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Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this? — Page 11

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I don't think the PT failed strictly because of the turn. Personally i felt that the emotional angle of Anakin's turn-- an obsession to save a loved one from death which results in him selling his soul to protect Padme, only to have this very act kill her and thus leave him transformed into a monster--is the most brilliant stroke that Lucas came up with since he made Vader and Father Skywalker the same person in 1978. Yeah, the youngling slaughter right afterwards doesn't fit in at all, but overall i though the emotional motivation behind Anakin in Episode III--or at least for most of the film, since the consistency breaks down near the end--was the most compelling and believable part of the entire trilogy. But whether you thought the turn worked, failed, or sorta worked (i am in this category), the PT's fundamental flaws are entirely different--no six-film series could possibly be "ruined" by a mere sequence in one entry. The problem with the PT is that the films were simply poorly made right from the get-go. The writing ranged from acceptable to laughable, the performances were generally not believable, the plotting was ponderous and inconsistent, the directing embarassingly amaturish in most respects, and a lot of the action scenes not very exciting. The cumulative effect of all these things is that the characters were utterly hollow. I just didn't connect to or care about the characters because of all of these factors. Watching Anakin's fireplace love pledge in AOTC for example, or any scene between Obi Wan and him from that film, all i can do is laugh at how bad everything is done. TPM sorta got by because it came off as a self-contained fantasy picture that was light and not too important in the scheme of things, but once we get to the actual story in AOTC this superficiality simply cannot stand. The films were just shittily made, and ROTS didn't have much of a chance because of it. Personally i feel that the first forty or fifty minutes of ROTS is quite an impressive feat in that it partially succeeds in not only making the characters somewhat believable, if only in a minimal way, but that it almost undoes the damage inflicted by the previous films. Personally i find that ROTS works the strongest without the previous two films--you don't know that Anakin was a whiney baby, that Padme is a hollow robot, that Obi Wan and Anakin came off as hating each other, that Anakin and Palpatine had a non-existant relationship, that there was a complete lack of romance between Padme and Anakin, that the jedi were chumps, and that the films were overall dull and uninteresting. With all these things weighing it down, it is suprising that ROTS works in any way.
These same flaws are the same things that also ruin ROTS--inconsistent characters and characterisation, weak dialog and unintelligent plotting; these manifests themselves in the turn scene. Luckily, they were balanced out the first dose of suspence, interesting story development and compelling characterisation that the prequel films had seen, such that many people thought the film worked in spite of the flaws. The first half of ROTS was well done to such an extent that when the film finally returned to the inconsistent levels seen in AOTC it was all the more jarring, especially in the climax where it alternated back forth between them with rapid pace (Anakin and Obi Wan fighting on Mustafar--cool; Emperor becoming a cartoon character--what the hell?; Anakin burning and being rebuilt as Vader--cool; Padme loosing the will to live--what the hell?).
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About Padme losing the will to live: When I saw the movie I thought maybe there was more to it than that. I thought that the sunset "ruminations" scene was trying to imply that Anakin and Padme were mystically linked or something, ala E.T. and Elliot, and when Anakin was physically dying, he was pulling Padme down with her. Then the Emperor snatches Anakin back from death, but it's over for Padme. In many ways I saw Revenge as a do-over of Clones. The Clones love story flopped so he came at it from another, cosmic-y angle. The Anakin/Kenobi "friendship" was weak, so much of the first half of Sith is devoted to doing it better.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You guys are just so resistant to change that you refuse to understand what Lucas did in the end.


That is the most fucking retarded thing I have ever heard. Tell me how I can "understand" a Jar-Jar look-alike shouting "Yippee!" at the end of ROTJ. Oh that's right, you can't explain it, as it was stupid and redundant.
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****Bows**** to Zombie and every post he writes. Sometimes when I read your posts, I start wonder if I wrote it, cause I feel the exact same way.

I to get caught up in the turn too much sometimes, I guess cause it bothers me that Lucas changed it in context, but left the second half of the movie intacted in the other context, and it is so obvious now why going to the temple and killing younglings was from his first 'turn' shoot, and saving Padme was his changed 'turn' shoot.

Zombie, I have to ask you about the PT, cause I was talking to a friend of mine about this. Doesn't the PT seem to be made to be cheesy, yet that is exactly what Lucas was NOT going for? The love story, Grevious' voice, The cackling Emperor in ROTS, Jar Jar mucking it up in TPM, The droid voices comes off as so ridiculous, it makes you think Lucas did that intentionally, but you and I know it wasn't, that is what is sad about the PT.
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Originally posted by: crazyrabbits
That is the most fucking retarded thing I have ever heard. Tell me how I can "understand" a Jar-Jar look-alike shouting "Yippee!" at the end of ROTJ. Oh that's right, you can't explain it, as it was stupid and redundant.


Err....... You mean .... "Weesa Free"

Sorry, nothing else to add it has all been said perfectly.

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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Originally posted by: zombie84
Personally i felt that the emotional angle of Anakin's turn-- an obsession to save a loved one from death which results in him selling his soul to protect Padme, only to have this very act kill her and thus leave him transformed into a monster--is the most brilliant stroke that Lucas came up with since he made Vader and Father Skywalker the same person in 1978. I have to say that I, personally, find it a bit of a stretch. I suppose my opinion is tainted by it's presentation, however. Divorced from the way it was played out in the movies and considered purely as the idea itself it does have merit.

My own idea is that Anakin joined with the Emperor to bring order to the galaxy and honestly believed that what he was doing was right. I think that the saving Padme route still leaves you with the moment when Anakin realises it was just a trick. I think it also feeds directly from the selfish brat character that Luca$h seemed to think was such a great direction to take the character of Luke's dad. Would ANH's Ben Kenobi have been friends with such a person? I think not!
Originally posted by: zombie84
that the jedi were chumps
Awesome! So true...

And so utterly disappointing...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Yeah, the Jedi in the PT turned out to be repressed assholes who were there because they had a blood disease.
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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
No it's hollow for redeeming someone we were never introduced to.


Hah, Go-Mer, I love how you make idiotic replies just to rile people up. It makes me wonder if you truly believe the SE and the "saga" are better. If you can treat truth and reason so lightly, then how am I to believe you are even expressing your honest beliefs and your actual reasoning? Heh, whenever your idiocy is answered, you immediately drop that logical point and bring up yet another. I already know that you spout shit just because you like provoking people, but perhaps that is the end you actually seek. (If you're not allowed to change the topic you simply run away from a conversation.) It's funny. I now believe that there's a good chance that actually you prefer the OT and hate the saga.


And Troll-Mer Tonic runs away again!

Surprise, surprise, surprise.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic<br>I think that if Lucas was "detatched" and if he wasn't worried about making good movies, the prequels wouldn't have been very good.

Explain that.
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Originally posted by: generalfrevious
Yeah, the Jedi in the PT turned out to be repressed assholes who were there because they had a blood disease.


Yeah....I actually thought the Jedi would be cool in the prequels. I honestly didn't give a damn that they got slaughtered. Did anyone else feel like this? Was that really the way we were supposed to feel?



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Nope

I didn't care. I found it quite funny (not ha ha funny) that they all seemed to be shot from behind. That's it, that's all it takes, sneak up and shoot from behind. Anakin shouldn't of taken Obi Wan on, all in his face, with a lightsaber. He should of snuck up from behind with a blaster.

Well that doesn't seem to work as a Jedi killing trick in sports bars at least.

And speaking of Obi Wan, the events of the OT wouldn't of taken place if the Commander Cody's aim was a little bit more 'on' like his other Jedi killing clones. Obi Wan gets knocked out in two movies and then nearly gets blasted by clones and is only alive by chance, how lame. At least he is given his groove back by beating down evil Ani.

I didn't care about the Jedi because I never got a chance to see who they were. Fans only know of them because of the EU, I don't pay any attention to that, nor should I have to.

The only Jedi, other than Obi Wan, Qui Gon and Yoda, that was named was Mace......... and some dude who was dead but his name was used to order a zillion clones. I only know that Mace was supposedly a bad ass and Yoda's right hand man was because I heard it in some web documentary.

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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I know I've said before that I don't like discussing the prequels, but I can't help it...they're like a train wreck and you can't take your eyes off it.

The Jedi in the PT are just like the rebels in the OT. They're the good guys. You're supposed to like them and be rooting for them no matter what happens. I wasn't rooting for the Jedi cuz they weren't really all that likeable. Mace was an asshole, pretty much from the beginning. They all came off as high-fallutin', self-righteous jerkoffs who thought they were the shit.....that's not really how you would preceive the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy to be. The rebels were likeable. There was the pilots in the Death Star attack and Rogue Squadron, General Madine and Mon Mothma...even General Reiken made more of an impression than any of the Jedi.

Take all their dialogue and put it against the Jedi's dialogue in the prequels and see how it measures up. The Jedi dialogue is throwaway dialogue...nothing really noteworthy. Hard for me to care if they aren't endearing at all.
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You focus determined your reality.

I thought it was comparable, and about on par myself.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You focus determined your reality.

I thought it was comparable, and about on par myself.


Do you have something to add to the discussion or are you going to just use sloppy english at me? And what are you talking about anyway?

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You guys couldn't be bothered to care, so you didn't.

I don't see why you blame Lucas for something that was clearly your responsibility.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You guys couldn't be bothered to care, so you didn't.

I don't see why you blame Lucas for something that was clearly your responsibility.



Still not following you there, Gomer....could you maybe elaborate a bit? I have an idea, but I'd rather not guess what's going on in that mind of yours....
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You were acting Like it was Lucas' job to make you give a crap.

I'm saying that was your job, and you weren't very good at it.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You were acting Like it was Lucas' job to make you give a crap.

Um...it is his job to make his audience care. Why would you make a film and not want your audience to care about it in some way? I'm not the only one who thinks this about the Jedi apparently....so that raises some questions about whether Lucas was actually doing his job.

I'm saying that was your job, and you weren't very good at it.


The movie has to be good in the first place for me to do a good job at all.....


Do I sense some hostility from you, Gomer?
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You were acting Like it was Lucas' job to make you give a crap.

I'm saying that was your job, and you weren't very good at it.
Well, as you and I know Go-Mer-Tonic, the technology just simply isn't available yet for Luca$h to create a true audience for the saga according to his "vision"!

This is one of the many reasons why the saga is still not out there as he wants it. But one day it will be. I think we both take comfort in that, right Go-Mer-Tonic?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I am hearing that old man's voice from the movie, Christine and he's saying.....

"You can't polish a turd."
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Originally posted by: Cable-X1
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You were acting Like it was Lucas' job to make you give a crap.

Um...it is his job to make his audience care. Why would you make a film and not want your audience to care about it in some way? I'm not the only one who thinks this about the Jedi apparently....so that raises some questions about whether Lucas was actually doing his job.

I'm saying that was your job, and you weren't very good at it.


The movie has to be good in the first place for me to do a good job at all.....


Do I sense some hostility from you, Gomer?


Run, Troll-Mer! Run for your life!
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic<br>I think that if Lucas was "detatched" and if he wasn't worried about making good movies, the prequels wouldn't have been very good.

Explain that.
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No, it's really up to you to care. Lucas can't make you. If he could do that then everyone would love Star Wars.

Obviously, if you don't care about Star Wars, then there's really nothing the movies or Lucas can do for you.

You have to enjoy great movies like these or you won't.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
No, it's really up to you to care. Lucas can't make you. If he could do that then everyone would love Star Wars.

Yes, he can't make me, but he has to want me and the audience to care. Otherwise, why does he even make movies? He just didn't do a good job of wanting me to care. Otherwise, he would have made the Jedi more endearing instead of making them come off as stuck up elitists whose abilities are determined by little organisms and were so stupid and gullible that they couldn't see what was happening right under their noses. I'm supposed to care about people like that? Fuck 'em, let 'em die. Was I really supposed to think that? Cuz that's what I thought....and the Jedi are good guys too. I NEVER heard of anyone not caring that the good guys died.

...and there was no way he could make everyone love Star Wars no matter what. That's a silly and unrealistic observation that's shouldn't even be made.

Obviously, if you don't care about Star Wars, then there's really nothing the movies or Lucas can do for you.


If I didn't care, then why did I pay mulitple times to see each prequel? I cared enough to give the movies multiple chances and they didn't do it for me...so that means there's something wrong with me, right? And there's something wrong with all the who people who didn't care for them either, right? Please!!! You don't think there might be even the slightest chance that Lucas dropped the ball here? That he made a poor film? It is possible, you know....

You have to enjoy great movies like these or you won't.


I enjoy great movies....these movies were NOT great.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
No, it's really up to you to care. Lucas can't make you. If he could do that then everyone would love Star Wars.

Obviously, if you don't care about Star Wars, then there's really nothing the movies or Lucas can do for you.

You have to enjoy great movies like these or you won't.
Absolutely! It's up to us to love and respect the saga. Luca$h just makes the movies, he doesn't have any influence on how you'll feel about them.

We have a duty to love the movies!

After all, Luca$h is only interested in expressing his "artistic" "vision" in the medium he knows best - film. He gets nothing out of it except the satisfaction of expressing himself.

He deserves total love and honour from everyone for creating these movies and then allowing them to be seen, even though, because they're so personal to him, he'd rather keep them to himself. His generosity is boundless!

Not only does he allow them to be seen, but he gives us the chance to see every version of them that he makes! We can pay to see them and then buy copies of them on video and now DVD. Every time he has new ideas he puts them out there for people to pay to see! He only does it because he loves the movies.

If we don't love them back it's like we're kicking him in the balls! And I can't believe that anyone here would want to do that!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by:Go-Mer-TonicNo, it's really up to you to care. Lucas can't make you. If he could do that then everyone would love Star Wars.

Obviously, if you don't care about Star Wars, then there's really nothing the movies or Lucas can do for you.

You have to enjoy great movies like these or you won't.



You should have said that in your first post on this website, and saved yourself all the wasted time of trying to convince a bunch of people who don't think they are good movies that they are good. As Kenobi says in SW, "Move along."