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MOVED THREAD — Page 4

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I believe TM meant that if somebody is religious all their lives, and they die, they loose nothing. They cease to exist never having been none the wiser. If an atheist dies, and it turn out there is a god, then he does have a lot to loose.

Also judging by the last post zombie made, I am starting to become pretty sure he is pulling this stuff out of the clouds, and really has no idea what he is talking about. I have done a lot of study in Biblical archeology, there is nothing to claim the Jews were polytheistic. There were several times throughout history when many of them fell away from God and worshiped idols or false gods, but they never flip flopped on their own God. You have been terribly misinformed about this matter. And if you are claiming that the Old Testament depicts multiple gods, then I know you have no clue as to what you are saying. Maybe some scientist wrote a book about this or something, and since you whole heartedly trust all scientists so it has to be true. There are several names for God used in the Old Testament, this doesn't give any basis for claims that the Jews were polytheists, your whole thing about the translation trying to hind this fact is not true. Also you keep claiming that as you are bashing believers that you aren't really, you are just bashing flat-eathers. Okay, I really don't think there are any flat-earthers here. If there are, I too will take up a hammer and assist you in bashing them. Stop using this ridiculous excuse. I agree with you that it is undisputable that the earth is round, anybody today will agree with you, save for the same people who claim we have never gone to the moon.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
Originally posted by: Trooperman

Another thing to keep in mind:

1. What do the Christians lose if God doesn’t exist? Nothing.
2. What do the atheists lose if God does exist?

Everything.


Ehmm... I really don't get what you're saying here. If God doesn't exist it seems to me Christians loose everything. If there's no God then there's probabably no heaven. It seems to me if you felt your whole life you were being guided by God and then you find out he doesn't exist you seriously doubt yourself. Away is your purpose you thought you had.

And if an atheists finds out there is a God? He looses everything? I don't believe in God but if for some reason I change my mind I loose everything? I think most Christians will say I've finally seen the light. So I'm not loosing anything. I'm gaining a whole lot!


All he is trying to say is that even if by chance we are wrong in that Christ is the only way, we will die and simply end up like everyone else. Indifferent because we are worm food. If you are wrong, you will have an eternity to think about that.

Just like zombie, so many think that it is absolutely unloving of God to force Christ to be the only way. They don't see that He had paved our way through the blood of His only begotten son. Those like him think that God owes him salvation if He were real, but that is a choice that everyone must make.

You just have to be careful not to reject Christ because you don't want Him to be real, rather than simply just don't buy into all of this. No one is forcing anything, it has always been a choice.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Originally posted by: zombie84
Okay, now this is just fucking stupid. Do you really believe this? Are you so deluded, so ignorant to objective evidence that you could possible have such an incredibly dumb opinion such as this? If this is the level of intellect that this discussion has devolved to, then theres not much hope. It really saddens me to see human beings living in the year 2006 and still believing such incredible bullshit such as this, especially when they are probably intelligent in most other respects. Whatever. Like I said, religious people are less educated than atheists but they are also happier--i hope you find a lifetime of bliss in your ignorance.


Your maturity level is staggering.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
The painting doesn't look very convincing.

The carvings are a different story. But I know nothing about them. It's interesting though and I'll look for some other info on the internet.


I really hope you do. There are tons to see, some have even been found at the Grand Canyon as I understand.

Mistakes are easily made and the carving of what looks like a triceratops looks more like a horned chameleon to me:


With a back-plate? Remember, all of these were drawn without cool dinosaur books and the internet.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Originally posted by: C3PX
I believe TM meant that if somebody is religious all their lives, and they die, they loose nothing. They cease to exist never having been none the wiser. If an atheist dies, and it turn out there is a god, then he does have a lot to loose.

Also judging by the last post zombie made, I am starting to become pretty sure he is pulling this stuff out of the clouds, and really has no idea what he is talking about. I have done a lot of study in Biblical archeology, there is nothing to claim the Jews were polytheistic. There were several times throughout history when many of them fell away from God and worshiped idols or false gods, but they never flip flopped on their own God. You have been terribly misinformed about this matter. And if you are claiming that the Old Testament depicts multiple gods, then I know you have no clue as to what you are saying. Maybe some scientist wrote a book about this or something, and since you whole heartedly trust all scientists so it has to be true. There are several names for God used in the Old Testament, this doesn't give any basis for claims that the Jews were polytheists, your whole thing about the translation trying to hind this fact is not true. Also you keep claiming that as you are bashing believers that you aren't really, you are just bashing flat-eathers. Okay, I really don't think there are any flat-earthers here. If there are, I too will take up a hammer and assist you in bashing them. Stop using this ridiculous excuse. I agree with you that it is undisputable that the earth is round, anybody today will agree with you, save for the same people who claim we have never gone to the moon.


I wonder if he has ever even opened the Word of God, that alone ever read a verse out of it. He is simply clueless about what he is talking about. The Word of God is infallible. Not wanting it to be is a different story.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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I just want to give thanks to Arnie.d, Duke's alter ego, and anyone else who maturely put their thoughts and questions into this thread. It really says a lot about your character and I appreciate it.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Just to clarify, I didn't use that logic as a reason why I believe in God personally. That's an entirely different thing. But it's just something for others to think about. I know there's a God, but if for some reason there wasn't one, what do I have to lose? I was a better person for believing in God anyhow, and affected those around me.

If on the other hand, you are an atheist and there does turn out to be heaven and hell... then boy, you screwed up.

Makes sense to me.

Another thing- I don't care how far you take the macro evolution theory. There has to have been a point where there was a jump from no life to life. It is scientically impossible to have happened by itself. People will sidestep this question and other questions, but how on Earth was life created? I've heard so many "the lightning struck the primordial sea and caused the amino acids to...." etc. etc. I just have to laugh now. I won't even get into what a stretch it is that humans, animals and plants all come from a common ancestor. This is not science, and it's far more improbable than the existence of God. Seriously.

"It seems to me if you felt your whole life you were being guided by God and then you find out he doesn't exist you seriously doubt yourself. Away is your purpose you thought you had."

OK, now I'm really confused.

1. If there isn't God (and afterlife), then how would you find out he doesn't exist? You'd be nothingness.
2. Nobody's ever going to prove that God doesn't exist. Because he does exist.
3. It's not a purpose I think I have, it's a purpose I know I have. I know that God exists, partly due to personal experience. And that's something you can't understand without living it.



"I don't believe in God but if for some reason I change my mind I loose everything? I think most Christians will say I've finally seen the light. So I'm not loosing anything. I'm gaining a whole lot!"

Life is a very quick thing. You could be killed tomorrow, or the next day, or next week. You have absolutely no clue. And if you "change your mind" just to cover yourself, and not because you believe, then you might not be gaining as much as you think.


(I should've known better than to post in a religion thread)

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Just to clarify, I didn't use that logic as a reason why I believe in God personally. That's an entirely different thing. But it's just something for others to think about. I know there's a God, but if for some reason there wasn't one, what do I have to lose? I was a better person for believing in God anyhow, and affected those around me.

If on the other hand, you are an atheist and there does turn out to be heaven and hell... then boy, you screwed up.
What you are saying is a person who does not believe in God can never be as good as a person who does, apparently. I'm sure I'm living a much better life than a lot of christians. And if there turns out to be a heaven and hell (which I don't believe) then I don't believe I would go to hell if I've lived a good life.

By the way, where does the concept of a hell come from. I don't know much about religion but I think the bible only very vaguely discribes something only once or twice that can be regarded as a hell.

Another thing- I don't care how far you take the macro evolution theory. There has to have been a point where there was a jump from no life to life. It is scientically impossible to have happened by itself. People will sidestep this question and other questions, but how on Earth was life created? I've heard so many "the lightning struck the primordial sea and caused the amino acids to...." etc. etc. I just have to laugh now. I won't even get into what a stretch it is that humans, animals and plants all come from a common ancestor. This is not science, and it's far more improbable than the existence of God. Seriously.
It's not scientifically impossible. And you laughing at the theory isn't very mature. I'm not laughing at your believe now am I? If it seems so strange to you then where does your God come from. You don't believe that life could have happened on itself but you do believe a God came out of nowhere and magically made everything.


1. If there isn't God (and afterlife), then how would you find out he doesn't exist? You'd be nothingness.
2. Nobody's ever going to prove that God doesn't exist. Because he does exist.
3. It's not a purpose I think I have, it's a purpose I know I have. I know that God exists, partly due to personal experience. And that's something you can't understand without living it.

I meant if I would find out before I die.
No you don't know he exists. You think you know he does. It's a purpose you think you know you have.
Number 2 is a very strange arguement... Besides I'm not trying to disprove. And you can't prove he does exist. So it's useless.

Life is a very quick thing. You could be killed tomorrow, or the next day, or next week. You have absolutely no clue. And if you "change your mind" just to cover yourself, and not because you believe, then you might not be gaining as much as you think.

Wow! I'm absolutely not changing my mind because of fear of hell or anything. It would certainly not be to cover myself. I meant if for some reason (an experience or revelation) I would change my mind. But I doubt it.


EDIT: I'm not going into any further discussion/arguments about trying to prove/disprove any theories. I liked the conversation with Coov but this conversation is getting out of hand. You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. That's that, probably nothing will change it.

I believe if you live a good life, being good for your fellow man and this planet you have nothing to fear no matter what. And I'm happy for all religious people and their faith, it probably gives them great comfort and a happy life.


Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Originally posted by: Arnie.d

What you are saying is a person who does not believe in God can never be as good as a person who does, apparently. I'm sure I'm living a much better life than a lot of christians. And if there turns out to be a heaven and hell (which I don't believe) then I don't believe I would go to hell if I've lived a good life.

By the way, where does the concept of a hell come from. I don't know much about religion but I think the bible only very vaguely discribes something only once or twice that can be regarded as a hell.


Nobody deserves to be in the presence of God in Heaven. I sure don't. Christianity has nothing to do with having the ability to be perfect, or earning the right to earn salvation through anything that we can do. We are all sinners in need of God's grace. Only through the cleansing blood of Christ can we achieve an Eternal Glory in Heaven with the Father. Don't look to Christianity for the answers, but Christ alone. Christians will always let you down, Christ won't.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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The fact that you live a better life than most Christians does not lower the Christian ideal of how one should behave. The faith of a lot of Christians is really weak. That's why it's really not enough to say you believe in God- you have to act on it, and act like Christ did.

"I meant if I would find out before I die."

Gotcha (but it won't happen)

"No you don't know he exists. You think you know he does. It's a purpose you think you know you have.
Number 2 is a very strange arguement... Besides I'm not trying to disprove. And you can't prove he does exist. So it's useless."


If this argument is to try to prove or disprove that God exists, it is of course pointless. We're never going to prove that one way or another. Again, if God could be scientifically proved, everyone would believe in Him.

In regard to my question about macro evolution...


"It's not scientifically impossible. And you laughing at the theory isn't very mature. I'm not laughing at your believe now am I? If it seems so strange to you then where does your God come from. You don't believe that life could have happened on itself but you do believe a God came out of nowhere and magically made everything."

Sorry, didn't mean to "laugh". But I still have not been told how it's not scientifically impossible, or how this is any more credible than the existence of God. Instead, you've pointed the finger at the belief in God. The point is that this isn't science vs. religion, because the theory of macro evolution is not science.

We're going in circles here! This type of argument goes nowhere....

Seriously, though, I respect your opinion and hope that someday you will realize the existence of God. If not, that's OK too. Either way, it's nice that you are a good person either way.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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There has actually been lengthy studies into the polytheistic practices of Israel. Where do you think all of the "golden idol" mythology comes from? Its meant to deter false idol worship. Even the very first commandments have to do with only worshipping one particular god (in this case, the god of whatever tribe was in power). If polytheism wasn't a problem then you wouldn't have to address the issue in such length. The polytheists origins of Israel are fairly well known in archeological circles; now of course they didn't remain polytheistic forever--by the time Christianity developed they were well known for their monotheism. My point was that initially, and in the seminal Biblical period (i.e. Exodus, etc.) they were a polytheistic people, and the fact that there are multiple names of God at different periods is one of the key indicators, because those names are also related to gods of Israels neighbours, which the Bible even explicitly states were polytheistic; religion didn't develop in a bubble--for instance when the Jews were brought into Babylon, they developed many of their most sacred rituals, such as circumcision; but circumcision isn't jewish--its Babylonian. The Jews just adopted it. There have been many studies and books written about the subject of the polytheitsic origins of Israel, but because it is contrary to the orthodox dogma it is usually ignored by most theists. Mark S. Smith has been one of the leading scholars on bringing this subject to the attention of the mainstream.

As to "what do atheists gain by rejecting god when they risk hell?"--that is an age-old argument known as Pascal's Wager. The basic refutation is "how do i know what is the right religion?" If i embrace Christianity then by the Muslim standard i am going to hell. If i embrace Islam then by the Christian standard i am going to hell. If i embrace Hinduism then by the Jewish standard i am going to hell. Theres no way out of this loop. But Pascal's Wager doesn't even need this refutation because the better one is simply "prove hell exists," or better yet "prove god exists," or better yet, "prove the specific god of INSERT RELIGION HERE exists."
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Wow! Something well thought out, not condescending, and understandable. Good job!

The Hebrew, especially those you are referring to in Exodus, have walked away from a God who had just proven Himself through all of these miraculous acts. Even then they constantly denied God because they wanted God to meet their own tangible needs. (I guess you can say that they did not see the big picture.)

Many were blinding themselves with what they expected God to be, rather than accepting who He really is. That carried on to their rejection of God's promise to come down and deliver them in the flesh. They are still looking for a Savior with a rod and a sword to come down and "open up a can" on their behalf. What they never expected is what they have rejected, that He came down as a humble servant to make a way for all who would come to accept Him.

This flesh can be very blinding. That is more evident than ever today. This world wants to mold and make God into what is convenient for us. That is where man is absolutely unreliable to follow, hence the failure of religion. You replace what man wants with what God wants you will see a completely different picture.

There is something that we all must agree on. There is one Truth, one reality. We may not agree on what that may be, but with so many varieties being taught... ONLY ONE group is right. When we inevitably die, some are not going to be re-incarnated, some just turn into worm food, others at the feet of Jesus for eternity, and the others with 40 virgin wives... there is only ONE reality. No matter how much we really, really, really want our reality to be the one, it will not change what the truth really is. We can kid ourselves all we want, but that is simply the case. Who is right? We all think we are. Who wants to be wrong? Nobody, of course.

I am prepared to meet my fate when my life ends. I do not fear death, but I also do not deserve life-everlasting.

One last note... you all mean something and your life is precious to God. We are not mere accidents in an inevitable evolutionary dead end. I really pray someone out there is out there getting something from all of this. What more can a Savior do to get your attention. Amen.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Calling the Hebrews at any point in time polytheistic strongly suggests a complete misunderstanding of Judaism, the Bible (or more specifically, the Torah), and the Hebrew language. They were merely different titles for the same Omnipotent God, each one illustrating another aspect of his character.
MTFBWY. Always.

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