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Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this? — Page 8

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Mistakes are meant to be fixed.


Slow down and re-read what Gaf wrote. Mistakes in the telling of the PT lead to changing things in the OT to cover up the new mistakes. Get it? Your knee-jerk reply indicates that you didn't.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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Changing the monkey woman to Ian McDairmid was done to fix a mistake in the classic trilogy.

There were no mistakes in the preuquels that had to be covered up.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Changing the monkey woman to Ian McDairmid was done to fix a mistake in the classic trilogy.

And what about the dialog change? What did that have to do with the fact that Ian McDiarmid was cast as the Emperor for ROTJ? Nothing. It was changed in response to creative decisions made in the PT, which Gaf and others consider to be a mistake.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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The dialogue didn't change in substance, it's still about how Luke is the Son of Anakin Skywalker.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Oh come on. From the new dialogue you know Vader is Luke's father. You didn't know that from the original dialogue.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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how could the monket woman emperor be considered a "mistake"? what the fuck? If anything, it would mean Ian McDiarmid is the mistake--they broke continuity in ROTJ. Therefore all of ROTJ and ROTS need to be re-done with a new CGI monkey woman emperor to fix the mistake of Ian McDiarmid.

Fucking lame go-mer.
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If you ask me the Monkey Woman was lame from the get go.

You only know that Vader and Anakin are the same guy if you have seen the prequels. They talk about Anakin Skywalker as if he's a different person still.

Original Scene:
Darth Vader: What is thy bidding my master

Emperor: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

Darth Vader: I have felt it.

Darth Vader: We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker.

Darth Vader: Yes, my master.

Emperor: He could destroy us.

Darth Vader: He's just a boy, Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

Emperor: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

Emperor: Yes.... Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

Darth Vader: He will join us or die Master. New Special Edition 2004 scene:
Darth Vader: What is thy bidding, my master?

Emperor: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

Darth Vader: I have felt it.

Emperor: We have a new enemy. The young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt, this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.

Darth Vader: How is that possible?

Emperor: Search your feelings Lord Vader, you will know it to be true. He could destroy us.

Darth Vader: He's just a boy, Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

Emperor: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

Emperor: Yes.... Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

Darth Vader: He will join us or die Master.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

Original Scene:
Emperor: We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my master.
Emperor: He could destroy us.

New Special Edition 2004 scene:
Emperor: We have a new enemy. The young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt, this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Vader: How is that possible?
Emperor: Search your feelings Lord Vader, you will know it to be true. He could destroy us.

Why was the dialog changed? To tie it in to creative decisions made in the PT*. No other reason.

*such as the notion that a Jedi shall know no love or the decision to write a story in which Darth Vader believes he has killed Padme, presumably before childbirth.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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actually, if you didn't know that Darth was Luke's father and you watched the new version of the scene, there STILL isn't anything that makes it explicit. The only difference is instead of "son of skywalker" its "the offspring of anakin skywalker". The dialog in this scene is the most confounding change in the SE for me because it really changes nothing, other than making the name "anakin" present.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Mistakes are meant to be fixed.
I would prefer to consider them as being meant to be learned from. To spend one's life fixing mistakes from the past is to be looking always backward and not to one's future.

As Luca$h would no doubt say: "he just can't let things go". Shame he can't see it in himself.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Says one of the many SW fans who can't let go of the past.

The main reason they changed the Emperor hologram in ESB was to tie it into ROTJ.

The prequels were made to also fit with the ROTJ emperor. I don't see anything about this alteration to ESB that accomodates -anything- introduced by the PT.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Let go of the past? Fuck the past. The future is where these "seamless" changes are REALLY gonna stick out. (The future is also where the new dvds will be unwatchable).
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Yeah if you sell your DVD player. I'm keeping mine.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The main reason they changed the Emperor hologram in ESB was to tie it into ROTJ.
Again, I've asked about the dialog. Was it changed because of anything in SW or ROTJ? No.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The prequels were made to also fit with the ROTJ emperor. I don't see anything about this alteration to ESB that accomodates -anything- introduced by the PT.

Vader: How is that possible?

Why would he ask that?
A. Because he thought he had killed Padme prior to her giving birth.
or
B. Because he was playing coy and had never let Palpy in on the little secret that he had knocked up Padme.

Both of these are story ideas from the PT.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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I think it's because Palpatine had never actually explained the birds and the bees to Darth. (Right, Go-Mer?)

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Is the ESB Emperor lame because you know it's a old women with a kick ass voice over dubbed in?

Most people don't know this and I'm sure they don't even notice anything. Clive and Ian sound different but not very.

I'm glad gomer quoted the dialogue because I've only seen that '04 scene once, that was enough.

I'll put this out there in regards to the '04 ESB. How did it them 3 years to work out that the rebel who fucked on their all powerful death star is a Skywalker?

And this from the same movie just 30 minutes earlier;



That is the system and I'm sure Skywalker is with them.........


I don't think I need to point out whose line that is.

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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George Lucas is a retard when it comes to continuity. Heh, the more changes he makes, the worse it gets. And while that's not a crime it's a bit sad.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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To me the idea is Vader knew there was something about Luke when he sensed the Force was strong in him in the trench of the first Death Star.

Luke is his new angle on finally overthrowing the Emperor as per his offer to him on the gantry in Cloud City.

Vader is out in the feild when they discover that the name is Skywalker. That's why he's saying that he knows Skywalker is with them.

He didn't exactly want Palpatine to know he was already looking for him, because then Palpatine would question his loyalty.

He's just playing dumb to the Emperor that whole conversation. They both pretend that three of them could be a happy Sith family, but they both intend to replace the other with Luke.

That's why the Emperor pauses and repeats Yes... He's thinking about that to himself.

To me the biggest reason for this change was to make the Emperor consistant by having Ian playing him.

I guess I can see how the "how is that possible" helps smooth things over with the prequels by tying into what he thought happened to Padme and his potential children. I don't know to me it's basically the same scene with the consistant emperor.

Really the original monkey woman wasn't quite lame in it's own right. I can see why some of you even prefer that Emperor to the ROTJ version. But after really loving the way Ian played him in ROTJ (and now the prequels), the ESB version just sort of stuck out more to me.
Your focus determines your reality.
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The whole rule of 2 totally goes against everything set up in ESB & ROTJ. If there was a rule of 2 as Yoda talks about in TPM, and presumably EVERY Jedi is told this after QuiGon is killed, than it contradicts the OT.

Even though in the OT Vader and Emperor are both plotting against each other to turn Luke to their side and kill and then turn on the other, if there is a rule of two, it shouldn 't have even been talked about?

Think about it, if there is a rule of 2 established by the Sith, then why would The Emperor and Vader talk in ESB about turning Luke to their side, even though they are both lying to each other? If there is a rule of two, and they supposedly are saying here is the third wheel to help us rule the galaxy, then it exposes that one of them has to go, and instead of plotting like The Emperor and Vader do in ROTJ, it is talked about in ESB?

Before the PT there was no rule of 2 crap, so even though they The Emperor and Vader are plotting against each other in ESB & ROTJ, it is believable that they both feel the other is genuine since there is no limit on the amount of sith at once. But if there are only 2 siths allowed at once, then the conversation in ESB now make NO sense, because they are both 'showing their cards' before their motives are finally shown at the end of ROTJ.

Another plot hole that the PT created.
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That's kind of why I ignore the PT, CO. It's hard enough to keep continuity between 3 SW films let alone 6. That and I don't particularly care for them.

And if we want to discuss lame Emperors, I think Ian's in ROTS takes the cake. He was quite good at playing the politician Palpatine, but so over the top once he became the halloween masked buffoon.

George had some 20 years to have Palpatine's visage slowly become twisted by the dark side into what appears on screen in ROTJ or ESB even, yet he decided he'd have some make up whacked on and have him gnarly and decrepit in an instant.

http://www.cybertronical.com/allsites/starwars/main/characters/darth_sidious/ds.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/light_sabe_r/sidious.jpg

Which do you think is a better looking newly declared Emperor?

Me thinks that what was originally planned. Look how decidedly younger ROTS Palpatine looks compared to AOTC Palpatine.

http://obix1.com/Off_Site/Palpatine-Saga.jpg

Ian looks freakin' old in AOTC with his added Mr Burns liver spots. Maybe in the the SE PT ILM can CG Ian so he doesn't look so ancient and more in keeping with his appearence in ROTS.

Pictures credited to google images.

"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt

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Originally posted by: CO
Luke, Leia, and Han don't give great performances in SW '77, but their chemistry is unmatched for any film I have ever seen, and their humor is top notch too. Leia yelling at Han, Han being a pompous ass, Luke being the good guy, that is all they needed to do in the first SW movie, just play their part, and if you look at it that way, that is the reason the movie is a classic, it didn't need great performances like ESB did, cause the movie wasn't as intimate and the characters weren't as fleshed out.

That's exactly what makes Star Wars better than Empire (for me, anyway). I really love the fact that the three of them are strangers and that they don't get along particularly well. That tension, that unfamiliarity and distrust of each other makes for great chemistry.

The all-for-one, one-for-all feel of the characters, as well as the kinder, gentler Han and Leia characters takes the edge off in Empire. That edginess and tension are what I liked so much in Star Wars and I miss it in Empire. For me, Empire is much less an adventure and more of a story.

It's very similar to Jaws. The heart of that story is the interaction of the three characters on the boat, not the shark, the town, or people getting attacked while swimming. It's much deeper than that. It's the interaction of three people who are together because they have to be - not because they want to be. There's tension and distrust and it makes for a great feel between the characters. Star Wars had that same tension. Strangers thrown into a situation - not friends working together.

I'm in the minority for sure, but I much prefer Star Wars over Empire because of the unknown feeling that is so palpable throughout. Everything is unknown in Star Wars - where they're going, how they're going to get there, who this Vader person is, what the princess will be like, whether or not they can count on each other, how they're going to survive, etc. The viewer doesn't know what's going to happen and neither do the main characters.

That feeling is absent in Empire. It's more of a "our heroes on a mission" story as opposed to an outer space adventure in a far-off galaxy. I know Empire has better acting, better directing, better photography, special effects, etc, but there's more to a great film than it's mechanics. There's that certain je ne sais quoi that can't be explained, that a select few films ever have. For me, Star Wars has it and Empire doesn't.

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Originally posted by: see you auntie
And this from the same movie just 30 minutes earlier:
That is the system and I'm sure Skywalker is with them.........


Heh. Forgot about that. Which leaves this...

B. Because he was playing coy and had never let Palpy in on the little secret that he had knocked up Padme.

...as the reason Vader asks "How is that possible?". And going along with Gomer on this, let's then presume that

"He didn't exactly want Palpatine to know he was already looking for him, because then Palpatine would question his loyalty."

Yet he announces on the Star Destroyer that he's sure Skywalker is there on Hoth? If you're trying to keep something from the Emperor, it's doubtful that you'd speak of it so casually in the presence of Imperial officers.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
He's just playing dumb to the Emperor that whole conversation. They both pretend that three of them could be a happy Sith family, but they both intend to replace the other with Luke.

Why would they pretend that if a rule of 2 exists? And if they are thinking about rescinding the Rule of Two, would this not be discussed (as CO pointed out)? Especially because this was a prevalent idea in the PT. After all this 6-episode saga is supposed to be a cohesive piece, is it not?


BTW, it seems to me to be pretty dumb (from the writer/creator's perspective) to limit the Sith to 2 lords. Why limit yourself (as a writer)? For no good reason that I can see. Was GL trying to rationalize why the Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader in ROTJ? That's easily explained. He wanted Luke to kill Vader and take his place not because of any rule of 2 nonsense, but because such an act would propel him to the dark side. And what about Vader wanting Luke to join him and do away with the Emperor? Simple. Vader wanted to be top dog, and therefore the Emperor had to be eliminated. No "rule of 2" necessary.

Quite simply, the notion of the rule of two in the PT contradicts --or at least muddles-- a plot point in the OT. And even though GL made a change to ESB, he didn't correct the mistake. For the 2007 box the following dialog change should be made for ESB:

Emperor: We have a new enemy. The young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt, this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.

Darth Vader: How is that possible?

Emperor: Search your feelings Lord Vader, you will know it to be true. He could destroy us.

Darth Vader: He's just a boy, Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

Emperor: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

Emperor: Yes.... but what of the Rule of Two?

Darth Vader: Well, we can ignore it, right? I mean, who is there but us? Let's make our own Sith rules. The first one we'll call "The Rule of Three". Whatta you think?

Emperor: Yes. Young Skywalker would be a great asset. Can he be turned?

Darth Vader: Well, I'm not exactly aware of any of his anxieties or dreams or self doubts, but I can probably get into his head. He will join us or die Master.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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The rule of 2 seems fine to me. I'm assuming the Emperor didn't quite bring it up yet. The same thing happened to DooKu.

I don't know, I think it's a really interesting addition to the lore of the Sith. Makes them more evil than your average super villain.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Star Wars had that same tension. Strangers thrown into a situation - not friends working together.

I'm in the minority for sure, but I much prefer Star Wars over Empire because of the unknown feeling that is so palpable throughout. Everything is unknown in Star Wars - where they're going, how they're going to get there, who this Vader person is, what the princess will be like, whether or not they can count on each other, how they're going to survive, etc. The viewer doesn't know what's going to happen and neither do the main characters.

That feeling is absent in Empire. It's more of a "our heroes on a mission" story as opposed to an outer space adventure in a far-off galaxy.


I think that's one of the problems with sequels in general. There is often more freedom in the story - because far less set-up is needed. But once the characters all know each other, the tension and discovery that is so wonderful about characters getting to know each other is lost.

It's a trade-off that I don't think works in sequels' favor. And I agree with Anchorhead that it didn't work out too well for The Empire Strikes Back.



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Originally posted by: Anchorhead

I'm in the minority for sure, but I much prefer Star Wars over Empire because of the unknown feeling that is so palpable throughout. Everything is unknown in Star Wars - where they're going, how they're going to get there, who this Vader person is, what the princess will be like, whether or not they can count on each other, how they're going to survive, etc. The viewer doesn't know what's going to happen and neither do the main characters.
.


Don't be swayed by the internet popularity of ESB and think it is everyones favorite. I love ESB just as much as everyone here, but my favorite will always be SW.

SW will always be the most popular among MASS movie going fans, and the simple fact is that they just don't take time to post on SW websites when they only love one movie. I will always go to the box office grosses of the SE in 1997:

SW - 136 million
ESB - 67 million
ROTJ - 45 million

There is a reason that SW made more money then ESB/ROTJ combined, the masses always loved it, and ESB/ROTJ only appealed to diehard SW fans. Now those diehard SW fans are a HUGE fanbase in itself, but compared to the fanbase that loves the original, it doesn't even come close. Just remember, by 1997, ESB was already popping up as the classic of the series by many SW fans, or better yet by SciFi fans as the greatest scifi movie ever, and if that were so true, why would it gross half of SW in 1997?

This site is populated of mostly OOT fans, TFN is populated of mostly SE/PT fans, and there really isn't a site that just represents SW 1977 fans, and that is why it always seems that the original SW doesn't get the credit it deserves as probably one of the greatest films ever. IMO.