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Where do I go from here as a SW fan? — Page 6

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I think you assume far more than you really should.

If Lucas felt Kurtz "never said no to anything" and he was worried about going over budget, it may be that he didn't want to have to explain it to Kurtz, and just wanted to move on to the next thing.
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I think you give far too much credit to your "god".

His stories change every time the wind blows too hard. Not many here will deny that.....

But whatever, you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. That's the great thing about the world, people have different ideas of how things go and in the end, no one's really right. So let's just agree to disagree....fair enough?
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I don't think Lucas is a God, and I don't pretend you think Kurtz is yours.

At least in my case, I don't have to assume either Lucas or Kurtz is lying or forgetting the facts.

Your stance depends on ignoring what Lucas says about it.
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Not taking the bait, Gomer.

Go fuck yourself.
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Bait? Saying that my stance is on steadier ground that yours is baiting you?

What if I were to make a thread to see how many people think you are a troll and should be banned, and then pretend I'm not trying to get you banned?

Would that be a well-reasoned argument?

If me saying my argument doesn't depend on discarding some of the evidence is baiting you, then telling me to go fuck myself is certainly taking the bait.
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Awwwwwwww......are we still a little hurt about that thread? B-O-O H-O-O....

Clean the sand out of your pussy and stop whining.

I disagree with your stance and I backed away by saying that we should just agree to disagree. You could have just let it go, but instead you tried to perpetuate the argument by drawing me back in. Not falling for it....

Bringing up that other thread though just makes you look like a whiny fucking maggot bitch. And I don't have time for that kind of thin-skinned bullshit......remember I asked for that thread to be closed...you fucking sissy.

Shut the fuck up and go suck on your mommy's tit some more. Through here.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
What sounds "delusional" to me are people who think they know more about what Lucas has thought in his own head than he does.

As far as I can tell, you're the only one around here who thinks that. You're the one always saying "I think what he means is this..." or "Lucas is probably thinking this...". No one else around here does that. The closest we come is conjecture based on what we see him do. You take it a step further and really try to tell us what you think he's thinking based on what he's saying.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
At least in my case, I don't have to assume either Lucas or Kurtz is lying or forgetting the facts.

Your stance depends on ignoring what Lucas says about it.


And your stance depends on ignoring all the other evidence to the contrary (original movie, scripts, books, Kurtz, etc). You think you're right based on someones memory of what happened more than 20 years ago. We think we're right based on hard evidence (scripts, movies, books, etc). And actually, in your case, you do have to assume that Lucas or Kurtz has forgotten the facts. Lucas says one thing, Kurtz says another. YOU are assuming that Lucas gets it right because he can't possibly be remembering it wrong. We are assuming Kurtz got it right for all the reasons we've mentioned.

How is your stance any better than ours?
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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None of that proves Lucas is lying. He didn't have to write it on the scripts or tell Kurtz about it to have thought it.

I am not discounting what Kurtz said at all.

He says he doesn't understand why Lucas wouldn't have just kept at that shot until he got what he originally wanted. To him they could have spent all week on that. To Lucas, he says they didn't have any time or money to spare, and so he ended up living with it.
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Originally posted by: Cable-X1
Originally posted by: Vigo
I agree with all of you except one thing: Lucas DOES NOT have to acknowledge and respect our wishes. He can do pretty much everything he wants with his works. No matter how much the fans will cry and whine here.

Of course he doesn't have to....but why should that stop him. All he has to do is release them properly so that EVERYONE is happy. It's not quantum physics here. Put out the best product of what will satisfy everyone. That would be a fully remastered OOT with all the works and then his SE if that's what he personally prefers. I think what drives a lot of people bonkers is that the solution is so damn simple. Just release every version, George....that's not asking too much, is it?

Sure I underderstand the anger. I am angry myself. But, you know, on the other hand, I am telling to myself "Why should I be angry about this? Why should I let it happen that this person has so much power over me? And why should this anger drive me to insult people, which do not have the same opinion as I have?". I mean, what good does anger do? Nothing. It´s not constructive. The only way to change things is be constructive. This site is the prime example of being constructiveness, namely preservation.



Calm down, dude. You sound like Star Wars is being a drug, and you are the junky on turkey. In the end, Lucas does what he can, whether you prefer to accept it, or not. Call him a bastard, idiot, whatever you feel, it won´t change anything.

Perfectly calm here dude. You better chill, I thinks. A movie that a hell of a lot of people love does not equate a junky.


As long as one can maintain a healthy distance to the things one does love, one is not a junky, you are right. However, I see the problem that a lot of people are enraged, and forget themselves about this issue. I won´t call this a healthy distance.


Stop trying to make me sound melodramatic. You know exactly what I mean when I say what Lucas is doing. There's nothing wrong with popping in the OOT and letting your mind wander back to the time you were a kid and saw it the first time. That sort of thing is rather esoteric and I don't expect everyone to get it, but don't make me look like some wacko about it.


This is not the point I´m trying to make. The point is that I think some people take their passion way too serious, which doesnt do them or other people any good. It makes them blind. And ultimately will prevent any rational thought. If you are a wacko just because of loving the OOT better, I am a wacko, too.


I don't trivialize you, Vigo. Don't trivialize me. And Lucas is a dumb bastard all around and yeah, I know it won't change anything, but am I supposed to roll over and drink the kool-aid. Don't think so....you're welcome to though.

Do you think I trivialize by actually trying to appeal to people´s reason?



It´s neither respect nor disrespect. It´s marketing. Slap the OOT on disc and bundle it with the unsold SE discs from stock. Nothing more.

Go-Mer is at least in one thing right: there are really vicious people here demonizing Lucas. He neither is a demon, nor an angel. He does, what every corporation in the world does: maximize profits. Nothing more. If you cry at him, cry at the whole capitalistic system, because he is just doing what he is allowed to do. Legally, Star Wars does NOT belong to us, that´s the cruel truth.

I believe I acknowledged that it's marketing, but I disagree with the disrespect. I think it is. I point to other releases that have original and special editions in them. ET, the future Blade Runner, Dawn Of The Dead...all these DVD releases have multiple, restored and remastered versions. SW was a hell of a lot bigger than all of those combined. In fact, wouldn't it be good marketing to do the same thing and release all the versions all spiffed up in a nice release? That way you maximize your customer base. Everyone will buy it if it has everything, right? So you see...the marketing excuse can be used both ways. Lucas just doens't like the OOT anymore and it gets treated like shit. That's disrespect.

Ok, so Lucas doesn´t respect us anymore. He probably hates us and he hates the OOT. Of course you can see it this way, perfectly valid, but what does it give to you? Nothing. Unrationalized feelings. Hate.

The alternative is to ignore this, and just analyse it from the marketing POV, from the view of Lucasfilm. I stopped bothering listening to what Lucas said. In the end, all the actions you can observe coming from Lucasfilm are just plain marketing... at its worst! This is the way everything works. This is the reason why he created the SE´s in the first place. This is the reason he surpressed the GOUT, because he thought: "Now since I have done the SE´s, I have to support them by every means possible. I just say the originals don´t exist anymore, because there is not enough market for both versions, and I just want to have a "cleaned up" product palette". And now this is the reason, he slapped the GOUT on this new DVD set, because to clear the stock of unsold, overproduced SE discs. I think, this point of view is much preferrable than just thinking "OH MAN, HE HATES US, HE HATES STAR WARS, HE HATES THIS, HE HATES THAT..."


And please spare us that "cry at the capitalist system" shit.....lame.


Again, just raw feelings. It IS no shit, it´s the truth. The current system, how intellectual property is handled, clearly defines who owns Star Wars. And it is not compatible with the desires OOT fans have.



You both are two extremes: Go-Mer is the Lucas lover, you decided to utterly hate this man for his actions. At least, it´s something to fill out boring evenings, right?

I do not utterly hate the man. I've said that on many occasion. What I don't hide is utter irritation at how moronic this man is. He has the greatest sci-fi/fantasy film series EVER and he treats it like nothing more than a cash cow.


How would you treat it, if it would be one of your very few sources of income? You forget, beyond Star Wars, Lucas hasn´t achieved much more. Yeah, Indiana Jones.... He has to pay a lot of money to keep Lucasfilm going. Star Wars are the most expensive independent films made.


Sure, if there's money to be made, I want him to make it. I'd do the same, but it's just all the bullshit that annoys me. He's going to make MORE changes for the 2007 release?


Yep, because, since these are basically the same movies again, he feels the need to change his product to enhance its appeal to the customers. Again: simple marketing at its worst. The only funny thing is how his fans interpret these actions. "artistic vision"(tm)


He wants people to buy it again??? Will he ever be finished???


No, according to the reasons I gave you.


I'm not saying anyone has to buy it, but it's just the principle. He expects that people will fork over money for his OCD-fueled changes time and time again?


Yep.


The man has got some major issues in his noodle....I just feel the need to speak up about it. Don't translate that as hate to try and dismiss me.


No, but I see that most people, Lucas supporters and critics, can not see the bigger picture.


It kills time on boring evenings, yeah. You got a problem with that?


Nope.





The problem is the following:

- Kurtz may be lying


Don't see any reason why he should. He's out of the big picture anyway. I think he's just defending a film he worked on and has pride in. He doens't like what it's been turned into. I don't blame him and I don't see any reason why he should. He's not getting money for causing any ruckus.

- Lucas may be lying


I don't think Lucas is lying....I think in some warped section of his brain, he believes what he's saying as the truth even if it contradicts what he's said before. Sounds delusional to me...



That is so weak, Gomer. I expect better arguments from you...


Sorry, but so are you. You both are practically the same, only the other way around.


So am I what? We're polar opposites of the argument....and your point is?


That you realize it, and step out of this mechanical behaviour.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
None of that proves Lucas is lying. He didn't have to write it on the scripts or tell Kurtz about it to have thought it.

I am not discounting what Kurtz said at all.

He says he doesn't understand why Lucas wouldn't have just kept at that shot until he got what he originally wanted. To him they could have spent all week on that. To Lucas, he says they didn't have any time or money to spare, and so he ended up living with it.


Actually, you are (discounting what Kurtz said). Kurtz isn't saying they could have spent all week on it either (though thanks for trying to tell us what he's thinking). I'm sure Kurtz, being the producer, was well aware of how much money and time they had. But here you are, telling us that Lucas is remembering it correctly and Kurtz is not. So what if Kurtz didn't know everything that was going on in Lucas' head.

The point is, Go-Mer, that you're willing to accept Lucas' word over Kurtz's simple because Lucas is giving you a story that fits with the SEs. Is it not at all possible that Lucas changed his mind 20 years later and decided he wanted it the other way? It seems much more plausible and probable that that's what happened rather than that he just couldn't get the shot.

So whether you admit it or not, you are in fact discounting what Kurtz says because it doesn't fit with what Lucas says, even though they were both there and were both very well aware of the money and time issues. If Lucas never mentioned this to Kurtz, it says even more about his inabilities as the Executive Producer/Director than anything else. It doesn't do anyone any good to have a director that won't communicate their thoughts until 20 years later.

EDIT: You're also telling us that Kurtz's memory is not as good as Lucas so he must not be remembering it properly. It's just as possible that it's the other way around. And, as others have said, it's just as possible that Lucas has convinced himself it was suppose to happen differently.
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: Vigo
How would you treat it, if it would be one of your very few sources of income? You forget, beyond Star Wars, Lucas hasn´t achieved much more. Yeah, Indiana Jones.... He has to pay a lot of money to keep Lucasfilm going. Star Wars are the most expensive independent films made.


I'd release two editions. A theatrical version and a special (or extended) edition. I'd release them both (maybe separate the release schedules by a year, but no more) and not only in a box set. Release each movie separately and have both versions be fully remastered. Put a ton of extras on the special editions and maybe a few on the theatricals. After that, I'd move on and create something else. What I would not do is continue tinkering with any of the movies for years, releasing a new edition on DVD every so often to cash in again. Do it once and move on.

If I had to pick examples for comparison, I'd say do it T2 collector's edition style (seamless branching) or LOTR style (theatrical and EE 6 months apart). Have each movie available separately and as part of a box set. Make the box set slightly cheaper than buying the 3 separate. That way, if someone wants all 3, they're getting a discount. But Joe Blow that only wants one movie doesn't have to get all 3 either.

And if you want to get into issues with negatives and crap, I would have ensure there were 3 backups of the movie once the restoration had been completed and none of those 3 backups would ever be allowed to be touched.

That's how I'd treat it if it were something that I'd created.

F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Ansering the title question, I would wean myself off the SW for good, and pretend it never ever happened, or become a flagellant and mourn the loss of a part of film history and make a saga out of that that can slightly ease the grief, giving maybe a better film than SW
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The thing is, Kurtz doesn't call Lucas a liar, he says he doesn't understand why Lucas would feel they didn't have the time or money to do more shots.

He says that the scene was never intended to be the way Lucas claims.

The problem here is he is talking about what Lucas intended as if he would know -more- about it than Lucas would.

Any way you slice it, we have two people with different takes about what "Lucas intended", and I defer to Lucas himself, because I think he has the best chance of knowing what he originally intended out of the two.

At the end of the day, I don't think there is any question that when it came to time and money to finish ANH, their backs were up against the wall.

If Kurtz is actually saying they could have done whatever they wanted, then he is alone in saying that.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Unfortunately, it will be tough to move on before getting a proper release of the old versions. If you care enough to be here, you're in for good. You can try to force yourself to like the new versions, or force yourself to ignore Star Wars altogether but it probably won't stick. I'm going to keep beating the tired, annoying original versions drum. Someday, when I can simply kick back and watch the movies in a presentation equal to fucking Krull, this will all seem silly, and we can enjoy as much or as little of Star Wars as we want, just like James Bond or Jaws or Godfather.
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You could always watch the copies of the O-OT he released so far. I know it's not anamorphic, but it's closer to what many of you want than the SE is right?
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You could always watch the copies of the O-OT he released so far. I know it's not anamorphic, but it's closer to what many of you want than the SE is right?


Gomer, I don't know if you have a HD TV, but this release looks like crap. I mean it looks like Laserdisk, cause it is taken from a laserdisk master, and that is why it looks so average.

For me and I can't speak for anyone else here, but I can't enjoy SW movies anymore without something annoying me when I pop in a SW movie in the DVD player.

1. If I choose to watch the O-OT DVDs, I have to watch some archaic quality that was great 13 years ago, and I think of Superman: The Movie, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and Lord of the Rings DVD's I have, and think what the O-OT would look like if they had those masters.

2. If I choose to watch the SE movies, I have to put up with all the shit Lucas has put in each movie which takes me right out, (Bad Jabba CG, Greedo shooting first, Vader arrival on the destroyer in ESB taken right from ROTJ! JediRocks and Hayden in ROTJ) And Lucas took out Lukes wink to Anakin, Yoda, and Ben in the SE, why would he do that?

3. If I pop in the PT to try to see the story 1-6, you get Jar Jar acting like the Three Stooges for 2 hours in TPM, Anakin/Padme cheesy love story in AOTC, and The uncompelling 'turn scene' in ROTS.

There is no possible way I can totally enjoy a SW movie anymore without some bullshit that Lucas has done to the saga since 1997. Until the O-OT comes out in great quality like every DVD on the market, I will always think of SW as how George Lucas fucked up a good thing.

I’m an original member here dating back to 2004. Haven’t posted in years, but looking forward to posting again.

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I just remember the day I got my laserdiscs of the O-OT, thinking that it would never get any better than that.

Now I'm hearing people say it's bad to the point of being torturous.

It just seems to me that to a certain extent, Lucas isn't the only one who is pretending the O-OT doesn't exist anymore.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I just remember the day I got my laserdiscs of the O-OT, thinking that it would never get any better than that.

Now I'm hearing people say it's bad to the point of being torturous.

It just seems to me that to a certain extent, Lucas isn't the only one who is pretending the O-OT doesn't exist anymore.


So what is the point of getting a DVD player, if you are getting Laserdisk quality? I mean why do we even need any new SW movies released on home format, cause you can get the SE on Laserdisk too? Dude, I have been reading your arguments on these boards since I joined up, and that has to be the lamest answer i ever heard. By your logic, why are any DVD's anamorphic anyway? Why are DVD's put out in Dolby Digital 5.1, or DTS for that matter. Why even have a DVD format if you can't get DVD quality. Are you being serious, or do you really feel this way, cause this isn't about gusher or basher views, it is about simple logic if I buy something on DVD, I expect DVD quality ala 2006.

I’m an original member here dating back to 2004. Haven’t posted in years, but looking forward to posting again.

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Gomer, on a HD tv, they look WORSE than the laserdisc. They are either zoomed into blurriness, or SQUEEZED/DISTORTED, making all the people squat stocky midgets. Maybe you enjoy six hours of that.
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It looks worse than a laserdisc on that same TV?

To me the point of this September release is so I don't have to watch them on stretched out VHS tapes, or Laserdiscs you have to flip a couple of times for each movie.

To me this is better than it was.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
It looks worse than a laserdisc on that same TV?

To me the point of this September release is so I don't have to watch them on stretched out VHS tapes, or Laserdiscs you have to flip a couple of times for each movie.

To me this is better than it was.



DUDE ITS FUCKIN DVD!!!!!! Not Laserdisk!!! This is got to be the dumbest back and forth conversation. Peace out and enjoy grainy DVD's while the rest of the world watches their other movies in Anamorphic DVD quality.

I’m an original member here dating back to 2004. Haven’t posted in years, but looking forward to posting again.

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I just remember the day I got my laserdiscs of the O-OT, thinking that it would never get any better than that.

Now I'm hearing people say it's bad to the point of being torturous.

It just seems to me that to a certain extent, Lucas isn't the only one who is pretending the O-OT doesn't exist anymore.


It's bad because the industry has moved on. We've gone from VHS to Laserdisc to DVD. Slapping a laserdisc quality movie on a DVD doesn't make it any better.

It's bad because a lot of us have HDTVs and like to watch the movies we love in the best quality possible. Laserdisc quality is not the best possible, not by a long shot. We have better technology and better formats now. Lucas used a better medium (DVD) but he left the quality looking like crap (LD). Yes, LD was excellent and the best it could be 10+ years ago. Today, it's crap.

The industry has moved on, but Lucas hasn't.

EDIT: BTW, I choose to watch Moth3r's DVDs when I want to watch SW. I've seen the comparisons with the GOUT and other fan preservations and Moth3r's look the best to me. I use to watch Dr. Gonzo's, but Moth3r's are clearly superior.
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

Now I'm hearing people say it's bad to the point of being torturous.


Image quality is important to me. The quality of this latest release was rather lame and that's why I didn't even purchase this latest release. Nobody here is claiming to be tortured. We're displeased and complaining.

Is it somehow wrong for us to have different values from you, Go-Mer?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I just remember the day I got my laserdiscs of the O-OT, thinking that it would never get any better than that.

Now I'm hearing people say it's bad to the point of being torturous.

It just seems to me that to a certain extent, Lucas isn't the only one who is pretending the O-OT doesn't exist anymore.

Time has moved on. Standards in home video technology have drastically improved. Standards in film restauration have drastically improved. You can now get DVD´s for under ten bucks which have far better picture and sound quality than most Laserdiscs, which were VERY expensive back then, not to mention the playback equipment. This is the minimun standard that a DVD from a major studio has to achieve. It is fairly easy to achieve, unless you are a very very small studio with hardly any money. This release is a little bit better than of bootlegging quality. While may be state of the art in 1993 (I have some Laserdiscs which look much better than these), now it´s just plain ridicolous. Especially if you compare this to other releases coming from other studios. The picture was HEAVILY DVNR'ed while making the transfer. You have heavy ghosting and all other totally undesirable effects in the transfer, which is TOTALLY, and I really mean TOTALLY substandard nowadays.

But how many times do we have to say that? How many threads with detailed descriptions and explanations do you need to get this into your bonehead? Either you just ignore our points we are making, repeating and repeating yourself, and are practically wasting our time, or you have a very bad short term memory and you do not re-read threads you are posting in.


To me the point of this September release is so I don't have to watch them on stretched out VHS tapes, or Laserdiscs you have to flip a couple of times for each movie.

To me this is better than it was.


No, it´s worse, dude. I live in a PAL country. We use our own television system with 100 lines more resolution. The PAL Laserdiscs I own were mastered from a true PAL source, yielding 100 lines more resolution than the NTSC Laserdiscs. The GOUT release however, even the PAL release, was UPSTRETCHED from the NTSC master. Do you know how horrible that looks? Especially on my 16:9 CRT television?

Sorry, but you don´t have a fucking idea. You are one of those guys, which have just a basic premise ("defend Lucas!") and are building ridiculous arguments up, playing ignorant where important arguments have been issued, and repeating the same preconcieved shit over and over again when you are out of arguments. You are much more often on these forums than I am. You most certainly have read these information I gave you right now at least multiple times. Yet, it did not sink into your brain.

Having an opposite view here can be quite healthy. But not if you deliberately choose to filter out information which does not fit into your world view.
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I have never seen the pal laserdiscs, I didn't realize they had better resolution.

I haven't forgotten the rest of that. I understand the industry has moved on.

I am just saying that it's better than what I had before, and I'm just trying to illustrate why it seems a little extreme to say you can't watch it, or that your only choice is to love the SE.

Set against the backdrop of growing up in an era where it just didn't get better than laserdisc, the way some people make it out like they just can't watch it because it so horribe seems a tad over the top.

How many of us were fine when we got our widescreen VHS's back in the day?

How many of us were upset about the graineyness when it was out on laserdisc?

It's not that they got worse, it's that we became more demanding.

For me, wether I was watching it on Pan N Scan or on my black and white TV in my room, or even just listening to the storybook album before I had access to home video, the spirit is still there. To me these movies trancend their presentation.

I'm not saying anyone else is wrong for not being able to enjoy it unless it's the best it can possibly be in this day and age, I'm just saying that to me the September release seems to be a whole lot better than what we had before. Even if it isn't PAL resolution laserdisc, I still don't have to flip the disc during each movie.

Last night I popped in Star Wars on my PC and got fairly close to the monitor. I can certainly see what you guys are saying about the resolution and the jaggy lines and the graineyness. But at the same time I think the colors and general sharpness is pretty good. One thing I love the most about this release is the way you get the image instability. To me that instantly nails that feeling I had watching the originals in the theater, where it all looks so real, but has that twitch to it that your brain adjusts to, but still gives you that slight feeling like you are hallucinating or something. Like this "reality" is slightly off the tracks.

I really enjoyed watching it on my PC, but I'll have to try to get my hands on a widescreen TV to see exactly what you guys are talking about.
Your focus determines your reality.