Originally posted by: Tiptup
We have a situation where Anakin has been told since 9 that he is "the chosen one". That the Force created him for the purpose of "bringing balance" to the force. He has the Jedi in one ear talking about what they see as what's good. He has the Emperor in the other ear talking about what he thinks is "right". He knows that all the chaos and war are the direct result of these two Force based religions, and as you pointed out, the Jedi aren't exactly saints in the whole matter either.Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Could you be more specific as to what you find to contradict what I am seeing? To me Anakin's desire to save Padme from possible death is a good thing. It's personal for Anakin because he has a personal interest in keeping her around because he loves her. The path he goes down in pursuit of that goal pushes the whole galaxy into the dark times of the Empire. In that way, Anakin put himself above the rest of the galaxy and it ended up being bad for everyone. No, what you are seeing there is totally accurate. The problem is when you try to say that personal values are somehow evil or less important than universal values. That is a simplistic and wrong concept even if you only analyze the motivations from the prequel movies. There were many, many times where prequel-trilogy characters acted from personal motivations to intentionally accomplish things that are good for everyone. They personally desired things that were compatible with and helped work for the greater good. Well I don't think personal values are evil or less important than universal values, it's a balancing act between the two.
Anakin had it all worked out in his head that what he was doing was for the greater good of the galaxy, but it was all really motivated by his selfish desire to save Padme from a potential death. His rationalization was just how he coped with that decision.
I see how that works. But that’s really stupid. Anakin would have needed to be completely retarded to ever believe that rationalization justified his actions. Its far too weak otherwise. I never saw Anakin’s intellect debilitated in that way though, so again, I believe we can only conclude he was a psychopath. Either that or George Lucas just messed up. Could you be more specific as to what you find to contradict what I am seeing? To me Anakin's desire to save Padme from possible death is a good thing. It's personal for Anakin because he has a personal interest in keeping her around because he loves her. The path he goes down in pursuit of that goal pushes the whole galaxy into the dark times of the Empire. In that way, Anakin put himself above the rest of the galaxy and it ended up being bad for everyone. No, what you are seeing there is totally accurate. The problem is when you try to say that personal values are somehow evil or less important than universal values. That is a simplistic and wrong concept even if you only analyze the motivations from the prequel movies. There were many, many times where prequel-trilogy characters acted from personal motivations to intentionally accomplish things that are good for everyone. They personally desired things that were compatible with and helped work for the greater good. Well I don't think personal values are evil or less important than universal values, it's a balancing act between the two.
Seriously, how can you even value the “greater good” if you don’t value the greater in a “personal” sense? Also, did not Anakin of the prequels believe that his personal desires for power were for the greater good in some way?
In ethics, there is no clear distinction between personal values and universal values. The greatest goal in this regard is to seek a state where our personal desires are compatible with the greater good. Even the prequel trilogy teaches this in a straightforward sense, over and over again. The characters have personal desires that are good because they are on the side of the greater good. To have the movies preach an ethic that contradicts the ethic that is taught through its portrayed deeds and motivations seems a little pathetic to me. There’s no way you can say that the Jedi in the prequels throw away their personal desires or sentimental attachment. They just don’t. I can pick out numerous examples where they acted in personal ways. I'm not sure I follow. The whole saga seems to show both sides of the same coins. In the prequels, we see things from the perspective of a "good" establishment that is fighting an "evil" rebellion, and in the classic trilogy we see things from the perspective of a "good" rebellion that is fighting an "evil" establishment.
I don't think Lucas is preaching as much as he's showing both sides to everything and letting the viewer come to their own conclusions about what is "right and wrong".
That line is actually dumb to me since Obi-Wan uses the word “only.” He can’t attack the use of absolutes by using an absolute. Plus, the Jedi talk in terms of absolutes all the time if you follow the prequel trilogy alone. It’s a totally hypocritical line of dialogue. I don’t know what George was thinking . . . he probably wasn’t.To me that's more interesting than if it wasn't questionable. The whole saga is about the concept of good and evil. The message is a lot of that comes down to point of view.Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Anyway, I don't see Anakin as a complete psychopath. When it comes to the Tusken Raider slaughter, Anakin knows what he did was wrong after he did it, so you could argue temporary insanity brought on by the trauma of having his mother die in his arms because of them. As far as slaughtering the younglings and betraying the Jedi order, he did rationalize that even if only to himself:
"I will not betray the Republic."
"My loyalties are with the Chancellor, and the senate, and with you."
"From my point of view the Jedi are evil".
In ethics, there is no clear distinction between personal values and universal values. The greatest goal in this regard is to seek a state where our personal desires are compatible with the greater good. Even the prequel trilogy teaches this in a straightforward sense, over and over again. The characters have personal desires that are good because they are on the side of the greater good. To have the movies preach an ethic that contradicts the ethic that is taught through its portrayed deeds and motivations seems a little pathetic to me. There’s no way you can say that the Jedi in the prequels throw away their personal desires or sentimental attachment. They just don’t. I can pick out numerous examples where they acted in personal ways. I'm not sure I follow. The whole saga seems to show both sides of the same coins. In the prequels, we see things from the perspective of a "good" establishment that is fighting an "evil" rebellion, and in the classic trilogy we see things from the perspective of a "good" rebellion that is fighting an "evil" establishment.
I don't think Lucas is preaching as much as he's showing both sides to everything and letting the viewer come to their own conclusions about what is "right and wrong".
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Only a Sith lord deals in absolutes! (I love that line
)
Only a Sith lord deals in absolutes! (I love that line
) That line is actually dumb to me since Obi-Wan uses the word “only.” He can’t attack the use of absolutes by using an absolute. Plus, the Jedi talk in terms of absolutes all the time if you follow the prequel trilogy alone. It’s a totally hypocritical line of dialogue. I don’t know what George was thinking . . . he probably wasn’t.
Anyway, I don't see Anakin as a complete psychopath. When it comes to the Tusken Raider slaughter, Anakin knows what he did was wrong after he did it, so you could argue temporary insanity brought on by the trauma of having his mother die in his arms because of them. As far as slaughtering the younglings and betraying the Jedi order, he did rationalize that even if only to himself:
"I will not betray the Republic."
"My loyalties are with the Chancellor, and the senate, and with you."
"From my point of view the Jedi are evil".
Anakin had it all worked out in his head that what he was doing was for the greater good of the galaxy, but it was all really motivated by his selfish desire to save Padme from a potential death. His rationalization was just how he coped with that decision.
He knows Sidious is evil. He sees all the ways the Jedi have been acting selfishly, against the Jedi Code itself. To me it isn't such a huge leap to see why he would see fit to judge them all. After all, he was bringing balance back to the Force. If he was the chosen one, then why shouldn't he be the one to make them agree?