Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Originally posted by: Vigo
That's okay. I feel the same way about people who demonize Lucas. Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I don't deny the business side of Lucas, I just think that his idea of good business is to make the best product he can. I realise the non Anamorphic release isn't the best he could have done. To him the SE version was the best he could do. Then why did he put the OOT in it in the first place, from this point of view?
Inferior films in shoddy quality. What about his "artistic vision"(tm) ? Well, having the original versions seemed to be really important to us.
Yeah, but what about his artistic vision then?
To be honest, for me, it serves my purpose of practicising the english language. And I like discussing with PEOPLE. To challenge my view against other views, and gain a higher state of consciousness. This is my "artistic vision".
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The way I see it, he is stubborn about his vision, but gracious about the diversity of opinions out there.
Yes, of course we can all be so thankful that he so "gracious" about the diversity of opinions. Sorry, this is almost like hearing someone talking, who is not a fan but a member of a cult. I don't deny the business side of Lucas, I just think that his idea of good business is to make the best product he can. I realise the non Anamorphic release isn't the best he could have done. To him the SE version was the best he could do. Then why did he put the OOT in it in the first place, from this point of view?
Inferior films in shoddy quality. What about his "artistic vision"(tm) ? Well, having the original versions seemed to be really important to us. Yeah, but what about his artistic vision then?
Originally posted by: Vigo
My question is why do we need to do that in reverse? What does that gain for us? What purpose does that serve? Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I just also understand where Lucas is coming from. I don't think it's about disrespecting the people who don't agree with him as much as he is respecting his own vision for it with a determined passion. Yeah, he is respecting his own vision so much, like changing the movies over and over again in each new release, always claiming that these have ALWAYS been his visions. Well I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't think he is really trying to claim that he had the whole vision for the SW saga from the very beginning. I think he means to say that most of the things he did to change the classic trilogy were the result of things he couldn't originally do exactly the way he had hoped he could do it. Also each release has represented his "definative" vision "at the time" I think there was part of him that thought that he might only go so far with it, but then as he went he decided to go even further.
Like I said, if George Lucas does something, which might be a clear hint that he is just fooling around, the die hard fans will do the thinking and arguing for him to cover up his ass.
Well, this says a lot about the affection these "fans" pretend to have for those films.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You don't see him putting down all the ways we might have done it differently.He doesn´t need to, since he is in the position to get his way, no matter what everyone else thinks.Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
He doesn't say that the people who disagree with him are not artistically competant.
Again, he doesn´t need to. I just also understand where Lucas is coming from. I don't think it's about disrespecting the people who don't agree with him as much as he is respecting his own vision for it with a determined passion. Yeah, he is respecting his own vision so much, like changing the movies over and over again in each new release, always claiming that these have ALWAYS been his visions.
Well I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't think he is really trying to claim that he had the whole vision for the SW saga from the very beginning. I think he means to say that most of the things he did to change the classic trilogy were the result of things he couldn't originally do exactly the way he had hoped he could do it. Also each release has represented his "definative" vision "at the time" I think there was part of him that thought that he might only go so far with it, but then as he went he decided to go even further. Like I said, if George Lucas does something, which might be a clear hint that he is just fooling around, the die hard fans will do the thinking and arguing for him to cover up his ass.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Honestly, you don´t believe this crap yourself, do you? Yes, I think Lucas has by and large been pretty honest about all of this. I think that he is just not the best public speaker, and with the way the media tends to present things out of context, he is largely just misunderstood.
Glad he has someone like you, who clears everything up for him.
And yet somehow a lot of us do.
Honestly, you don´t believe this crap yourself, do you? Yes, I think Lucas has by and large been pretty honest about all of this. I think that he is just not the best public speaker, and with the way the media tends to present things out of context, he is largely just misunderstood.
Glad he has someone like you, who clears everything up for him.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Well, I say what I think, and his actions clearly back this theory up. Why should he actually care more, if everyone is rubbing his balls?
Again, the misconception that he actually released the OOT to please fans. They did it to clear the inventory and dry up the bootleg market. He said himself that he doesn´t care. Period.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The worst he did was not produce the versions everyone wanted to have on DVD.
The worst thing he did was destroying the original negative of the original Star Wars films. For every Star Wars fan, this should be unforgivable. Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Nobody could talk him out of making SW in the first place, and a lot of people thought he was crazy to do it in the first place. Why would he suddenly come to the conclusion that his detractors are right now? I think it is a bit selfish to not give a crap about the people who prefer the originals, but I honesty don't see many of those people giving a crap about what he wants either. You are right. With one small little mistake: Star Wars is not art. It´s a franchise, a product. A franchise is supposed to make money. And it only makes money, if it pleases the customers, i.e. the price is right according to the product´s value. Everything else is wishful thinking. You said it yourself, GL won´t be pissing money away for a non-profitable OOT restauration. So i won´t be pissing away my money for him. Simple. I think that art and business can both mutually exist if the artist is also the businessman. Lucas' artistic sensibilities are preserved in the SE version and whatever version is coming next year.
Sorry, but this is no art. This is commercially driven rubbish. Popcorn and Hamburger for the senses. Star Wars was never meant to be anything different. It´s space opera. This whole nonsense about his "artistic vision" came up when he tried to justify the changes made to the original movies, and market the new cgi effects in the special edition, to test if the time and technology was right for the prequel trilogy.
You were starting ok, but now, this arguments clearly becomes ridiculous.
For him to re-release the older versions, that's purely a consumer demand issue for him. If that can't be done without losing money, then he doesn't see the business sense in doing it. Artistically, he didn't want to re-release it at all.
What you are basically saying is the followoing:
- Releasing the old movies is a business decision from Lucas
- Constantly altering the old trilogy in order to sell the same old movies over and over again is now an "artistic decision"???
Sorry, now you are being REALLY ridiculous.
And I never said something different. Of course, he may do whatever he likes to his movies. He may even burn the original negatives, and call this artistic self expression.
I only care for the original movies, and judge the decision he makes from this point of view. Who I don´t get is the fans, who are constantly trying to justify his decisions. I mean, shouldn´t a STAR WARS fan be concerned that the original movies are properly preserved for the future? Where is the logic to defend Lucas, whose "artistic vision" is clearly destroying the movies people grew up with? Destroying the original negatives. Preventing public viewings of original 35mm copies of the OOT.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I'm not pointing fingers here, but surely you have to admit there have been a lot of insults sent his way.Well, so what? What is YOUR concern about this? This guy is a big boy, with loads of money and who doesn´t care about his fanbase. You certainly don´t have to jump for him into the bushes, defending him from everyone who is so mean to him to put him VERBALLY down. The only reason I really speak out about this is because I think that if we want him to care more about us, we have to be reasonable about it. If all we do is cry out that Lucas is a cold hearted businessman with no artistic intent in the first place, well I don't see why he -should- care more than he has.
Nobody could talk him out of making SW in the first place, and a lot of people thought he was crazy to do it in the first place. Why would he suddenly come to the conclusion that his detractors are right now? I think it is a bit selfish to not give a crap about the people who prefer the originals, but I honesty don't see many of those people giving a crap about what he wants either. You are right. With one small little mistake: Star Wars is not art. It´s a franchise, a product. A franchise is supposed to make money. And it only makes money, if it pleases the customers, i.e. the price is right according to the product´s value. Everything else is wishful thinking. You said it yourself, GL won´t be pissing money away for a non-profitable OOT restauration. So i won´t be pissing away my money for him. Simple.
I think that art and business can both mutually exist if the artist is also the businessman. Lucas' artistic sensibilities are preserved in the SE version and whatever version is coming next year. Sorry, but this is no art. This is commercially driven rubbish. Popcorn and Hamburger for the senses. Star Wars was never meant to be anything different. It´s space opera. This whole nonsense about his "artistic vision" came up when he tried to justify the changes made to the original movies, and market the new cgi effects in the special edition, to test if the time and technology was right for the prequel trilogy.
You were starting ok, but now, this arguments clearly becomes ridiculous.
For him to re-release the older versions, that's purely a consumer demand issue for him. If that can't be done without losing money, then he doesn't see the business sense in doing it. Artistically, he didn't want to re-release it at all.
What you are basically saying is the followoing:
- Releasing the old movies is a business decision from Lucas
- Constantly altering the old trilogy in order to sell the same old movies over and over again is now an "artistic decision"???
Sorry, now you are being REALLY ridiculous.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I know some of you have no problem with his changes as long as the original is provided along side of it, but by and large there is a lot of crap being flung in Lucas general direction over all of this. While I can relate to the hard feelings over his suppression of the O-OT and now his lackluster presentation of the O-OT, I think that there is a lot of disrespect given to him beyond that, putting down his artistic vision to the point where you might get the idea that SW was great despite Lucas. Well, if such a lot of disrespect is given to his artistic vision, doesn´t it occur to you that perhaps he might have screwed up the last few years, artistically? (Not monetary, all prequel Star Wars films did very well at the boxoffice). Why are these issues like "Han shoots first!!" so popular? Is everyone an ignorant bastard, who is incapable of seeing Lucas "artistic vision" behind it?
I think what happens is people get attatched to things. I can relate to the way a lot of people fell in love with the originals, and would just prefer to remember them that way. I don't think there is anything wrong with being disappointed in the changes, and I think there is nothing wrong with asking Lucas to reconsider his stance on releasing the originals. The thing is, not everyone cares about who shot first. Not everyone cares about the switch to Hayden Ghost in ROTJ. Some people actually think that's just fine. I for one think that by and large, Lucas hasn't really altered the classic trilogy. I think all the changes are mostly cosmetic, and don't alter the storyline or characters in any signifigant way. So yeah a lot of people weren't impressed, but that doesn't mean his artistic vision for these films is "wrong" it just means you don't like it. I know some of you have no problem with his changes as long as the original is provided along side of it, but by and large there is a lot of crap being flung in Lucas general direction over all of this. While I can relate to the hard feelings over his suppression of the O-OT and now his lackluster presentation of the O-OT, I think that there is a lot of disrespect given to him beyond that, putting down his artistic vision to the point where you might get the idea that SW was great despite Lucas. Well, if such a lot of disrespect is given to his artistic vision, doesn´t it occur to you that perhaps he might have screwed up the last few years, artistically? (Not monetary, all prequel Star Wars films did very well at the boxoffice). Why are these issues like "Han shoots first!!" so popular? Is everyone an ignorant bastard, who is incapable of seeing Lucas "artistic vision" behind it?
And I never said something different. Of course, he may do whatever he likes to his movies. He may even burn the original negatives, and call this artistic self expression.
I only care for the original movies, and judge the decision he makes from this point of view. Who I don´t get is the fans, who are constantly trying to justify his decisions. I mean, shouldn´t a STAR WARS fan be concerned that the original movies are properly preserved for the future? Where is the logic to defend Lucas, whose "artistic vision" is clearly destroying the movies people grew up with? Destroying the original negatives. Preventing public viewings of original 35mm copies of the OOT.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I'm not pointing fingers here, but surely you have to admit there have been a lot of insults sent his way.
Well, I say what I think, and his actions clearly back this theory up. Why should he actually care more, if everyone is rubbing his balls?
Again, the misconception that he actually released the OOT to please fans. They did it to clear the inventory and dry up the bootleg market. He said himself that he doesn´t care. Period.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The worst he did was not produce the versions everyone wanted to have on DVD.
Well, this says a lot about the affection these "fans" pretend to have for those films.
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You don't see him putting down all the ways we might have done it differently.
He doesn't say that the people who disagree with him are not artistically competant.
To be honest, for me, it serves my purpose of practicising the english language.
And I like discussing with PEOPLE. To challenge my view against other views, and gain a higher state of consciousness. This is my "artistic vision". Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The way I see it, he is stubborn about his vision, but gracious about the diversity of opinions out there.
Well, a demon implies negative emotions towards his fans or other people. I don´t think he has them. I don´t think he has any particular positive emotions towards his fans either. Like I said, Lucasfilm is a company, and clearly acts as such. Maximize profits. Selling the same stuff over and over again most efficiently. Going as far as permanently destroying the original movies. This is no art, this is fast food for the masses.