Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Well I don't think personal values are evil or less important than universal values, it's a balancing act between the two.
Hear you nothing that I say?
If your motivations and actions are pure, then there is no conflict between universal and personal values. The two can work together perfectly and in that situation you would have no need to balance anything. It’s very simple and you should be able to follow what I’m saying here.
Heh, so you agree with me that the line was logically stupid, but you enjoy it because it then shows that Obi-Wan is evil too?
LOL
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
We have a situation where Anakin has been told since 9 that he is "the chosen one". That the Force created him for the purpose of "bringing balance" to the force. He has the Jedi in one ear talking about what they see as what's good. He has the Emperor in the other ear talking about what he thinks is "right". He knows that all the chaos and war are the direct result of these two Force based religions, and as you pointed out, the Jedi aren't exactly saints in the whole matter either.
He knows Sidious is evil. He sees all the ways the Jedi have been acting selfishly, against the Jedi Code itself. To me it isn't such a huge leap to see why he would see fit to judge them all. After all, he was bringing balance back to the Force. If he was the chosen one, then why shouldn't he be the one to make them agree?
Well I don't think personal values are evil or less important than universal values, it's a balancing act between the two.
Hear you nothing that I say?
If your motivations and actions are pure, then there is no conflict between universal and personal values. The two can work together perfectly and in that situation you would have no need to balance anything. It’s very simple and you should be able to follow what I’m saying here.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I'm not sure I follow. The whole saga seems to show both sides of the same coins. In the prequels, we see things from the perspective of a "good" establishment that is fighting an "evil" rebellion, and in the classic trilogy we see things from the perspective of a "good" rebellion that is fighting an "evil" establishment.
I don't think Lucas is preaching as much as he's showing both sides to everything and letting the viewer come to their own conclusions about what is "right and wrong".
Two sides of an ethical coin are often nice to consider, however that’s not what I was talking about. You were condemning Anakin for caring too much about his personal values, yet for you to propose that ethic is hypocritical when you consider the prequels as a whole. There are many times, in the prequels, when the Jedi cared for personal things. Therefore when they claim to reject personal desires and attachments, they are being obvious liars. (It almost makes me wonder if they were teasing Anakin with fake rules just to provoke him.) I’d love to see you argue for how the Jedi were being consistent on this issue, Go-Mer.
Let me try to explain my point once more: We all have personal motivations that could easily hurt other people or be unfair in a universal context if we blindly acted upon them. Yet we are rational creatures and can analyze our actions before we make them. Knowing that, we can then argue that it is always possible to act on our personal values in ways that are completely compatible with universal values. The evil or goodness of an action is thus not based upon “balancing” different perspectives, but upon analyzing cold, hard truths.
Anyways, as a side note, your two-sided analogy there breaks down. The establishment is clearly evil in many ways the prequel trilogy. Even the supposedly virtuous Jedi are depicted as arrogant, overconfident, complacent, and compromised. Heh, the only good qualities within the establishment and the Jedi in particular are proven to be wholly incompetent over the course of the prequels.
To me that's more interesting than if it wasn't questionable. The whole saga is about the concept of good and evil. The message is a lot of that comes down to point of view.
I'm not sure I follow. The whole saga seems to show both sides of the same coins. In the prequels, we see things from the perspective of a "good" establishment that is fighting an "evil" rebellion, and in the classic trilogy we see things from the perspective of a "good" rebellion that is fighting an "evil" establishment.
I don't think Lucas is preaching as much as he's showing both sides to everything and letting the viewer come to their own conclusions about what is "right and wrong".
Two sides of an ethical coin are often nice to consider, however that’s not what I was talking about. You were condemning Anakin for caring too much about his personal values, yet for you to propose that ethic is hypocritical when you consider the prequels as a whole. There are many times, in the prequels, when the Jedi cared for personal things. Therefore when they claim to reject personal desires and attachments, they are being obvious liars. (It almost makes me wonder if they were teasing Anakin with fake rules just to provoke him.) I’d love to see you argue for how the Jedi were being consistent on this issue, Go-Mer.
Let me try to explain my point once more: We all have personal motivations that could easily hurt other people or be unfair in a universal context if we blindly acted upon them. Yet we are rational creatures and can analyze our actions before we make them. Knowing that, we can then argue that it is always possible to act on our personal values in ways that are completely compatible with universal values. The evil or goodness of an action is thus not based upon “balancing” different perspectives, but upon analyzing cold, hard truths.
Anyways, as a side note, your two-sided analogy there breaks down. The establishment is clearly evil in many ways the prequel trilogy. Even the supposedly virtuous Jedi are depicted as arrogant, overconfident, complacent, and compromised. Heh, the only good qualities within the establishment and the Jedi in particular are proven to be wholly incompetent over the course of the prequels.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
That line is actually dumb to me since Obi-Wan uses the word “only.” He can’t attack the use of absolutes by using an absolute. Plus, the Jedi talk in terms of absolutes all the time if you follow the prequel trilogy alone. It’s a totally hypocritical line of dialogue. I don’t know what George was thinking . . . he probably wasn’t.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Only a Sith lord deals in absolutes! (I love that line)
Only a Sith lord deals in absolutes! (I love that line
) That line is actually dumb to me since Obi-Wan uses the word “only.” He can’t attack the use of absolutes by using an absolute. Plus, the Jedi talk in terms of absolutes all the time if you follow the prequel trilogy alone. It’s a totally hypocritical line of dialogue. I don’t know what George was thinking . . . he probably wasn’t.
To me that's more interesting than if it wasn't questionable. The whole saga is about the concept of good and evil. The message is a lot of that comes down to point of view.
Heh, so you agree with me that the line was logically stupid, but you enjoy it because it then shows that Obi-Wan is evil too?
LOL
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
We have a situation where Anakin has been told since 9 that he is "the chosen one". That the Force created him for the purpose of "bringing balance" to the force. He has the Jedi in one ear talking about what they see as what's good. He has the Emperor in the other ear talking about what he thinks is "right". He knows that all the chaos and war are the direct result of these two Force based religions, and as you pointed out, the Jedi aren't exactly saints in the whole matter either.
He knows Sidious is evil. He sees all the ways the Jedi have been acting selfishly, against the Jedi Code itself. To me it isn't such a huge leap to see why he would see fit to judge them all. After all, he was bringing balance back to the Force. If he was the chosen one, then why shouldn't he be the one to make them agree?
Why shouldn’t he be the one to make everyone agree? Because he doesn’t mind murdering countless innocent children as a way to relieve his comparatively-trivial, emotional discomfort.
Sorry, but Anakin just isn’t likeable. Seriously, I’d love to hear your explanation as to why you think a psychopath is such a cool character, but instead you keep trying to justify his actions or make excuses for him and they just don’t work. His problems do not come close to justifying what he did.