by: Marvolo
He is just pissed and jealous, because Kershner did what he couldn't. Make a good film without slapstick in your face fart and poop jokes.

It is kind of fitting though - there's five Star Wars sequels and the one that's almost universally thought of as the best, the most serious, has the best acting, best cinematography, etc - is one that George didn't direct.


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Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Originally posted by: Marvolo
He is just pissed and jealous, because Kershner did what he couldn't. Make a good film without slapstick in your face fart and poop jokes.

It is kind of fitting though - there's five Star Wars sequels and the one that's almost universally thought of as the best, the most serious, has the best acting, best cinematography, etc - is one that George didn't direct.


By no means am I a blind, accepting fanboy, but enough is enough.

Who the hell do you guys think thought up the stories in the first place?

Who created the characters? The ships? The planets? The tech?

George Lucas created the Millenium Fucking Falcon, and that's cool. He created TaunTauns. That's cool. He created Jabba. That's cool. Carbonite? Lucas. Pod Races (arguable the best part of EPI)? Lucas. The Clone Battle in EPII? Lucas.

It's not that I don't recognize the issues with Lucas or his filmmaking, but it's become so en vogue to bash him by saying "Well, he didn't do Empire or Jedi so he must suck." I call bullshit.

Yeah, Kersh and Marquand were great directors, and they helped forge amazing films, but their role was to interpret the scripts, block the scenes, coax the actors (who, let's face the facts, didn't win any Oscars for them) and compose the shots. They didn't make or break Star Wars. They were along for the ride. A ride that Lucas created - lock, stock, and smoking barrel.

It's the internet whining and Expanded Universe marketing that is killing Star Wars, not Lucas.

EDIT - @ Marvolo - where are the poop jokes and slapstick in Star Wars - sorry, EPIV: A New Hope?
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Originally posted by: TheCassidyBy no means am I a blind, accepting fanboy, but enough is enough.

Who the hell do you guys think thought up the stories in the first place?

Who created the characters? The ships? The planets? The tech?

George Lucas created the Millenium Fucking Falcon, and that's cool. He created TaunTauns. That's cool. He created Jabba. That's cool. Carbonite? Lucas. Pod Races (arguable the best part of EPI)? Lucas. The Clone Battle in EPII? Lucas.

It's not that I don't recognize the issues with Lucas or his filmmaking, but it's become so en vogue to bash him by saying "Well, he didn't do Empire or Jedi so he must suck." I call bullshit.

Yeah, Kersh and Marquand were great directors, and they helped forge amazing films, but their role was to interpret the scripts, block the scenes, coax the actors (who, let's face the facts, didn't win any Oscars for them) and compose the shots. They didn't make or break Star Wars. They were along for the ride. A ride that Lucas created - lock, stock, and smoking barrel.

It's the internet whining and Expanded Universe marketing that is killing Star Wars, not Lucas.

EDIT - @ Marvolo - where are the poop jokes and slapstick in Star Wars - sorry, EPIV: A New Hope?


I disagree regarding ESB. It is Kershner's film. Lucas stepped away and Kershner made the film his way, something that has led to resemtment from Lucas to this day. Marquand was along for the ride, which is why ROTJ feels so "Lucas" like, but ESB bold discontinuity from the rest of the series has mostly to do with Kershner. The whole fucking lame "the directors are just interpreting my vision" train of thought did not occur until ROTJ because Lucas was so displeased with what Kershner did with ESB, so instead of letting a director play in the world created with ANH Lucas instead opted for dictatorial control and used Marquand as a puppet for himself. He was on set every day, selected camera angles, was a consultant, directed second unit and directed main unit and had the same kind of sway that executive producers do over directors in the world of television. This was not so on ESB, where he only visited the set two or three times and let Kershner do his thing. The whole "Kershner interpreted Lucas' vision" thing is bullshit LFL propaganda. Theres a reason why the film is so utterly different from any of the others.

I give Lucas enormous credit as a filmmaker for his work in the 1970's, one of the most important artists from the most important era of american filmmaking but ESB is not his film. To his credit, he is responsible for some bolder story decisions, namely the decision to end the film ambiguously and have Vader be Luke's father, but the film works because of the cinematographry, the mis-en-scene, the directorial atmosphere, and the way in which the characters are portrayed, things which Lucas had nothing to do with.
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Originally posted by: TheCassidy

By no means am I a blind, accepting fanboy, but enough is enough.

Who the hell do you guys think thought up the stories in the first place?

Who created the characters? The ships? The planets? The tech?

George Lucas created the Millenium Fucking Falcon, and that's cool. He created TaunTauns. That's cool. He created Jabba. That's cool. Carbonite? Lucas. Pod Races (arguable the best part of EPI)? Lucas. The Clone Battle in EPII? Lucas.

It's not that I don't recognize the issues with Lucas or his filmmaking, but it's become so en vogue to bash him by saying "Well, he didn't do Empire or Jedi so he must suck." I call bullshit.

Yeah, Kersh and Marquand were great directors, and they helped forge amazing films, but their role was to interpret the scripts, block the scenes, coax the actors (who, let's face the facts, didn't win any Oscars for them) and compose the shots. They didn't make or break Star Wars. They were along for the ride. A ride that Lucas created - lock, stock, and smoking barrel.

It's the internet whining and Expanded Universe marketing that is killing Star Wars, not Lucas.

EDIT - @ Marvolo - where are the poop jokes and slapstick in Star Wars - sorry, EPIV: A New Hope?


Cassidy, I love the original SW more then any movie ever, including ESB, but ESB shows what a different director can do to a SW film. If you look at Lucas's work before SW, THX & American Graffitti, they are not these great dramas either, that is not Lucas's fortay.

SW/ANH is a perfect movie cause it doesn't try to delve too much into the characters, and it is a pure serial like Indiana Jones, where the characters are archetypes: A wizard, a farmer, a princess, and a scroundel. That is exactly why American Grafitti is a great movie, it isn't these great performances by Ron Howard and Richard Dreyfuss that drive the movie, it is the overall makeup of the movie and the chemistry of the actors that make it great, and that is what Lucas was great at.

ESB is a totally different movie then SW/ANH, and they are both classics because of that. The performances in ESB HAVE to be dead on or that movie doesn't work, because the drama is all from the characters adapting to the situation, where SW/ANH drama is from the story and the situation as the characters react to that.

For instance, just watch the whole Asteroid scene, Fisher/Ford really turn in great performances that make it believable that they are about to get pulverized. They are arguing, joking, and yelling at each other. Then go to the carbon freezing scene, and look at the drama from Fishers face as Han is shown in Carbonite the first time. THe best line in the movie is Han saying, "I know." That wasn't even written by Lucas, it was improvised by Kersher/Ford, and Lucas even thought at the premiere people would laugh, as it is stated in The Annotated Screenplays pg. 208.

Then look at the dramatic moments of SW/ANH, they are all visual, and that is what Lucas is great at: The binary sunset, Luke/Leia flying across the chasm on the deathstar, Luke blowing up the deathstar, they are 3 of my favorite moments and the reason I love the Original SW, but they have zero to do with acting, and more to do with the power of visuals accompanied by music.

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I agree with both of your replies to a degree, but what I'm getting at is that the greatness of ESB is forever being attributed to Kershner, but without Lucas' contributiuon of the characters, situations and overall design, Kersh would have had nothing to work with. That is why, in my estimation, it's not really fair to bash Lucas because he didn't "make" ESB.

Lord knows there are a lot of other things to bash him for, but I don't think the fact that he didn't direct ESB should be one of them.

The negativity around Star Wars now really turns me off of it, but I'm thinking I'm alone in my opinion so I'll shut up!
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Originally posted by: TheCassidy

The negativity around Star Wars now really turns me off of it, but I'm thinking I'm alone in my opinion so I'll shut up!



I agree with you on that, but I think the negativity around here will be hostile towards Lucas until he treats the OOT with some respect in this rumored boxset this year.

I think what myself and Zombie, and many other posters are just saying is that Lucas was god to us before the SE & PT, and now looking at the whole picture of just the OT, I think I gave Lucas TOO much credit. I am not saying the guy is a hack, cause he wrote & directed my favorite movie of all-time, but the flaws of the PT & SE really opened my eyes to some of the flaws of ROTJ, and how ESB could have been worse then it is.

Growing up, I always thought Lucas directed every SW film, I never bothered to check the credits at the end, I thought Lucas did EVERYTHING on the OT. And when the SE & PT came out, and I began checking the history of SW, I began to realize how much more collaboration the OT was compared to the PT, and how Kasdan wrote ESB & ROTJ, how Kersher & Marquand directed ESB & ROTJ, and how Kurtz played a much hands on role as producer of ANH & ESB then McCallum did with the SE & PT.

I think by Lucas making the PT & SE, he kinda exposed that he is not this god that was thought of by fans like me for all these years, and that is just the plain truth. Lucas deserves much credit for the OT in conception, the characters, and the overall story, but looking at how crappy the dialogue & acting was in the PT, you begin to wonder if Lucas had that much input in the OT, would ESB & ROTJ have been a good?
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Anyone here ever see a roast? That was a "roast" joke if I've ever heard one.
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Either he was joking, or the man is a complete idiot when it comes to movies, and I'm begginig to fear, based on his directorial skills, that the later might be true.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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well its official George has lost it...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/Kingsama/samasig.jpg
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Originally posted by: TheCassidy
Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Originally posted by: Marvolo
He is just pissed and jealous, because Kershner did what he couldn't. Make a good film without slapstick in your face fart and poop jokes.

It is kind of fitting though - there's five Star Wars sequels and the one that's almost universally thought of as the best, the most serious, has the best acting, best cinematography, etc - is one that George didn't direct.


By no means am I a blind, accepting fanboy, but enough is enough.

Who the hell do you guys think thought up the stories in the first place?

Who created the characters? The ships? The planets? The tech?

George Lucas created the Millenium Fucking Falcon, and that's cool. He created TaunTauns. That's cool. He created Jabba. That's cool. Carbonite? Lucas. Pod Races (arguable the best part of EPI)? Lucas. The Clone Battle in EPII? Lucas.

It's not that I don't recognize the issues with Lucas or his filmmaking, but it's become so en vogue to bash him by saying "Well, he didn't do Empire or Jedi so he must suck." I call bullshit.

Yeah, Kersh and Marquand were great directors, and they helped forge amazing films, but their role was to interpret the scripts, block the scenes, coax the actors (who, let's face the facts, didn't win any Oscars for them) and compose the shots. They didn't make or break Star Wars. They were along for the ride. A ride that Lucas created - lock, stock, and smoking barrel.

It's the internet whining and Expanded Universe marketing that is killing Star Wars, not Lucas.

EDIT - @ Marvolo - where are the poop jokes and slapstick in Star Wars - sorry, EPIV: A New Hope?


I agree and disagree. Without Lucas, there would have been no SW period. Without everyone else, SW would have been little beyond an idea. Certainly, he deserves credit. But I think that saying that everyone else was just along for the ride severly limits their contriutions as well. Really, I think everyone deserves credit where it's due. I don't care; I just want a good OOT, release, that's all.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: TheCassidy
It's the internet whining and Expanded Universe marketing that is killing Star Wars, not Lucas.

I disagree.

I also believe it's the internet whining, as you call it, that landed us the OOT on DVD. Without a unified voice, albeit a sometimes angry one, Lucas\Fox wouldn't have even bothered.

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Without Lucas' script for Episode V (before Kasdan and Kersh), there would be no Episode V as we see it now. I give Kersh alot of credit for the work he did on that film, along with the rest of the crew but the story points that make Episode V what it is today, still came mostly from Lucas after Brackett passed away.

They share equal credit for that film...eventhough it's not even close to being my favorite.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Read the Annotated Screenplays. They came up with the stories of Empire and Jedi in story conferences with many participants brainstorming story ideas, just the same as any TV show or other group project. Don't be fooled by the idea that Lucas came up with the concept and then the others fleshed it out. It's right there in black and white and published by the participants.
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Not on Episode V. Sure, brainstorming ideas and such, but it was Lucas who put pen to pad and created the structure and scenes for Episode V after Brackett died. Remember, Lucas essentially started from scratch after reading Brackett's draft of Episode V. Once he did his draft that set the tone, Kersh and Kasdan did the rest.

Episode V doesn't work without Lucas. He shouldn't get all the credit but he shouldn't be left out either.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman
Not on Episode V. Sure, brainstorming ideas and such, but it was Lucas who put pen to pad and created the structure and scenes for Episode V after Brackett died. Remember, Lucas essentially started from scratch after reading Brackett's draft of Episode V. Once he did his draft that set the tone, Kersh and Kasdan did the rest.

Episode V doesn't work without Lucas. He shouldn't get all the credit but he shouldn't be left out either.


Just remember with ESB, Lucas did not write the classic Han Solo line, "I know." Lucas wrote, "I love you too." and when Kersh & Ford changed it on set, and Lucas saw it in his first screening, he thought the crowd would laugh at it. So he made a pact with Kersh to let the audience decide at the preview whether to leave it in or not, and the audience loved it! It is all in the Annotated Screenplays.

I am just saying if Lucas written & directed ESB, we might have gotten a romance with Han/Leia more like Padme/Anakin in AOTC, and many of us here would only be SW '77 fans, and think the rest of the movies were inferior.



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Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Originally posted by: TheCassidy
It's the internet whining and Expanded Universe marketing that is killing Star Wars, not Lucas.

I disagree.

I also believe it's the internet whining, as you call it, that landed us the OOT on DVD. Without a unified voice, albeit a sometimes angry one, Lucas\Fox wouldn't have even bothered.


Big difference between thought out, articulate arguments and positive petitions, and "George Lucas raped my childhood" statements. That's the whining I refer to.
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Originally posted by: TheCassidy


Big difference between thought out, articulate arguments and positive petitions, and "George Lucas raped my childhood" statements. That's the whining I refer to.


Cassidy, I have honestly never heard someone post that statement about 'raping my childhood' other then when people use it against our side for wanting the OOT. Somebody must have said it way back in 1997, but I just can't find one post from anyone here who has ever said that.

As for people whining, it is the internet, and you have to take the internet with a grain of salt. The internet is like talk radio, it is enjoyable, educational, but you will get extremes who call in and just bitch and bitch, so I have learned thats what happens when you are allowed to call or post something anomously, you are able to be alittle more frank then you would in person.

I do hear what your saying, and I used to be very frustrated with the internet, and the constant battles between fans who this side of the OOT, and that side of the SE, and that side of the PT, but honestly I just jump into the threads that suit me and if I think it is getting childish, I just don't bother posting.

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I think the quote was taken entirely out of context. I bet if there was video of this, he'd obviously be joking. At least... I hope so. LOL.
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Is it still up for question whether or not this was meant seriously? He was at an awards luncheon giving an award to his in-house publicist in front of an audience of fellow publicists. If, perhaps, he'd said this in a one-on-one interview, that would be one thing. The context is he was trying to get a laugh out of an audience that has experience in trying to sell "dogs." He was being ironic to an audience that would find that specific irony (an award for a guy whose biggest "score" was selling what is generally the consensus "best" of one of the most successful series of all time) funny. If that's not obvious "ball breaking", I don't know what is.
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Originally posted by: JumpmanEpisode V doesn't work without Lucas. He shouldn't get all the credit but he shouldn't be left out either.


Fair enough. Very good.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death