Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I agree that the "I am your father" is ruined for the audience, but I think it still works on a dramatic level to have the surprise be just for Luke. We see that Anakin is Vader in the prequels, then we see Ben flat out lying to Luke about Vader killing Anakin, so after Yoda and Obi-Wan beg Luke not to leave before he is trained because he's not ready and he leaves anyway, we get to that part where Vader tells him the truth and the audience then wonders... Crap, how is Luke going to take being lied to by Obi-Wan? Is he going to be able to still trust his teachings? Is he going to say screw Obi-Wan, he's no better than Vader as Anakin said about Palpatine vs the Jedi?
We don't find out until the next movie, which starts out with Luke dressed up like Evil Anakin in black robes, force choking gammorean guards and telling Jabba not to underestimate his power.
To me this whole dynamic ratchets up the tension quite a bit with the way it all flows now.
First, those questions are absolutely needless in those scenes and only serve to distract from the story’s emotions. (What good are they to ask at those points?) The OT is not enhanced by those thoughts in any way as far as I can tell. At best, what happens in the OT only serves to enhance the PT.
Second, you don’t need the PT to have the concern that Luke might go to the dark side. The OT sets that up sufficiently and beautifully. And besides, let’s be realistic here, there’s only so far that kind of suspense can go. Seriously, he’s the freakin’ hero of the story! Anyone who cannot invest faith in his goodness probably isn’t enjoying the movies in the first place.
Heh, if you can argue for that assessment without the slightest reservation, then I truly feel sorry for you. The Darth Vader revelation is awesome every single time for me. It has NEVER been “fleeting.” You just have to watch movies with a fresh mind and forget the context of scenes that are out of order. It makes for very enjoyable viewing. I never knew you were so feeble, Go-Mer.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Now, to keep that surprise, you have to show a first time viewer the classic trilogy first. The problem with that is you lose most of the surprises in the prequels. You know going in that Palpatine is Sidious, you know going in that the Jedi are going to be made all but extinct, you know going in that only Yoda and Ben survive, you know going in that Anakin does not do the right thing in the end, you know going in that Padme won't survive. You know going in that the Republic will become the Emprie. The list goes on and on.
All for one surprise that only works the first time you see it.
I agree that the "I am your father" is ruined for the audience, but I think it still works on a dramatic level to have the surprise be just for Luke. We see that Anakin is Vader in the prequels, then we see Ben flat out lying to Luke about Vader killing Anakin, so after Yoda and Obi-Wan beg Luke not to leave before he is trained because he's not ready and he leaves anyway, we get to that part where Vader tells him the truth and the audience then wonders... Crap, how is Luke going to take being lied to by Obi-Wan? Is he going to be able to still trust his teachings? Is he going to say screw Obi-Wan, he's no better than Vader as Anakin said about Palpatine vs the Jedi?
We don't find out until the next movie, which starts out with Luke dressed up like Evil Anakin in black robes, force choking gammorean guards and telling Jabba not to underestimate his power.
To me this whole dynamic ratchets up the tension quite a bit with the way it all flows now.
First, those questions are absolutely needless in those scenes and only serve to distract from the story’s emotions. (What good are they to ask at those points?) The OT is not enhanced by those thoughts in any way as far as I can tell. At best, what happens in the OT only serves to enhance the PT.
Second, you don’t need the PT to have the concern that Luke might go to the dark side. The OT sets that up sufficiently and beautifully. And besides, let’s be realistic here, there’s only so far that kind of suspense can go. Seriously, he’s the freakin’ hero of the story! Anyone who cannot invest faith in his goodness probably isn’t enjoying the movies in the first place.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Again nothing against the landmark surprise of "I am your father", no doubt that is one of the biggest surprises in cinema history.
But is is a very fleeting surprise.
Again nothing against the landmark surprise of "I am your father", no doubt that is one of the biggest surprises in cinema history.
But is is a very fleeting surprise.
Heh, if you can argue for that assessment without the slightest reservation, then I truly feel sorry for you. The Darth Vader revelation is awesome every single time for me. It has NEVER been “fleeting.” You just have to watch movies with a fresh mind and forget the context of scenes that are out of order. It makes for very enjoyable viewing. I never knew you were so feeble, Go-Mer.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Now, to keep that surprise, you have to show a first time viewer the classic trilogy first. The problem with that is you lose most of the surprises in the prequels. You know going in that Palpatine is Sidious, you know going in that the Jedi are going to be made all but extinct, you know going in that only Yoda and Ben survive, you know going in that Anakin does not do the right thing in the end, you know going in that Padme won't survive. You know going in that the Republic will become the Emprie. The list goes on and on.
All for one surprise that only works the first time you see it.
Interesting point, the PT did have its share of revelations, like any story, but, quite frankly, it’s almost impossible to be edge of your seat for those PT developments. From bad acting, to bad dialogue, to childish views of the world and absolutely evil motivations on the part of the heroes, there’s not much for normal people to care about. The Vader/Father revelation alone is of more value than all of those other points put together.
Secondly, what do you mean “one surprise”? You seriously believe the OT has only one surprise?! Sorry to dare contradicting your strong feeling on this matter, but ANH, ESB, and RotJ all have very large plot revelations that are completely ruined by the PT if you start with them as the intended context. I mean, wow, are you sure that you are even taking this conversation seriously, Go-Mer? Yikes.