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Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 59
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I just have a real problem with the way it was done. In the past, watching AOTC with others, there were just a lot of smirks and laughs at the way this was done (including myself). Maybe it’s just because I’ve seen much, much better. Maybe I just haven’t watched enough recent movies to know any better, I don’t know- maybe it’s fine by modern standards.
To be blunt, I just think it’s really bad, but I guess there’s not much to be done about it. Thank goodness for John Williams for making the scene at least watcheable.
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I'm worried that 108 minutes is too short for a Star Wars movie. Perhaps I could add a re-edited version of Padme's plea to the Senate. It is a really tight film now (as it should be), but I guess the problem is that there are very few long dialogue scenes, usually because part of the scene was unusable. The exceptions to this would be the two Lama-Su scenes, the fireplace scene with Padme and Anakin, and a few others.
But I want this to feel like a full-fledged movie, and now I realize that I have more than enough room to flesh out the story a little bit. I deleted the deleted scene (that sounds funny) between Mace and Obi-Wan because it was visually boring and all they talk about are Anakin's childhood attraction to Padme (*snip*) and "the prophecy", which left me without a scene long enough to be included.
Hope this makes sense...
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
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That's kind of what I was thinking as well. I've watched most of my movie now (although in pieces, and containing encoding errors). I think IF I can get the whole "natural-sounding voice" thing worked out, then this thing will be gold. I honestly believe that.
My plan is this- I've downloaded a trial version of the "Antares Tube" plugin and another plugin as well. What these do is they create the sound of the recordings as if they were being played back on analogue equipment, in a very high-quality and unique way. Here's the catch- I don't have a ton of money and these plugins are very expensive.
These trial versions are actually full-featured for 14 days. So what I'm going to do is get the film completely ready in every other way, and then either in Jan. or in Feb. (hopefully not Feb.), I will install the plugin and work like mad to get the sound I want on all of the dialogue in that period of time...
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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Originally posted by: Trooperman
If people don't seem to mind the end, then I guess I'll leave it.
Remember Trooperman, this is YOUR edit. At the end of the day, make a decision that YOUR happy with, regardless of what anyone (including on these boards) says. Sure, take our advice on board, but your putting your name to this version of the film so as long as its watchable by your standards, that's the most important thing.
That's cool.
I agree it was cool/poignant to see Anakin with his claw and Padme holding it but is it really that important? I mean we see Anakin in the next film with his golden limb. You could argue this adds greater emphasis to seeing it in ROTS rather than AOTC. Again, its a trade off.
I just have a real problem with the way it was done. In the past, watching AOTC with others, there were just a lot of smirks and laughs at the way this was done (including myself). Maybe it’s just because I’ve seen much, much better. Maybe I just haven’t watched enough recent movies to know any better, I don’t know- maybe it’s fine by modern standards.
To be blunt, I just think it’s really bad, but I guess there’s not much to be done about it. Thank goodness for John Williams for making the scene at least watcheable.
If people don't seem to mind the end, then I guess I'll leave it.
Remember Trooperman, this is YOUR edit. At the end of the day, make a decision that YOUR happy with, regardless of what anyone (including on these boards) says. Sure, take our advice on board, but your putting your name to this version of the film so as long as its watchable by your standards, that's the most important thing.
I really like the idea of ending with the kiss on the balcony scene; trouble is, I already used part of it as follow-up to the rejection, so it would be repeat footage. Can’t do it. Also, you’re losing Anakin with his golden claw, which is probably an important part to keep.
That's cool.
I agree it was cool/poignant to see Anakin with his claw and Padme holding it but is it really that important? I mean we see Anakin in the next film with his golden limb. You could argue this adds greater emphasis to seeing it in ROTS rather than AOTC. Again, its a trade off.I just have a real problem with the way it was done. In the past, watching AOTC with others, there were just a lot of smirks and laughs at the way this was done (including myself). Maybe it’s just because I’ve seen much, much better. Maybe I just haven’t watched enough recent movies to know any better, I don’t know- maybe it’s fine by modern standards.
To be blunt, I just think it’s really bad, but I guess there’s not much to be done about it. Thank goodness for John Williams for making the scene at least watcheable.
There's nothing wrong with being blunt at all mate.
I agree with you. This scene is bad (sorry Marvolo/musicman/C3PX et al). I think the more you watch AOTC, the more there is the risk of becoming (in a way) desensitized to some elements of it (the hopelessly executed romance scenes for example). I too think it could have been done much better in AOTC and no, modern standards are still higher than what's on offer in Lucas' world. Look at LOTR for subtley/believability in the romance/love scenes. Not so heavily cliched and much more engaging. Any Hollywood/modern day love story is more believable than the tripe we're fed in AOTC. Maybe I've spent too many nights watching chick-flicks with my girlfriend to know that Christensen/Portman's chemistry is severely lacking.
Maybe hit some of your female friends up for advice on this particular element of your edit. While this might seem a crazy hair brained idea, remember distance from a project and fresh eyes (namely audiences who don't frequent SW forums or who aren't as familiar with the films) can offer great insight into something you might have otherwise missed.
Peace.
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FINISHED:
The Sith Revealed - A Scrapbook
Episode III The Video Game - The Movie
24: The Missing Day
Star Wars - The Interactive Board Game DVD
Battlefront - Journal of the 501st
The Clones Revealed
email me for details daveytod AT btinternet DOT com
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Originally posted by: Trooperman
I'm worried that 108 minutes is too short for a Star Wars movie.
I'm worried that 108 minutes is too short for a Star Wars movie.
Don't sweat it. Some movies are 1.5 hours and they're able to tell whatever story they're telling. I understand you're saying "for a Star Wars movie", but that shouldn't matter if you've tightened it up.
I've got two different Ep.2 fan edits that I have yet to sit through. Maybe knowing that this one won't be lengthy will allow me to take the time to watch it!
Pink Floyd -- First in Space
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Originally posted by: Dantha Fodder
There's nothing wrong with being blunt at all mate. I agree with you. This scene is bad (sorry Marvolo/musicman/C3PX et al). I think the more you watch AOTC, the more there is the risk of becoming (in a way) desensitized to some elements of it (the hopelessly executed romance scenes for example).
There's nothing wrong with being blunt at all mate.
I agree with you. This scene is bad (sorry Marvolo/musicman/C3PX et al). I think the more you watch AOTC, the more there is the risk of becoming (in a way) desensitized to some elements of it (the hopelessly executed romance scenes for example). I have only scene the film twice, and once was on a ridiculously poor quality VHS screener. Because where I lived at the time Star Wars never came to the cinema, but there was an abundance of bootleg video shops. I guess the reason that scene has never stuck out and bothered me was that there was a lot of other crap that came before it. I am not saying it isn't bad as far as film goes, I am saying it is not bad for a Star Wars prequel film.
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
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Plus, I've always like how it mirrored the ESB shot...but maybe I'm the only one...
Maybe you could cut it down some...you could just cut the kissing...but that's also anti-climatic...
Well, I *am* looking forward to you're christmas gift towards us all!
Attack of the Clones: Alternate Timeline Edit Thread:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
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I also wish there could have had a few lines from the Naboo clergy. But that's just me.
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On the other hand, if putting it in grinds things to a halt-- 108 min. is fine. We want this to be a good movie first, a good "Star Wars" movie second. If making it a "good Star Wars" movie length makes it a bad movie in general-- then what's really been gained?
Thoughts about the final kiss:
The first thing I noticed, screening it, was how un-OT the preceeding "Clone Army" marching off to war scene was. That thing is a real killer because I find that to be the most obvious CGi in the movie. It's like watching a scene from Roger Rabbit to have to pretend Palpatine and those troops are really sharing the same space. The most crippling aspect, imho, is how the camera moves around so much-- those computer made mattes allow the camera to do things that weren't possible during the OT-- so we get stuck with footage that will never match (unless Trooperman pulls off some magic). Too bad there aren't static shots of those troops and ships. I think it would all look more real and feel more OT.
I mention all that because the failings of that scene spill over into the failings of the Anakin wedding/kiss scene. I'm already in a "bad mood" so to speak, fighting to stay in the movie as it keeps doing things that take me out.
But forgetting the troops and just looking at the wedding footage, I think a solution is there. What makes th wedding/kiss so bad? It feels awkward to me. They kiss like teenagers on a date. The sequence has no grace in its cutting-- a moving shot cuts to a static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later, then to another static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later. Then more awkward, hesitant kissing and "meaningful" glances that convey no meaning. The result of all these bits of awkwardness make me dislike the scene for seeming to want to be more than it is. Is it just a happy wedding? Or is something brewing underneath? The awkwardness hints at something a little wrong-- but the awkwardness is the only hint.
Solution? I say, edit out the awkwardness.
FIRST SHOT: Pulling back from the sun in the mountains, then to the wide shot of the couple exchanging vows.
The priest steps away, Anakin reaches for Padme. CUT ON MOTION as his golden hand also reaches for her-- make these movements be graceful; all in one.
They move in for the first kiss-- and just after their lips touch for the first time, CUT to the droids moving and congratulating each other. Then CUT to the close-up 2 shot of Padme and Anakin kissing with sunlight behind them-- as they FINISH their last kiss (so the effect is that they had one LONG kiss -- not twenty hesitant awkward kisses).
Then as Padme and Anakin manage to separate and look at each other, let Padme look at Anakin ONCE, then CUT TO the final long shot as they turn together to look at the sunset. (the idea here is that we should be Cutting away before she awkwardly looks at his eyes, looks down, looks up, looks down and basically communicates to us "Who is this guy and what am I doing here?").
To me, that improves this final scene a lot by eliminating a lot of weird "static" that comes in because of the clumsy filmmaking/acting choices. It won't be half-so objectionable if it is simply graceful.
Them's my thoughts.
And if possible, figure out a way to make the Clone Army stuff seem to contain more still shots.
Glad to hear progress is being made, TM!
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MTHaslett, as always, I love hearing your ideas. That sounds like a good re-edit of the wedding scene.
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
And if possible, figure out a way to make the Clone Army stuff seem to contain more still shots.
And if possible, figure out a way to make the Clone Army stuff seem to contain more still shots.
I was never really bothered by the scene, but you are right that the camera movement makes it stand out as CGI.
I have a totally tech-ignorant suggestion. Use the HD version (which should be available soon) of this scene and do a handmade "pan and scan". Figure out what portion of the scene you want to focus on, then (the hard part) zoom in on just that part and stabilize it as the camera moves.
Speaking of the HD versions: Trooperman, have you considered using them to help you crop and zoom in on certain scenes?
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
To throw in my cheap-ass two-cents worth, I say 108 min sounds fine, but I would consider trying the Padme "pleading to the senate" scene because I believe it may work at paying off the new, tighter opening and it may be valuable to establish that she's really a senator (you know, by seeing her in the Senate).
On the other hand, if putting it in grinds things to a halt-- 108 min. is fine. We want this to be a good movie first, a good "Star Wars" movie second. If making it a "good Star Wars" movie length makes it a bad movie in general-- then what's really been gained?
Thoughts about the final kiss:
The first thing I noticed, screening it, was how un-OT the preceeding "Clone Army" marching off to war scene was. That thing is a real killer because I find that to be the most obvious CGi in the movie. It's like watching a scene from Roger Rabbit to have to pretend Palpatine and those troops are really sharing the same space. The most crippling aspect, imho, is how the camera moves around so much-- those computer made mattes allow the camera to do things that weren't possible during the OT-- so we get stuck with footage that will never match (unless Trooperman pulls off some magic). Too bad there aren't static shots of those troops and ships. I think it would all look more real and feel more OT.
I mention all that because the failings of that scene spill over into the failings of the Anakin wedding/kiss scene. I'm already in a "bad mood" so to speak, fighting to stay in the movie as it keeps doing things that take me out.
But forgetting the troops and just looking at the wedding footage, I think a solution is there. What makes th wedding/kiss so bad? It feels awkward to me. They kiss like teenagers on a date. The sequence has no grace in its cutting-- a moving shot cuts to a static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later, then to another static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later. Then more awkward, hesitant kissing and "meaningful" glances that convey no meaning. The result of all these bits of awkwardness make me dislike the scene for seeming to want to be more than it is. Is it just a happy wedding? Or is something brewing underneath? The awkwardness hints at something a little wrong-- but the awkwardness is the only hint.
Solution? I say, edit out the awkwardness.
FIRST SHOT: Pulling back from the sun in the mountains, then to the wide shot of the couple exchanging vows.
The priest steps away, Anakin reaches for Padme. CUT ON MOTION as his golden hand also reaches for her-- make these movements be graceful; all in one.
They move in for the first kiss-- and just after their lips touch for the first time, CUT to the droids moving and congratulating each other. Then CUT to the close-up 2 shot of Padme and Anakin kissing with sunlight behind them-- as they FINISH their last kiss (so the effect is that they had one LONG kiss -- not twenty hesitant awkward kisses).
Then as Padme and Anakin manage to separate and look at each other, let Padme look at Anakin ONCE, then CUT TO the final long shot as they turn together to look at the sunset. (the idea here is that we should be Cutting away before she awkwardly looks at his eyes, looks down, looks up, looks down and basically communicates to us "Who is this guy and what am I doing here?").
To me, that improves this final scene a lot by eliminating a lot of weird "static" that comes in because of the clumsy filmmaking/acting choices. It won't be half-so objectionable if it is simply graceful.
Them's my thoughts.
And if possible, figure out a way to make the Clone Army stuff seem to contain more still shots.
Glad to hear progress is being made, TM!
To throw in my cheap-ass two-cents worth, I say 108 min sounds fine, but I would consider trying the Padme "pleading to the senate" scene because I believe it may work at paying off the new, tighter opening and it may be valuable to establish that she's really a senator (you know, by seeing her in the Senate).
On the other hand, if putting it in grinds things to a halt-- 108 min. is fine. We want this to be a good movie first, a good "Star Wars" movie second. If making it a "good Star Wars" movie length makes it a bad movie in general-- then what's really been gained?
Thoughts about the final kiss:
The first thing I noticed, screening it, was how un-OT the preceeding "Clone Army" marching off to war scene was. That thing is a real killer because I find that to be the most obvious CGi in the movie. It's like watching a scene from Roger Rabbit to have to pretend Palpatine and those troops are really sharing the same space. The most crippling aspect, imho, is how the camera moves around so much-- those computer made mattes allow the camera to do things that weren't possible during the OT-- so we get stuck with footage that will never match (unless Trooperman pulls off some magic). Too bad there aren't static shots of those troops and ships. I think it would all look more real and feel more OT.
I mention all that because the failings of that scene spill over into the failings of the Anakin wedding/kiss scene. I'm already in a "bad mood" so to speak, fighting to stay in the movie as it keeps doing things that take me out.
But forgetting the troops and just looking at the wedding footage, I think a solution is there. What makes th wedding/kiss so bad? It feels awkward to me. They kiss like teenagers on a date. The sequence has no grace in its cutting-- a moving shot cuts to a static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later, then to another static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later. Then more awkward, hesitant kissing and "meaningful" glances that convey no meaning. The result of all these bits of awkwardness make me dislike the scene for seeming to want to be more than it is. Is it just a happy wedding? Or is something brewing underneath? The awkwardness hints at something a little wrong-- but the awkwardness is the only hint.
Solution? I say, edit out the awkwardness.
FIRST SHOT: Pulling back from the sun in the mountains, then to the wide shot of the couple exchanging vows.
The priest steps away, Anakin reaches for Padme. CUT ON MOTION as his golden hand also reaches for her-- make these movements be graceful; all in one.
They move in for the first kiss-- and just after their lips touch for the first time, CUT to the droids moving and congratulating each other. Then CUT to the close-up 2 shot of Padme and Anakin kissing with sunlight behind them-- as they FINISH their last kiss (so the effect is that they had one LONG kiss -- not twenty hesitant awkward kisses).
Then as Padme and Anakin manage to separate and look at each other, let Padme look at Anakin ONCE, then CUT TO the final long shot as they turn together to look at the sunset. (the idea here is that we should be Cutting away before she awkwardly looks at his eyes, looks down, looks up, looks down and basically communicates to us "Who is this guy and what am I doing here?").
To me, that improves this final scene a lot by eliminating a lot of weird "static" that comes in because of the clumsy filmmaking/acting choices. It won't be half-so objectionable if it is simply graceful.
Them's my thoughts.
And if possible, figure out a way to make the Clone Army stuff seem to contain more still shots.
Glad to hear progress is being made, TM!
If TM can pull it off, it sounds like it could be a huge improvment. I like the idea of one long kiss rather than them making out. It would have a much less modern feel to it this way.
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
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...it may be valuable to establish that she's really a senator (you know, by seeing her in the Senate).
I agree with MTHaslett on this one...plus, if I recall, she's actually doing some decent acting in this scene...
Wow! I couldn't agree more! I hate how the camera is constantly moving in the PT!
I wonder if by slowing the footage down (in this scene) just a bit it might give it more credabilty...? (and playing with the colors and levels too)
Solution? I say, edit out the awkwardness.
I agree with MTHaslett on this one...plus, if I recall, she's actually doing some decent acting in this scene...
The first thing I noticed, screening it, was how un-OT the preceeding "Clone Army" marching off to war scene was. That thing is a real killer because I find that to be the most obvious CGi in the movie. It's like watching a scene from Roger Rabbit to have to pretend Palpatine and those troops are really sharing the same space. The most crippling aspect, imho, is how the camera moves around so much-- those computer made mattes allow the camera to do things that weren't possible during the OT-- so we get stuck with footage that will never match (unless Trooperman pulls off some magic). Too bad there aren't static shots of those troops and ships. I think it would all look more real and feel more OT.
Wow! I couldn't agree more! I hate how the camera is constantly moving in the PT!
I wonder if by slowing the footage down (in this scene) just a bit it might give it more credabilty...? (and playing with the colors and levels too)
Solution? I say, edit out the awkwardness.
Again, I agree.
I guess this was a wasted post, since I never really offered any new info...but I think MTHaslett's post is very much worth considering!
Attack of the Clones: Alternate Timeline Edit Thread:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/SSWRs-Attack-of-the-Clones-Alternate-Timeline-Edit/id/66888
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MTH:
Great ideas on the wedding- you nailed down the problem exactly (which I couldn't explain).
What makes th wedding/kiss so bad? It feels awkward to me. They kiss like teenagers on a date. The sequence has no grace in its cutting-- a moving shot cuts to a static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later, then to another static shot that starts moving a fraction of a second later. Then more awkward, hesitant kissing and "meaningful" glances that convey no meaning.
Exactly. The only issue with cutting it as you described is that I'll need to come up with a couple more shots to pad out the time for the music, which I can't cut.
guess the reason that scene has never stuck out and bothered me was that there was a lot of other crap that came before it.
That is a VERY good point- in fact, it might be why it didn't stick out as much until this late in the game (although it was noticeably bad). But now, contrasting it with the rest of the movie, you get to this scene and realize how pathetic it is.
I hate how the camera is constantly moving in the PT!
It's because they were worried the CGI wouldn't be credible (and they had every right to be). Of course I don't mind good camera-work (I've added several zooms and camera moves myself, but it's been on scenes involving the actors), but I too like more static shots when we're dealing with SPFX.
The most crippling aspect, imho, is how the camera moves around so much-- those computer made mattes allow the camera to do things that weren't possible during the OT-- so we get stuck with footage that will never match (unless Trooperman pulls off some magic).
Maybe I can pull on a little magic
Here's a quick test (the shot with the clones marching was original a moving camera shot, but is now more stable): testMaybe hit some of your female friends up for advice on this particular element of your edit. While this might seem a crazy hair brained idea, remember distance from a project and fresh eyes (namely audiences who don't frequent SW forums or who aren't as familiar with the films) can offer great insight into something you might have otherwise missed.
Actually not out of the question. When this is done, I may be able to arrange a screening with about a dozen people who have never heard about this edit before (but in general are Star Wars fans). It would be interesting.
As for the scene with Padme pleading to the Senate, I agree that the acting was a little better than normal. The only two issues are: A) I already used a couple crowd shots from this in the "Emergency Powers" Senate scene, and B) I lose the great transition from Corde's death to the man responsible, Palpatine (which I've indicated in the soundtrack). The only way around this would be to place the deleted scene BETWEEN Palpatine's conference and the arrival of Anakin/Obi-Wan, but then you might tend to wonder why she changes into new clothes for the Senate and then changes back into the previous ones for meeting Obi-Wan in Anakin. A continuity problem unless this takes place over the span of a couple days. I just wish they did it like the OT, rather than having Padme wear something completely different every scene- it starts to create problems.
I have a totally tech-ignorant suggestion. Use the HD version (which should be available soon) of this scene and do a handmade "pan and scan". Figure out what portion of the scene you want to focus on, then (the hard part) zoom in on just that part and stabilize it as the camera moves.
Good idea....
Why do I feel a July release date coming soon... =)
Not going to happen. I know I've pushed the date back a couple of times, but this is really it. It's just a lot of footage to color-correct, crop, and etc., and then I'll have to go back through and fix the encoding glitches, and then I'll polish the audio mix, and then the film will be ready to serve.
A better idea might be to utilize the HD version when I do a dual-layer version, and replace the shots that will suffer in quality, because the DVD resolution might not hold up so well when I crop and zoom on shots and encode to dual-layer. I think this is a good idea....
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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Sorry for the large filesize (44 meg). If someone could upload it to Youtube, that'd be great so that more people can access it.
There are a couple minor issues (which I'm not going to tell you about yet), but this is pretty much it. I know I've used footage from another film (Blade Runner), but seeing as Lucas actually copied Blade Runner in several very obvious places in Ep. II, I didn't have as much of a problem with it.
Hope you like it. Merry Christmas
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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I can't wait
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