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Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this? — Page 9

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The rule of 2 seems fine to me. I'm assuming the Emperor didn't quite bring it up yet.
AFTER 20 YEARS?!!!!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The rule of 2 seems fine to me. I'm assuming the Emperor didn't quite bring it up yet.
AFTER 20 YEARS?!!!!


Not to mention that it is doubtful that Anakin would not be aware of the Rule of Two prior to becoming DV. Weren't the Jedi actively seeking out the Sith? Therefore it would stand to reason that all Jedi would be told "Oh, btw, always are there 2, a master and...". So Anakin knows.

So now are we to assume the Emperor never mentioned it hoping DV had no awareness of it? So never in DV's training/learning did they discuss the Sith lineage and how it always progressed in pairs? And DV never brought it up because he was playing dumb in order to somehow trick the Emperor? PUH-lease.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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The rule of 2 was mentioned in Ep 1....
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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try reading for comprehension. the "after 20 years?" bit was referring to the fact that DV worked side by side with the Emperor of decades, & yet neither of them bothered to ever bringthe rule of 2 up in conversation in all that time?
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Originally posted by: canofhumdingers
try reading for comprehension. the "after 20 years?" bit was referring to the fact that DV worked side by side with the Emperor of decades, & yet neither of them bothered to ever bringthe rule of 2 up in conversation in all that time?


try not being a dick and try to imagine shit happening OFF CAMERA.... suspend disbelief for 2 seconds... it's a movie in space.
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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Originally posted by: JediRandy
The rule of 2 was mentioned in Ep 1....

And what's your point? Or rather, what point above are you replying to?

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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Originally posted by: JediRandy
...and try to imagine shit happening OFF CAMERA....

That's we we're doing. Gomer imagines that off-camera during those 20 years together Palpy never brought up the Rule of Two to Vader. Others (myself included) imagine that during those 20 off-camera years some discussion of the Rule took place.

I am also asserting that Anakin (pre-Vader) was aware of the Rule of Two, based on occurrences in the PT.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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This is a bit of a dumb argument to me. I think the Jedi, in all their teaching on the Sith, would obviously learn of the rule of two--they are obviously aware of it, as the only way that the audience is even informed of it is when Yoda talks of it. So obviously Anakin would have known of it.

The real question is: how the fuck do the jedi know of it?? The sith have been hiding for a millenia using this very technique--but then out of the blue Yoda knows about it. What the?? Sloppy writing! This is where the real story flaw lies and the answer is simply that its a plot hole.

The previous debate is merely a by-product of OT versus PT/Saga--ESB was not designed with any rule of two in mind, but with the retroactive changes made by the PT revelation of a "rule of two" existing, ESB can be re-evaluated with this interpretation in mind, if so desired.
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Originally posted by: auximenies
Originally posted by: JediRandy
...and try to imagine shit happening OFF CAMERA....

That's we we're doing. Gomer imagines that off-camera during those 20 years together Palpy never brought up the Rule of Two to Vader. Others (myself included) imagine that during those 20 off-camera years some discussion of the Rule took place.

I am also asserting that Anakin (pre-Vader) was aware of the Rule of Two, based on occurrences in the PT.


exactly
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Originally posted by: zombie84
The real question is: how the fuck do the jedi know of it?? The sith have been hiding for a millenia using this very technique--but then out of the blue Yoda knows about it. What the?? Sloppy writing! This is where the real story flaw lies and the answer is simply that its a plot hole.

Zombie, you mean you aren't aware that the Jedi had been informed of the Rule of Two by the Dark Jedi Kibh Jeen 156 years prior to the appearance of Darth Maul on Tatooine?

Seriously, it is the continual reliance on EU material to make sense of the PT that highlights its many flaws.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Changing the monkey woman to Ian McDairmid was done to fix a mistake in the classic trilogy.

There were no mistakes in the preuquels that had to be covered up.



Well, except the TPM rubber Yoda puppet. That's been nicely covered up with CGI and will, I imagine, be premiering in a box set at a local retailer near you next year.

"Three goofballs and a guy in a monkey suit." - Harrison Ford
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Originally posted by: Fixer
Well, except the TPM rubber Yoda puppet. That's been nicely covered up with CGI and will, I imagine, be premiering in a box set at a local retailer near you next year.
Man, I hope so! And they'd better have given ESB and ROTJ the same treatment. I can't look at that latex motherfucker any more, dude!

Also, I really hope that they've dubbed Temuera's voice over all the Stormtrooper dialogue in the OT, 'cos that just isn't right yet.

They should have Ewan do all of Obi-Wan's force ghost appearances, to keep it consistent with Hayden in ROTJ. For that matter, I'd like to see digital face-replacements on all of Alec Guiness' performances in the OT. It takes me right out of the moment every time I see his stupid, old face!

Hayden should replace that British guy in the Vader unmasking scene, too. Actually, I think he should re-do all of Vader's dialogue as well, since that Jones guy sounds nothing like him! Hell, they didn't even credit him originally, 'cos he's so crap.

All those crappy lightsaber duels will have to go before I'm really happy. They're so slow and boring. And far too short. Annie should duel with Darth Sidious (oh yeah, he should be called "Lord Sidious" by Vader all the time) at the end of ROTJ for, like, half an hour and then cut off his head! That'd be more in-keeping with the PT. And a much more fitting end to the greatest saga ever.

George should do a whole bunch of scenes for Annie in ANH. They obviously didn't have the technology to give Anakin as big a part as he needed in 1977, but he's the whole reason for the saga, man! And he's only in that movie for, like, five minutes!

Plus, they should dub over that guy who treats Annie like a stooge the whole time! Who the fuck does he think he is? That's the One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force, you absolute fucking nobody!!!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: Fixer
Well, except the TPM rubber Yoda puppet. That's been nicely covered up with CGI and will, I imagine, be premiering in a box set at a local retailer near you next year.
Man, I hope so! And they'd better have given ESB and ROTJ the same treatment. I can't look at that latex motherfucker any more, dude!

Also, I really hope that they've dubbed Temuera's voice over all the Stormtrooper dialogue in the OT, 'cos that just isn't right yet.

They should have Ewan do all of Obi-Wan's force ghost appearances, to keep it consistent with Hayden in ROTJ. For that matter, I'd like to see digital face-replacements on all of Alec Guiness' performances in the OT. It takes me right out of the moment every time I see his stupid, old face!

Hayden should replace that British guy in the Vader unmasking scene, too. Actually, I think he should re-do all of Vader's dialogue as well, since that Jones guy sounds nothing like him! Hell, they didn't even credit him originally, 'cos he's so crap.

All those crappy lightsaber duels will have to go before I'm really happy. They're so slow and boring. And far too short. Annie should duel with Darth Sidious (oh yeah, he should be called "Lord Sidious" by Vader all the time) at the end of ROTJ for, like, half an hour and then cut off his head! That'd be more in-keeping with the PT. And a much more fitting end to the greatest saga ever.

George should do a whole bunch of scenes for Annie in ANH. They obviously didn't have the technology to give Anakin as big a part as he needed in 1977, but he's the whole reason for the saga, man! And he's only in that movie for, like, five minutes!

Plus, they should dub over that guy who treats Annie like a stooge the whole time! Who the fuck does he think he is? That's the One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force, you absolute fucking nobody!!!


Whoa, that's one hell of a rant if I've ever seen one.
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You know what, I am beginning to think some of the people here didn't like the prequels very much.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You know what, I am beginning to think some of the people here didn't like the prequels very much.


[WHISPER]Who do you mean, Go-Mer-Tonic? I promise I won't tell![/WHISPER]
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Awesome post, aura! The saga won't be complete until George fixes all of those crappy elements.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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... By first admitting that he made up the whole saga starting with Jedi!
That's why the 2 person rule was never mentioned between the emperor and Vader for 20 years
(Don't get me wrong... SW isn't a whole for me without ROTJ)
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Okay, I have a few things I'd like to bring up. The way I understood it, the "rule of 2" wasn't so much a rule of the Sith but rather the way things always ended up simply because that's the way they Sith rolled. There was always an apprentice learning from the master, then killing the master, and getting his own apprentice. Pretty stupid way to roll. I'd go with a rule of 1 myself. I mean, you'd think they learn eventually that getting an apprentice to do your work for you is a bad idea because he'd just end up killing you. Palpatine obviously tried to prevent that by having a staff turnaround as often as possible (although he obviously kept Vader around for too long... 20 years?! Come on!)

Something that has always bugged me, though, is the apparent notion (or fact, since George talks about it all the time) that Vader's sole ambition is to overthrow the Emperor. I see very little in the OT to support that claim. His actions just aren't consistent with a man trying to kill his boss. In fact, he seems very much like the perfect subservient lapdog to me. The only "evidence" is his speech to Luke in ESB, but I've always interpreted that as a bluff to get Luke to join him. In ROTJ, it's even further established that Vader has no intention of going against Palpatine. Think about the scene between Luke and Vader. Luke does exactly what Vader supposedly wanted him to do from the last movie. Luke actually gives Vader the opportunity to "come with him." It may not have been under the terms that Vader wanted, but it was the closest shot he'd had. Luke was volunteering to ally himself with his father, and Vader just turns it down because he "must obey his master," instead of using the opportunity to bond with his son and team up with him against the Emperor like he apparently wanted.

And during the entire throne room sequence, Palpatine makes it pretty clear that he plans on replacing Vader with Luke, but Vader apparently doesn't mind being trash-talked because not only does he sit there and take it, he actively supports the plan, chasing Luke around and fighting with him just like the Emperor wanted. Are these really the actions of a man who plans on rebelling? Um... no. These are the actions of a whipped little man who would even sacrifice himself to obey what his boss tells him to do.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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That's because the real story is about Luke, and how he was the better man, and the better Jedi, than his bitch father.
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I know that, and you know that, but apparently some people don't seem to realize that. And Anakin's "redemption" at the end makes much more sense when he finally gets the courage to stand up to his master for the right reasons rather than finally enacting his generation-long mutiny plans, which just happen to be for the right reasons.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
And Anakin's "redemption" at the end makes much more sense when he finally gets the courage to stand up to his master for the right reasons rather than finally enacting his generation-long mutiny plans, which just happen to be for the right reasons.


The redemption of Anakin at the end is actually a "resurrection" now. George changed his mind (due to his simplistic understanding of Buddism) and decided that an evil man can never be redeemed. Instead, a good man can be randomly and illogically replaced by an evil man (in his head or something) and then that evil man can be randomly and illogically re-replaced by the first, good man, so long as he has a child who is willing to try and reason with the bad man that has replaced him in a way that . . . .

I give up.

Your points about Vader being totally loyal to Palpatine are correct though, Gaffer. If George had intended Vader to perhaps be rebellious in Empire, he had totally erased that concept for Jedi. We can only conclude that Vader was lying to Luke or, at the most, that he was expressing wishes that could not be fullfilled (because of his level of enslavement).

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
That's because the real story is about Luke, and how he was the better man, and the better Jedi, than his bitch father.

You mean to tell me that the tags such as "From The Adventures of Luke Starkiller" and "From the further adventures of Luke Skywalker" on Star Wars texts weren't because GL wasn't able to use existing technology to realize his original vision of this being a story about Darth Vader? Say it isn't so...............

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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Listen guys, George was being easy on us with his "half-finished" assessment of the OT. There's a lot of work still to do to bring the OT to the standard set by the PT.

His vision is still not realised.

The techniques and facilities required to make Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader the central character of the saga just weren't available in 1977 - 1983. Hell, they aren't even available now! Until they are, tis saga will remain a glorious work in progress! A beautiful building site, if you will! Full of promise!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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What's so bad about finding the meaning of the story as he went along? He says that he set out to create a modern myth, but when he purposely set out with the intention of covering all the Mythological bases, he had all kinds of trouble. But when he just focussed on the characters, and started letting the story unfold, he noticed that many of the components of Myth appeared organically without his direct intention.

It's not like any of you guys were born with a 6 film saga all worked out in your head, why can't Lucas make it up like everyone else in the movie making industry?

At least he does a good job at it.
Your focus determines your reality.
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^^^See, this is what confuses me so much. Apparently some things he admits to making up at a later time, which is fine. But other things he claims are part of his original vision that he wasn't able to realize in the first (or second!) go-round, despite evidence to the contrary. Consequently, I don't know in what context to put his various ideas.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space