I'm away for a few days and there are two new pages of posts in this thread! Damn. I've never seen such devotion in a droid ... er, thread before. You guys are really something, and I know that a thread with this much feeling behind it, that has brought so many results and things I could never have dreamed of to light will bring a bigger result one of these days - the result we're all waiting for. Oh, Disney.
I've arrived in Connecticut. All my stuff is in storage, I'm staying with family for the time being and I can't send out most DVDs at the moment. I'll probably be back up and running in December. I still won't be around here much for the time being.
Moderators have closed my Star Wars Classic 2.0 thread - specifically Moth3r - and there was also a thread here where I was accused of greed in this project, which is remarkable when you consider that I sent out literally thousands of free Thief related DVDs to members of the production team and made this DVD downloadable for free via torrent and have worked tirelessly this past year bringing new stuff to light and well blah blah blah WHATEVER.
My response to all this can be found in the Ocpmovie Megathread -- as well as more blah about what's going on in my life. Like how I had to turn down an audition for the TV show My Name is Earl ..... an audition I would have killed for a week ago.
ANYWAY ANYWAY, let me respond to SOME of what's going on in this thread.
First of all, major gratitude to Ogg Oggilby. He's posted most of the major things a Thief fan ought to watch right there on Google Video. The quality is Google-ugly, but I understand the downloadable iPod/PSP versions are lovely (I'll check 'em out when I'm back on my Mac), and since most of this stuff has NOT been torrented, this is a very cool way for you to get it for free the internet way. Already it's done TServo and Esn a favor by letting them see the crap versions of the movie.
So Ogg, as perhaps a sideways salute to Bonnie let me do this like Stephen Colbert.
Tip of the Hat, Wag of the Finger.
Big Tip of the Hat to you for making this stuff available in a new and wonderful way. You've worked hard as always, broadcasting to the masses, and this beats GBS-TV for viewership.
Wag of the Finger to you for reediting the Recobbled Cut to your own twisted needs. I'm saying that with a smirk because I kind of like the idea of a different cut, but for god's sake, if you're going to put the Recobbled Cut out there, PUT THE RECOBBLED CUT OUT THERE. I don't like my work being recut and reworked without my permission particularly when the original isn't available in that format.
I'm sure all the changes you made were valid in terms of matching the workprint closer. But I made the Recobbled Cut different from the workprint for a reason. Everything you've done here is something I considered doing in my own cut, and then decided wasn't a good idea.
I'd be interested in seeing a "closer to the workprint" cut, sure. You can present my own cut, and then your remix. I loved seeing your version of the flight over the mountains, which I think is just as valid as my version. It's a little weird to watch for an audience who doesn't know what they're watching, which is why I didn't do the same in my cut, but it's much closer to Richard's intentions and it shows what I WISH I could have done in my cut, if the footage was there.
I love the workprint, lord knows I've watched it enough times, more than anyone here. But it's not a finished version of the film. Fred Calvert may have ruined the film, but he did finish it, and he created changes in the film that are difficult to undo without making jarring, awkward edits. He also finished certain segments in ways that are, to my eyes, valid and acceptable for use in an edit that removes his hackwork otherwise. For example, it's certainly better for segments to have music. And anywhere that Calvert had a dissolve, I often had to have a dissolve too, because there was no editing around it.
The goal of this edit was to present the film as "Closer to Finished," and easier to watch for someone who knows nothing about the film's mangled history, and I included a lot of Calvert material because of that. It's not Williams quality, but it's finished animation, and that makes it all much easier to watch. Maybe some of the music isn't up to Williams' standards, but it's music which makes it easier to watch. Finished animation is much easier to watch than storyboards, and the Recobbled Cut combined with the workprint could serve as a storyboard for a new animation team to better what Calvert failed at.
But you know all that. So I'm just saying tsk tsk for sneaking in your own edits unannounced. But interesting to see your take on the film! I'd be curious to see a more workprinty workprint cut. I haven't really looked at your cut because of the computer I'm on - no MP4 capability it would seem.
My advice - if you think you've got the time to do so, do your own cut that fixes whatever problems you might have with my cut. Make it as different as you can, and more workprinty, and put it out as an alternate remix, but don't call it my cut. Rerecobbled?
Since that better Animating Art never turned up (Ben's still not around, STILL), you could also do your special edition of that ....
Okay, chiming in on other stuff .... the discussion has been quite interesting and sorry for chiming in suddenly but hey, it's my thread and I'll comment if I want to. =)
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TServo -- Robert Folk's score is very derivative yeah, like a lot of mediocre film music is. It has that feel that it's very based on the temp music, which is interesting since we've HEARD the temp music in the Calvert Work in Progress, and it's nothing like the tracks that Folk's score seems derivative of. I mean, there's no Pink Panther, no James Horner, no John Williams (E.T., as you said) .... mostly it's Danny Elfman. But clearly Folk had his own "temp music" in mind.
I don't think it's ridiculously awful, when divorced from the Miramax and Calvert cuts. It's not really Williams' music, but I felt that, like Calvert's poor animation, it was fun to use it in this edit to "save it" .... let it serve the purpose of the film as intended.
I sort of intended the Recobbled Cut, in a weird way, to be the "Good Calvert" cut .... like if someone besides Williams had had to finish the film, but did it in a more respectful way.
>> The other is MeeMee saying "ugh, maybe something died". Quite frankly, the shot makes NO sense at all, since she was cut out of the previous scene (which I agree with). I don't understand why you would cut her out partially, but not completely. A viewer who hasn't seen the film suddenly sees someone answer YumYum, but has no idea who it is. The voice is different, and the way she inclines her head makes it clear that she is replying to someone, so it's pretty clear that she's not YumYum.
Uh, Yumyum and Meemee are identical twins. Identical. Even Tack can't tell them apart (in the Never Gave Up script).
It's clear that that's intended to be Yumyum, for the purpose of this edit. The voice isn't that different.
I feel quite confident that Williams would have left the line in, having Yumyum say it instead of Meemee. Or, if Hilary Pritchard was dead or unavailable, cut it entirely, but that leaves the scene without a punchline.
Can't have that. Of course I'd leave the line in. It makes the scene better.
>> For some reason, nearly all Williams photography has softer focus than Calvert's stuff. Notice how the handful of Williams shots in the Zig-Zag tower scene are darker and softer than the Calvert material.
It's older, and better photographed. Also photographed and lit with more subtlety. Leatherbarrow photographed the Williams stuff like a live action film .... done gorgeously, with multiple exposures and a million tricks.
Calvert's stuff looks clearer because the LINES ARE A MILE THICK. They were all animated with thick lines, artlessly, on a much smaller scale. Williams' art was much bigger, the lines thinner, photographed from farther away. Calvert is zooming in on tiny drawings, done without any of the skill.
Even the stuff done by the London team (like the scenes with Zigzag and One Eye), which are close enough to what Williams would have done, have much thicker lines because of the smaller paper/field size, and lack the glow of the tricksy, filtery Leatherbarrow photography, which was intended to be softer. The weaker animation is clear on a DVD but would look ridiculous on a big screen.
>>> I have thankfully never seen the Miramax cut until now.
Esn and Tservo. Yeah, it's unwatchable and I'm glad Ogg was able to bring it to you. You've been very critical (though approving) of my work on the Recobbled Cut, which I actually enjoy because it forces me to be honest and confront the ways in which I did deviate from the workprint. And I could tell you hadn't seen the Miramax cut when commenting. I find that people in general are more critical of the Recobbled Cut, until they see the Miramax Cut. Then they're so shocked that they get very quiet and are just kinda glad that I approached the project with an actual respect for the film!
>> It's also the best quality of the three (especially since ocp did a fantastic job on 24fps conversion).
(Commercials Reel) Thanks! For those coming in late, I also did color correction, made it all a bit more blue I think. This was originally from PAL and was slowed down from 25 fps to 24 fps, for use on an NTSC DVD.
>Studio Toledo
>>The last batch (of commercials) were probably from my collection!
Of course!
>> Thief Who Never Gave Up Documentary
>> This also came from me too (and from a videotape that cost me plenty on eBay).
Your copy of The Thief Who Never Gave Up is wonderful quality, a perfectly clear NTSC one, and worth the money as an artifact and copy.
I actually used a PAL master provided by baby hum for my DVD though -- he had converted it with great skill and that PAL clarity helped. I had a choice between your great transfer and his - a luxury I rarely had on this project!