.... GL didn't always have the intention of making Vader the central hero. Luke was very much the central hero from the start, in GL's mind, until probably well after ROTJ was made.
.... They very much could've made the Clone Wars more central to the movies themselves. The Phantom Menace might actually have been a good time to mention them. However: I do believe that it worked out nicely as is. Not perfect, no, but rather nicely.
Originally posted by: CO
Beejay, you make good points, but I think you misunderstood my statement towards Vaders revelation. In the context of the OOT of SW, ESB, ROTJ, I love 'I am your father.' In context of the OOT, I enjoy the redemption of Vader in ROTJ, as it gives the OOT much depth that few movie sagas have. The bottom line is in the context of the OOT, Darth Vader is NEVER the main character, even when the movie focuses on Luke & Vader in the final hour of ROTJ, it was always about Luke.
Luke was indeed the focal character of the OOT. He was the main protagonist of *all* of Star Wars until the PT rolled around and changed everything.
Whether for good or bad, much of it does have to be left to imagination or the animated cartoon (have you ever seen any episodes of the two seasons?) It's bittersweet: more movie time for other storylines to develop such as the political storylines, and to show other character interactions. But at the same time, like you mentioned, we don't get a whole lot of friendship moments between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Those we do get, though, are rather good, if not a bit flawed.
Originally posted by: CO
My point is Lucas did not have to make the PT about Anakin, and it is about Anakin, as Lucas said in an old interview, "This trilogy is a character study of how a person goes bad." When marrying the trilogies now, it is so jarring cause that is not what the OT was about. The one great thing about the SW universe is there is always a story to tell, it isn't like other movies series where there just isn't much story beyond the main story, but Lucas is living and dying with the story of Darth Vader, and that is why there is this huge division now of fans.
Beejay, you make good points, but I think you misunderstood my statement towards Vaders revelation. In the context of the OOT of SW, ESB, ROTJ, I love 'I am your father.' In context of the OOT, I enjoy the redemption of Vader in ROTJ, as it gives the OOT much depth that few movie sagas have. The bottom line is in the context of the OOT, Darth Vader is NEVER the main character, even when the movie focuses on Luke & Vader in the final hour of ROTJ, it was always about Luke.
Luke was indeed the focal character of the OOT. He was the main protagonist of *all* of Star Wars until the PT rolled around and changed everything.
Originally posted by: CO
What I meant by Lucas going Vader crazy was with the PT, and how he literally made 3 movies to answer why Darth Vader reacted the way he did in the last hour of ROTJ. My point is there is SO much story in the PT that just didn't have to be about Anakin Skywalker, that could have been a plot point.
Those three movies were fundamentally about Anakin/Vader, yes. But I do think there was a fair effort made on Lucas' part to incorporate other things. One was as mentioned already the Clone Wars story arc. Wes's opinion is basically that there wasn't enough of it in the movies. I disagree. There was plenty of battling going on during the movies that were a preview or result of the Clone Wars. Much of the prequel trilogy actually centers around this galactic happening, and many fans need to appreciate that the Clone Wars themselves have very little to do with Anakin/Vader, yet they were still included: which means Lucas & team did consciously deviate at least a bit from just Anakin's viewpoint.
That's understandable. And while I dislike defending or making an example of AOTC in any way, shape or form, I want us to remember when Obi-Wan and Anakin are in the lift going up to Padme's quarters near the beginning of AOTC. They exchange some friendly dialogue and it really shines through that they have been close friends even when being master/apprentice. I don't see that close of a friendship between say: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace. It's made clear enough that such a strong and obvious friendship between master/apprentice is very uncommon. In AOTC, Obi-Wan is much like Anakin's father, and by the time ROTS rolls around, Obi-Wan is very much Anakin's brother. Does anyone else see it this way?
While I understand totally that their friendship could have had more screentime than it did, and that Lucas did need to show more accurately how many adventures the two had went on, we need to appreciate what we did get in AOTC in that scene.
If you'll also notice in ROTS when they land on Coruscant and Obi-Wan has to leave, him and Anakin have another exchange of words, *reminiscing* yet again about events that occured to them during their friendship.
Originally posted by: CO
There is so much more story about the Clone Wars, that got shifted to a cartoon. There is another subplot in the deleted scenes with Padme and the birth of the rebellion. If you don't read EU, you wont know any of the Jedi that died in Order 66, so that whole scene lacks the drama.
What I meant by Lucas going Vader crazy was with the PT, and how he literally made 3 movies to answer why Darth Vader reacted the way he did in the last hour of ROTJ. My point is there is SO much story in the PT that just didn't have to be about Anakin Skywalker, that could have been a plot point.
Those three movies were fundamentally about Anakin/Vader, yes. But I do think there was a fair effort made on Lucas' part to incorporate other things. One was as mentioned already the Clone Wars story arc. Wes's opinion is basically that there wasn't enough of it in the movies. I disagree. There was plenty of battling going on during the movies that were a preview or result of the Clone Wars. Much of the prequel trilogy actually centers around this galactic happening, and many fans need to appreciate that the Clone Wars themselves have very little to do with Anakin/Vader, yet they were still included: which means Lucas & team did consciously deviate at least a bit from just Anakin's viewpoint.
Originally posted by: CO
I agree with you on the characters, the drama of any movie is through the characters, but Lucas put all his eggs in Darth Vaders story in the PT, and now in the saga 1-6, that if you don't LOVE it, it won't be as powerful as the OOT story of just Luke, Leia, and Han.
Yes.
Originally posted by: CO
The PT had so many possibilties storywise that Lucas just touched on. I would have loved for TPM to be about Anakin/Kenobi and essentially that movie tells a story of 2 hours of their friendship set to the backdrop of how Palpatine is planning to become Chancellor. Roughly the same plot as TPM in 1999, yet there is no QuiGon, and there is a 20 year old Anakin is best friends with Kenobi, and IT IS SHOWN ON SCREEN!!!!!! That would have made the duel so much more tragic in ROTS.
I agree with you on the characters, the drama of any movie is through the characters, but Lucas put all his eggs in Darth Vaders story in the PT, and now in the saga 1-6, that if you don't LOVE it, it won't be as powerful as the OOT story of just Luke, Leia, and Han.
Yes.
Originally posted by: CO
The PT had so many possibilties storywise that Lucas just touched on. I would have loved for TPM to be about Anakin/Kenobi and essentially that movie tells a story of 2 hours of their friendship set to the backdrop of how Palpatine is planning to become Chancellor. Roughly the same plot as TPM in 1999, yet there is no QuiGon, and there is a 20 year old Anakin is best friends with Kenobi, and IT IS SHOWN ON SCREEN!!!!!! That would have made the duel so much more tragic in ROTS.
That's understandable. And while I dislike defending or making an example of AOTC in any way, shape or form, I want us to remember when Obi-Wan and Anakin are in the lift going up to Padme's quarters near the beginning of AOTC. They exchange some friendly dialogue and it really shines through that they have been close friends even when being master/apprentice. I don't see that close of a friendship between say: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace. It's made clear enough that such a strong and obvious friendship between master/apprentice is very uncommon. In AOTC, Obi-Wan is much like Anakin's father, and by the time ROTS rolls around, Obi-Wan is very much Anakin's brother. Does anyone else see it this way?
While I understand totally that their friendship could have had more screentime than it did, and that Lucas did need to show more accurately how many adventures the two had went on, we need to appreciate what we did get in AOTC in that scene.
If you'll also notice in ROTS when they land on Coruscant and Obi-Wan has to leave, him and Anakin have another exchange of words, *reminiscing* yet again about events that occured to them during their friendship.
Originally posted by: CO
There is so much more story about the Clone Wars, that got shifted to a cartoon. There is another subplot in the deleted scenes with Padme and the birth of the rebellion. If you don't read EU, you wont know any of the Jedi that died in Order 66, so that whole scene lacks the drama.
Whether for good or bad, much of it does have to be left to imagination or the animated cartoon (have you ever seen any episodes of the two seasons?) It's bittersweet: more movie time for other storylines to develop such as the political storylines, and to show other character interactions. But at the same time, like you mentioned, we don't get a whole lot of friendship moments between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Those we do get, though, are rather good, if not a bit flawed.
Originally posted by: CO
My point is Lucas did not have to make the PT about Anakin, and it is about Anakin, as Lucas said in an old interview, "This trilogy is a character study of how a person goes bad." When marrying the trilogies now, it is so jarring cause that is not what the OT was about. The one great thing about the SW universe is there is always a story to tell, it isn't like other movies series where there just isn't much story beyond the main story, but Lucas is living and dying with the story of Darth Vader, and that is why there is this huge division now of fans.
That combining of the PT and OOT is very personal and ultimately optional. Regardless of what George Lucas says, those two trilogies are very much different entities of film. One trilogy was from 1977-1983, and the other was 1999-2005. Anyone who says the technology/CGI/filmaking is similar enough to make a believable combination of the two is simply wrong. We have to look at the stories themselves.... some of us want Star Wars to be about Darth Vader so we discuss this stuff to help along the PT, while others want Star Wars to be about Luke Skywalker and no one else. The latter are mainly the people like you. Both viewpoints are equally valid.