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Info: Superman II Donner, and III & IV extended edits — Page 4

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Again and again, I think the amnesia kiss should stay. And the Diner.

And as for a trilogy, I suggested on taking the bests parts of SUPERMAN III, and insert it into SUPERMAN IV -which would have scenes cut out, obviously- and create a new SUPERMAN III, that is actually continuing SUPERMAN II's story instead of sequeling it.

Maybe if a fan cut of SUPERMAN II ended like you said, with Lois knowing, and then the SUPERMAN III I mentioned ended with the amnesia kiss, and the whole film somehow worked around the plot so that Lois and Clark know each, then I'm in!
My life is really... Complex!

Batman Returns
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Originally posted by: Jobel
I've actually just spent the last two nights creating my own cut of II. Which is now completed and authored. I did it purely for my own pleasure to create a cut that I could consider to be canonical. Which means the Paris scene back in, and the magic kiss at the end. Most of the middle of the film is the Donner cut, Brando back in and York out. all the extra Luthor stuff included. But with the addition of extra Niagra scenes, including the original clark to superman reveal. All the action sequences are Donner cut, which means stupid lester humour is gone. So what I have now is a more serious, but hopefully more complete viewing experience of the film. It's got the Donner opening titles and the Lester End titles, just to balnce it out. PAL running time is 2 hours and 6 minutes.

NONE has commented on this!

Great job, Jobel. Say, what do you think of that film now? Do you feel its better in some way? Will you make it available?
My life is really... Complex!

Batman Returns
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Originally posted by: Batman Beyond
Originally posted by: Jobel
I've actually just spent the last two nights creating my own cut of II. Which is now completed and authored. I did it purely for my own pleasure to create a cut that I could consider to be canonical. Which means the Paris scene back in, and the magic kiss at the end. Most of the middle of the film is the Donner cut, Brando back in and York out. all the extra Luthor stuff included. But with the addition of extra Niagra scenes, including the original clark to superman reveal. All the action sequences are Donner cut, which means stupid lester humour is gone. So what I have now is a more serious, but hopefully more complete viewing experience of the film. It's got the Donner opening titles and the Lester End titles, just to balnce it out. PAL running time is 2 hours and 6 minutes.

NONE has commented on this!

Great job, Jobel. Say, what do you think of that film now? Do you feel its better in some way? Will you make it available?


Thanks. I think as a film it's more enjoyable now. If I were to show somebody that had never seen the films before I would show them my version of II.

Although I've had some experience of editing before over the years, this is my first fan edit of a film. I'm not up on torrents and stuff, and I'm based in the UK, so maybe if I could get a disc out to a UK member who could maybe take it from there.
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This sounds like a good edit of Superman 2, this is partly along the lines of what I was thinking of for a edit salvaging some of the Lester footage but keeping alot of the Donner footage, I live in the UK and am interested in getting a copy of this somehow but would be unable to download/upload but can send a blank DL disc if ok....
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Originally posted by: The Bizzle
Again, if you think that, then why are you inserting yourself into a discussion where people are trying to figure out how to tie them together even CLOSER? . . . "It's done. It's on DVD. Good night."
It's not that hard, man.


"Inserting myself"? I started this thread, in case you hadn't noticed. The discussion of SR is a separate discussion from the original topic, which is about a Superman II edit combining Lester and Donner. Nothing to do with Returns or tying it in. Working with III and IV also, yes, but not Returns. So who's the one wasting "thousands of words"? It went from a suggestion to something of the utmost importance. For the purposes of making the best Superman II edit, Returns is an afterthought.

"It's done" refers to the fact that Returns is done. This isn't about making a Returns edit (although there should be more discussion about improving that flawed sum'bitch... Superman ReReturns?). Returns *already* ties into the previous movies, so again-- why is its tying in to an unrelated fan edit so important, when it's not the point? Don't get pissed at me because of a tangent, man.

It's not that hard, man.

I guess I should've specified this as a "CHRISTOPHER REEVE SUPERMAN EDIT" thread.
We don't have enough road to get up to 88.
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The conversation VEERED to a topic where a couple were talking about a trilogy out of Superman I, Superman II, and Superman Returns. You may have intended one thing to happen in the thread you started, but it went somewhere else, and people jumped on there. Me being one of them. It happens, yunno?

It's not like a personal insult to your or something, but the fact you started the thread doesn't change what I said earlier about you not actually adding anything to that particular discussion inside the thread. That's what I'm pointing out. The thread you started veered into something else, and grew from there. Whether it's something you WANTED it to grow into somthing else doesn't really matter for the purposes of the conversation going where it organically went.

I'm not pissed off, it's just once the thread branched, you seemed to not notice that it had, and your counter-arguments became parallel and pointless for the purposes of the discussion that had sparked off, making the almost foot-stamping pouty authority you were tossing around seem extra weird. Which is why I was reacting like "Whoa..wait, what?"

That's not a fist-shaking "Goddamn you!" type thing, and that's not what I'm doing.



The Best Show You've Never Heard
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I DO hope you've corrected that shot in the Metropolis battle scene that was flipped in the film and never corrected in any of the DVD releases of SII. For anyone who's missed it - and I don't see how you could(!) - it follows the shots of Zod catching the wall segment he's "heat-rayed" from the crane cable and Superman looking down at the crowd. Another example of the sloppiness that earned SII such disdain in my eyes. (I mean, if you're going to flip an insert shot, make sure it doesn't have any freakin' BILLBOARDS or "NO ENTRY" signs in it!)

For the record, two other things I HATED about SII:
    The British accents on the children of East Houston, Idaho and Metropolis

    The cheesy bit of having the helicopter "crash" behind the barn to avoid having to do a more elaborate effect


Really - don't get me started on SII! :^D
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Here's a clip I found in the Supercinema.co.uk forums that has both Lara and Jor-el in the depowering scene. I did not make this I'm jsut passing it on. I hope it give some inspirations for these recuts.

Here
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I'm one of the main culprits behind the "Superman Returns" tangent. I was just trying to point out how (in my opinion) the ending onf the Donner Cut doesn't make sense on any level: not as a sequel to S:TM, not as a conclusion to SII, and not as a prequel to SR. Bizzle sees things differently based on his interpretation of the time traveling, and that's his opinion. I think all of this debate could be solved by a simple "seamless branching" option on a fan edit of II. I don't know if that can be done on a non-professional DVD, but if so that would take care of the differences of opinion on the ending without having to make multiple fan cuts. Option 1 would be the ending as per the Donner Cut, Option 2 would be as per the Lester Cut, and Option 3 would have Lois keep the secret and go like this: Balcony/Diner/White House/Flyover. I'm no expert in DVD authoring, but hopefully that can be accomplished.
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I don't want to argue how someone should do the "definitive" Superman II cut, but the idea of combining Superman 3+4 has a big flaw, the big plotholes in part 4! Okay, with the deleted scenes you probably can repair the damage on Superman 4, but the state those scenes are in...
Okay, most of us probably can ignore the damage to the print (probably even repair some of the damages) but the SFX scenes are mostly incomplete. To finish those, we would require the seperate scenes, not the composited ones. I don't see a solution for that. After all, we would end with a broken Superman 3 fanedit.
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Actually, it wouldn't be such a bad idea. The nuclear dissarmament plot could be fused with Superman vs. Superman and other details could fall into place. It just needs a little open mind, thats all.

Originally posted by: booah
Originally posted by: The Bizzle
Again, if you think that, then why are you inserting yourself into a discussion where people are trying to figure out how to tie them together even CLOSER? . . . "It's done. It's on DVD. Good night."
It's not that hard, man.


"Inserting myself"? I started this thread, in case you hadn't noticed. The discussion of SR is a separate discussion from the original topic, which is about a Superman II edit combining Lester and Donner. Nothing to do with Returns or tying it in. Working with III and IV also, yes, but not Returns. So who's the one wasting "thousands of words"? It went from a suggestion to something of the utmost importance. For the purposes of making the best Superman II edit, Returns is an afterthought.

"It's done" refers to the fact that Returns is done. This isn't about making a Returns edit (although there should be more discussion about improving that flawed sum'bitch... Superman ReReturns?). Returns *already* ties into the previous movies, so again-- why is its tying in to an unrelated fan edit so important, when it's not the point? Don't get pissed at me because of a tangent, man.

It's not that hard, man.

I guess I should've specified this as a "CHRISTOPHER REEVE SUPERMAN EDIT" thread.

I don't get you. One scene thats actually well played, to be left in to allow another sequel to follow afterwards, constitutes for SINGER/.SR RE-EDIT? Come on. Its one lousy scene that enables the proposed definitive ending for Superman II to sit well with STM, while also allowing us, viewers, believe that theit story continues on... And it does, with SR. So the necessity of it isn't in question. Its about its compability with what exists out there. Frankly, you're annihilating fans this way.

Anyway, to each their own... BTW, I'm in favor of Courage's idea. Perhaps branching is the best thing. Next to that is three re-edits, that the same definitive cut with three different ending. A three disk set, ideally. What do you think of that?
My life is really... Complex!

Batman Returns
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When it comes to Superman2 , it's ALL about the ending. People will debate everything else in the Donner/Lester/Deleted/Extended material for years to come, but whoever can come up with a satisfying ending to that movie will be a genius.
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Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
When it comes to Superman2 , it's ALL about the ending. People will debate everything else in the Donner/Lester/Deleted/Extended material for years to come, but whoever can come up with a satisfying ending to that movie will be a genius.

Yes...a GENIUS! Muwahaha! We'll just see about that...

Anyway, over the weekend I had some time to sit down and put together a very rough "Ultimate Superman II" in Womble. The base source is The Richard Donner Cut (RDC), with various Lester bits throughout, and a couple of deletes scenes (which I know are not up the the quality of the rest of the film, but I really think they are necessary for the story). Before I post a scene-by-scene outline, there are a few key points that are in need of discussion:

"Freshly Squeezed" Orange Juice: This is a nice friendship scene between Lois & Clark, but there's really no place for it in the RDC-inspired Ultimate Cut, at least none that I can find. Unless anyone can think of a way to fit it in, all the references to "freshly squeezed" orange juice will have to be edtied out.

Clark's Secret Revealed: This ties into three scenes, the first Niagra exterior where Superman appears, the second where Lois jumps in the river, and the third where Lois discovers he is Superman. I think the RDC cut the first scene a bit short, but I'm not sure where to cut it off without the "No orange juice?" line to end it on. The second scene is a real head scratcher as it is extremely repetitive of the Daily Planet opening. It would take some serious editing to make it fit as a possible second attempt of Lois to prove Clark is Superman. Then there is the big reveal scene. Now I like the concept of the scene in the RDC, but let's face it: its screentest nature takes out out of the film. Clark's changing physical appearence I could live with, but the changing GLASSES? No way. And on top of that, there is no logical transition from the the end of the screentest to Superman & Lois flying to the Fortress. This leaves us with the infamous "Pink Bear" scene from the Lester cut. I actually think this is a good scene that really builds the romance and has some great acting. Of course the problem with using it is it references the "jumping in the river scene." It's all very complicated. What I currently have is a fade from the deleted Lex scene (mentioned below) to Lois' line "Clark, can you hand me that brush over there?" as I have excised the jumping in the river scene completely. Needless to say this sequence of events needs a lot of work. Ideas anyone?

Deleted Scene: Lex & Miss Tessmacher Go South. I put this scene after the Villains land at the lake/discover heat vision scene (which was split for the RDC, but I have put them back together). I think it's good in that Lex reasons out the arrival of the Supervillains and that Superman set them free with his missle. It also gives Miss Tessmacher another scene before dissapearing for the remainder of the film.

Superman Loses His Powers: Ideally this scene would transition from the end of the RDC to the end of the Lester cut, which once again builds the romance ("Just say that you love me.") and had them walking off to the bed. Editing around Lois' wardrobe changes and getting the lights back from red to white will be trickly and most likely beyond my capabilities. Ideas anyone?

Clark & Lois in Bed: I think it's important for this to occur after he gives up his powers. Otherwise why would he have to give up his powers...get it? I placed this in the middle of the villains storming the White House, just before they bust into the Oval Office. I think it's an effective place for this short moment.

Superman Regains His Powers: The sequence of events in Lester's version is far superior to the RDC. Fading from the Diner to the Fortress, cutting to the White House, then cutting to the Daily Planet. That's how I've sequenced things in this cut. Also, I think the Lester scene of Clark in the darkened Fortress is better than Donner's. If there was any way to use Lester's version up until Clark putting the crystal in the console, I'd want to do it that way, but I'm not sure if that's possible. Ideas anyone?

Daily Planet Confrontation: Lex's "Australia" to the Globe at the planet is a very effective cut, but intercutting the Donner and Lester footage here to make the scene flow is tricky. Honestly I just skipped over trying to work this out, but I'm sure if I examine the footage I can come up with something. Lester's return of Superman will definitely be used, as the build-up and pay-off is far superior to Donner's. ("Would you care to step outside?")

Deleted Scene: Artic Police. This gives some resolution to what happens to Lex and the villains, other than Supeman leaving them to die in the Fortress. Omitting "the Smallville Smasher" is thankfully an easy edit.

The End: In my verison, we'd cut from Superman flying away from Lois' apartment to Lester's scene of the next day at the Planet. "Freshly squeezed" orange juice will be edited out. I've also considered editing out "What's happening in the world?" (to infer the memory loss was only of Clark=Superman, which is how I interpret it), but that doesn't look like it'll work. Inserting the deleted scene of Clark at the elevators is a possibility, but it might seem too out of place, and it really isn't necessary. From the Planet it would be the Lester version through the end: Diner/White House/Flyover.

I've added a a bit more Lester here and there and resequenced a few things, but those are the major points I need some input on. So, again I ask, ideas anyone?
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Some good calls there, CC.

I prefer Lois in the river to Lois out the window for a couple of reasons: It gives her character arc time to build, and she isn't publicly humiliated. Also, Clark's heroics don't take place in front of a crowd. There might be a way to keep her drawing glasses on the picture at the beginning-- let's say she keeps her hunch to herself until they're away from the Planet offices.
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Agreed, Lois jumping out the window is a bad idea.

It just seems silly that she'd reach such a conclusion so early on in the film. The idea of her jumping out onto concrete as opposed to water, (as in the Lester cut) is just totally unbelievable no matter how sure she is.


Forever a Christopher Reeve Superman Movie Fan.
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Are we talking about the same movie where an alien who looks just like a human comes to earth with amazing strength, the ability to fly, and other amazing powers?
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Are we talking about the same movie where an alien who looks just like a human comes to earth with amazing strength, the ability to fly, and other amazing powers?


VERISIMILITUDE!
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Well a big issue here is the deletion of the Paris opening. If that is left in, the majority of the Lester stuff I want to use would fall right into place. Although over the years as I've learned the behing-the-scenes story of II, I've grown to dislike the entire sequence for getting in the way of the "two parts of the same story" idea. Supeman freeing the villains with the missles from I always seemed like such a great idea to me, tying things together quite nicely. So I have every intention NOT to use the Paris sequence, even though that means losing arguably the best Clark/Superman transition of the series (the alley change).

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with trying to use leftover footage for an ultimate Christopher Reeve Superman III. That would be a seperate project entirely, so if there are arguments to keep Paris in Superman II, let them be heard.
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I mentioned this before, but yeah, cutting the Paris sequence (warts and all) is a problem. If we're talking stand-alone sequel, then it's good to have some undiluted Superman action up front (it might be possible to move Niagara up, but not by much), and if we're talking combo 1&2 edit we have to figure out how it dovetails with the already problematic ending of 1.

Do we see the villains freed before Superman turns back time (if he does)? Do we pick up on the missile only after "Maybe... if he's lucky?" I kind of like the idea of 1 ending with "FREEE!" but then that means the missile took its sweet time exploding (unless we explore the 'parallel time-travelling Superman' idea) and there was no 'double jeopardy' after all.

Separate topic: Miss Tessmacher. Now that we have an alternate jailbreak sequence on the Donner disc, how about using it at the end of 2? Maybe after the credits?
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Originally posted by: strangelove
Separate topic: Miss Tessmacher. Now that we have an alternate jailbreak sequence on the Donner disc, how about using it at the end of 2? Maybe after the credits?

You know I thought about that myself, but it wouldn't exactly jive with Superman Returns. Of course there some of you who could care less about tying-into SR, but that's the way I see it.

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Originally posted by: Ollie


It just seems silly that she'd reach such a conclusion so early on in the film. .



Not really, because in the Donner version of the film it starts straight after the end of the previous film, and she'd already started to suspect at the end of the first film.
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Well a big issue here is the deletion of the Paris opening. If that is left in, the majority of the Lester stuff I want to use would fall right into place. Although over the years as I've learned the behing-the-scenes story of II, I've grown to dislike the entire sequence for getting in the way of the "two parts of the same story" idea. Supeman freeing the villains with the missles from I always seemed like such a great idea to me, tying things together quite nicely. So I have every intention NOT to use the Paris sequence, even though that means losing arguably the best Clark/Superman transition of the series (the alley change).

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with trying to use leftover footage for an ultimate Christopher Reeve Superman III. That would be a seperate project entirely, so if there are arguments to keep Paris in Superman II, let them be heard.


I left the Paris scene in for my cut. It's just too much of an enjoyable sequence.
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You know I thought about that myself, but it wouldn't exactly jive with Superman Returns. Of course there some of you who could care less about tying-into SR,


Yeah, and I'm one of them. My ideas here are more oriented towards leading into a composite III/IV sequel. Not to drag this discussion off-topic yet again, but I just don't see SR sharing a proper continuity with the Reeve films. It's like insisting that Return to Oz use "Over the Rainbow" just because it adopted MGM's image of the Ruby Slippers instead of the silver ones in the books.
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Originally posted by: strangelove
My ideas here are more oriented towards leading into a composite III/IV sequel.

That being the case, would you be in favor of "saving" the Paris stuff for the "composite sequel" as you called it? I really wasn't imagining this Ultimate Superman II tying-in to a III/IV combination, but certainly assuming that it would, the Paris stuff would definitely help it out, no?
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That being the case, would you be in favor of "saving" the Paris stuff for the "composite sequel" as you called it? I really wasn't imagining this Ultimate Superman II tying-in to a III/IV combination, but certainly assuming that it would, the Paris stuff would definitely help it out, no?


Credit where due-- a III/IV edit wasn't my idea but I'm intrigued by it.

Moving Paris ahead might not be a bad thought-- it could take the place of the subway sequence in IV, and tie into the concept of throwing nuclear weapons into space. I still think an ideal II needs a Supes-on-the-job episode at the top, as in the Lester version.

Ooh ooh. What if 'I' ends with "FREEE!" and 'II' opens on the moon? FX challenge: a cosmic zoom over audio montage of Jor-El and Lara from 'I', discussing Kal-el's chances on Earth, ending with "he will never be alone..." as we close on the lunar surface.