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Originally posted by: zombie84
Originally posted by: theredbaron

I didn't say that the burden of proof lies with you and other atheists to disprove God's existence, I said that the burden of proof lies with you to prove that all religions are bullshit. There is a difference. And you really haven't produced any hard evidence. It is hearsay, because all you've mentioned is basically 'a bunch of guys at some conference sometime all of a sudden realised that religion was bullshit'. That is really all you've said - no names, no sources, no quotes, no comparison of texts to suggest how they may have unanimously come to this conclusion. The definition of that, my friend, is hearsay.

Well, with regards to the Jesus Seminar you can verify and research that yourself since i have included a reputable, verifiable and highly reliable source that is well known to serious scholars of the New Testament.

The Jesus Seminar was a group of Bible scholars that went through all the quotes, sayings, and teachings of Jesus and decided which ones had more documentation than others. They voted on the authenticity of particular words or deeds of Jesus, based on degrees, using coloured beads. It wasn't a quest to disclaim or disprove Jesus' existence or even to discredit his teachings - it was a quest for the historical Jesus. The Seminar didn't disprove Jesus' existence at all - if anything it probably bolstered it - and you can take that one to the bank.

As for "all religion is BS"--the human origins of every religion are clear and well known by scholars. Everyone on the planet accepts that the Greek religions and the Nordic religions and the Egyptian religions and the Roman religions, for example, are all bullshit--simply because they are seen as "unbelievable" and "impossible" "myths" of ancient lore that were made up to explain natural phenomena not understood by primitive man. But what is the difference between these and the more "modern" religions like Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism? Not much. Only the social entrenchment, much like how a Roman living in AD 50 would have accepted the cult of Jupiter as a valid establishment in the same way that an American accepts the cult of Christ as a valid establishment.

To say that all of these religions are 'not much different' from each other is ignorant and ridiculous. I thought you'd studied religion in some capacity. If they were so much the same, you could take a crash course in one and become an expert on them all. Looking at the Greek tragedies and comedies, it is pretty clear to me that a large cohort of the Greek people didn't even take their gods seriously, resigning them to flaws, foibles and human-like drama atop Mt. Olympus. They were the Days of Our Lives of Ancient times.

The supposedly unique thing that seperates modern religions from "primitive" "false" ones like the Roman or Greek ones is the illusion of a historical basis. Firstly this is not unique--in attempts to rectify ones religion as the "true" one, many have fabricated evidence and claimed historical places as a means of grounding their myths in reality. Heracles' and Mithras birthplace was claimed to be found by the Greeks and Persians, and all sorts of similarly wild means have been used ad nauseum by various cults and sects of religions. But the fact is that every supposed historical reference to a deity of modern religions has been uncovered to be a forgery. In the case of Jesus there are a handful of early first century references that have been upheld by some but that have been proven through historical research to be false. Not one single actual reference remains. The most recent one was the "James brother of Jesus" bone box that was discovered to be a fraud.
But getting back to my initial point about people dismissing Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Persian and other ancient myths as "myths" but then inexplicitly accepting the exact same things in modern "religion"--if Roman and Egyptian mythology is accepted as "false", for instance, then the lineage of modern religions in origin to these "false" myths would therefore render them false as well. Because when you actual study it that is what happens--one religions flows into and borrows from the next. In fact, there is a term invented just for this occurance--syncretism. Ideas and beliefs don't just pop up overnight, the way they would had some revolutionary deity come down to earth from heaven and astounded the world--the develop slowly and naturally as part of the socio-political system of their birth. In the case of Christianity, it was mainly borne from the Platonic "Son of Man" cults that were overtaking the middle east and parts of Rome in the first century in response to the chaos uprooting the world at the time. These eventually gave rise to Paul and his Messianic Son of Man, whom was later called the Christ, which then melded with the savior passions of the Mystery Cults that Rome was infused with. These types of beliefs were not unique or new--they were the prominent philosophies of the region. This confounded early scholars who began with the assumption that Christ was a real person--they discovered that certain Christ cults were springing up randomly in different regions with wildly different belief systems. It was because those followers were simply adopting the philosophy of the Platonic Christ cults on their own, and this was a common occurance to simply adopt religious belief in those times because polytheism allowed multiple gods to co-exist together. It wasn't until the second and third centuries that these beliefs became organized together after an ananymous author combined them and committed them to paper in the form of a document called the Gospel of Mark, which then was copied and transformed by various other authors and which formed the Christian Church; there were so many different local variations on the Christ myth that a council was created to select which ones were to be considered part of the canononical mythology (the Council of Nicaea) after the Church gained the authority fo Rome due to Emperor Constantine's conversion. The critics of Christianity were then silenced by death--because everyone from the Mystery Cults knew that Christianity was just another Mystery Cult, but Christians who by that point were being born over a hundred years after the supposed death of their savior, began believing that their myth was historical because the Gospel of Mark document placed the Son of Man/Sacred King passion in an earthly setting. This is why most forged historical records stem from this period.

Islam of course is an offshoot of Christianity in the same way that Christianity is an offshoot of the Platonic Christ cult and Mystery Cults. Buddhism and Hinduism are even more ancient and basically come from the same source that ancient Egyptian mythology did--in fact, many still debate as to whether Hinduism fed into Egyptian myth or Egyptian myth fed into Hinduism. Likely it was a back and forth process. But if the myths of Osiris and Horus and Ra are considered "false" and "mythical"--wouldn't that make Hinduism and Buddhism the same. What do we have that disproves the glorious Osiris or ominipotent all seeing eye of Ra as false deities? None, really, if you are looking for some kind of objective proof, some type of "confessional" by an Egyptian priest; but a search for such a document would be futile because that isn't even the nature with which mythology is created.

I do not believe that universality between religions and religious concepts diminish their authenticity in any way. More often than not, it bolsters these teachings and ideas as universal truths.


Universiality between philosophy, yes--most humans have a basic underlying philosophy and way of life that is similar, and many disconnected civilizations arrive at similar conclusions. Hell, the Ten Commandments is identical to the Code of Hammurabi, a secular code of conduct from many thousands of years prior that had such universal tenates as "thous shalt not kill", etc.

At the end of the day, we're all placing our faith in something.


Bingo. Religion is about faith. Most religions ask of their followers not to question or look for proof of god but simply to accept that he exists. People nowadays are at the intelligence level to break away from mythology as a literal explanation for natural phenomena but cant quite break the fundamental emotional need and social taboo of declaring atheism--this is what has led to a bizarre rash of religious-minded folks who attempt to use science to their end. Its referred to as pseudo-science because it takes scientific principles and twists them into complete misrepresentations that give the layman simple answers to complex questions. Why learn about the big bang, or about the historical and social underpinings about ancient rome when it is easier to just say a magical being is responsible for everything. Its interesting to watch this crossroads where people have enormous scientific and rational understanding but can't quite let go of supernatural or magical belief. Ancient Greeks believed that even their thoughts and emotions were given to them by the gods--if they fell in love it was cupid inspiring them to feel such way, or if they got an idea it was muse giving them it. Now we understanding pheromones and the biochemical makeup of the brain and know that it is not due to magical intervention of supposed deities. But such a believer in things could make an argument: what proof do we have that it isn't Cupid or some muse making us feel such things? Just as modern man who can't quite grasp the concept of, say, a Big Bang or mythological sycretism, will ask similar questions.

The Big Bang is our best understanding of the universe. What occured before the Big Bang? Well, technically time did not exist so there was no "before". Now the man who cannot let go of the supernatural belief will try to meld the two concepts, stating that god existed before hand in the eternal realm and started the big band. But why is such a belief necessary? The universe functions in a self contained way that does not require any supernatural intervention, only further scientific study to arrive at more specific theories.

Furthermore, there is also now a rash of people who share the same uncomfortableness with atheism who have tried to amalgomate their beliefs by refusing to answer the question of "does god exist?" Because the truth is that we don't know. And so now you have people who call themselves agnostics who say "i dont know if god exists." But these people are just atheists without the conviction to declare themselves as such. The real Gnostics were an esoteric sect, of which Christianity owes much of its philosophy to--the word meant "to know." Thomas Huxley coined the modern philosophical meaning of it, meaning basically "to not know." In other words, a lack of belief: atheism. If you do not know if god exists, then you do not believe that he DOES exist, and you are an atheist. You can be an agostic theist: "i believe knowledge of god is impossible to know but I BELIEVE ANYWAY," and agnostic atheists, which is almost exclusively what modern "agonstics" are: "I believe knowledge of god is impossible, therefor i cannot proclaim belief." Because that is the only rational conclusion you can draw--god has not been proven. Therefore, until it is done, one cannot say that you positively believe in god, or at least a specific god. If you do believe, it must be on faith. This question also leads to the inevitable conclusion that would be painfully obvious if it were any other subject: perhaps the lack of proof indicates that the very question asked was futile. Why ask "does god exist" if there is no reason to? The answer is that its human nature. Humans ask this question without valid reason because they WANT to believe, which is where faith comes from: faith in the impossible and absurd, in the face of complete lack of proof. Only a fundamental emotional human need for some kind of comfort could produce a blind conviction to an impossible and unlikely concept such as this.


***I'll go through the rest later, but for now, I need to eat dinner.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Originally posted by: C3PX
You have also spent a fair deal of words talking non sense about pink elephants and little men named Fred. Somebody here said it takes as much faith not to believe in a god as it does to believe in a god.

There's nothing faith-based about science, if we are to take that word in the same meaning as it applies to theistic belief. Science is the accumlation of observable and measureable knowledge about the natural world. It is true that our current scientific paradigms have holes in it, and also that science has been proved inaccurate--these historical inaccuraces are actually what make the scientific process so exact. Theories are refined and updated by new discoveries and knowledge. No one said that our current understanding of the universe is the end-all paradigm of knowledge, because I'm sure in 300 years it will be quite a bit more advanced based on the discoveries to be made in that time. The important part about science is that it is the most accurate description of reality that we can currently make based on what we know.

We have faith in God, but you have faith in science.

There's no faith in science, and the two principles (science and religion) are in such a different nature that to compare them in this way demonstrates a misunderstanding of science. Science is merely the paradigm of knowledge about reality. Its observations about reality and nature. Its not the same as having faith in god, which is why there are many people who are both highly scientific but also highly religious.

But science is so full of theories. Everything about the existence of the earth and how it came into being, it is all just theory.

This is also a misunderstanding of science. Scientific Theory is different from regular theory. If i say "i believe that Elvis was abducted by aliens," that is a theory, not a fact. But Scientific Theories are both theories and fact because when we use the word "theory" here we are not talking about speculatory things, we are talking about a paradigm of knowledge. The theory of evolution is both a theory and a fact in the same way that the theory of gravity is both a theory and a fact. A series of facts and knowlege has been collected to such an extent that we can assert that a hypothesis is correct and that it will stay correct. For instance, we have enough knowledge about gravity that we can assert that it behaves according to certain principles, and we also have enough knowledge to assert that there is no reason to believe those principles will change. The theory of evolution follows similarly, although religious people use the ignorance of the layman to say "hey, its a THEORY, therefore it is unproven!!1" which is totally incorrect.

You say there is no such thing as a god until it is proven otherwise, and since there is no way to prove there is a god then he doesn't exist. Just as the pink elephant in your basement doesn't exist until it is proven otherwise, which I think is a pretty lame analogy but I think you were trying to make a point that belief in a god is just as lame.

No it is a perfectly apt analogy and my point was not that its lame. My point was that the pink elephant has the same qualities and characteristics as a supposed god would have: it is invisible, cannot be touched, heard, communicated with or detected in any clear way. So because it has all of these qualities which would make me completely ignorant to its presence, there is the possibility that it does indeed exist, perhaps hovering undetected over my shoulder as i type this. This is the exact same characteristics as a supposed god would have. So what reason is there to believe that the undetectable elephant indeed exists? Its very logical that it could indeed exist, since i would not be aware of its presence. But why would i believe that such a thing is there if i have no reason to?

I think the existence of the earth is enough evidence to give the hint that there could possibly be an intelligent being who created the universe. Everything in the universe fits so perfectly together.

That is not at all reason for a "design". In fact, this doesn't even fit some peoples definition of god since some don't see him as a designer. Oragnisms are structured to behave in such a way as to be self-improving in order to adapt in environment, right down to the cellular level, and its called evolution, something many people seem to think is contrary to god. As you can see, however, people's opinions of god are very personalized--how can we even begin to claim what god is or isn't when everyone seems to be merely projecting their own subjective preferences into their idealised version of a benevolent deity?

You see religion as a reason to hate and a reason to explain thing we don't understand. But even with science, what you would call truth and facts, get a room full of 50 scientists, even fifty prominent ones who have contributed to texts books and journals, and let's get them to agree on the origin of the universe.


Not quite, there are certain things that most can agree on, and there isn't an unlimited number of probabilities floating around. In fact, we basically have the major fundamentals figured out: everything started out as a singularity, exploded in the big bang, expanded outward, cooled down, formed gases and elements, and eventually planetoids and organisms. The only areas where we don't have a great deal of knowledge is to where the singularity came from, but saying "its magic" (i.e. god) is not an acceptable explanation to fill in an unknown value.

You said,
"Ignorance to such basic factual knowledge is bad for the progress of society."

Close mindedness is also ignorance. My grandfather believed that scientist made up dinosaurs to prove the theory of evolution. That is ignorance. I agree a lot of religious people today (and in the past like my grandfather) stick their fingers in their ears and yell when you give them scientific fact that they feel threatens there faith.


I was actually making that statement in regards to flat-earth people.

You will find that if you read the Bible you will be hard pressed to find scientific inaccuracies or historical inaccuracies. If your idea that belief in God is sheer ignorance, then no educated person would be a theist.


This leads me to believe that you either know nothing about history or science or haven't ever cracked open a Bible. The Bible is a mythological text thousands of years old and is filled with the same inaccuracies as you would expect to find in such a text, and it is no different than say, The Illiad. It proposes the world as flat, it describes the heavenly bodies as deities, asserts that the sky is a series of successivly more supernatural planes (which is why in Medieval times this was thought to be the case), that the world is only five thousand years old, that the universe was created in a few days, that King Herod slaughtered all the boys in Bethlehem, and many, many, many hundreds and probably thousands of similar such absurdities and fabrications of varying degrees.

We would have all the upper-class educated people being atheists, and all the trailer park, low class, uneducated people dumbly believing in God. This however, is not the case at all.


Actually, this is partially statistically true. Most religious people--and the highestly religious people--come from rural areas, areas which are not at all as eductaed as the urban areas. By the same token, hardly any atheists come from rural areas--how many atheists have you met in rural small towns? Not very many. Conversely, most atheists can be found in metropolitan areas, areas which are more educated than the rural counterparts. Thus, in areas where education is the lowest, supernatural belief is the highest. There have actually been studies done on this, although i am admit i cannot at the moment recall the official name of the inquiry. But basically, the findings was that as education increases, belief in the supernatural decreases. That, to me, seems like a logical following. Obviously though it doesn't apply to everyone--there are tons of brilliant people who are also highly religious. But, preportionally, atheists are much more intelligent than religious people. Theres also a study done recently that suggests that religious people may be happier than non-religious people; i guess that confirms the old expression that ignorance is bliss.

Anyway, I am not really wishing to make a fight, it is just annoying how you openly insult people who believe in God. You believe what you will, I have plenty of atheist friends and I wouldn't hold it against you. But you really shouldn't belittle people just because they believe differently than you. It is good to see things from more than one point of view, and it can be a great insight to have friends with an extremely different world view than yourself. It helps you understand the world better. Also, don't worry, progress of society won't be impeded by religious people. It has not been and it won't be. Also I am willing to bet that religious people have made as many contributions to society over the history of the world as atheists have been. I would love to see an example of them holding back the progression of society today.


I am not trying to belittle anyone, but when someone makes such stupid arguments as "if there was no god then religion would be simple" then i will argue them down. I also am mostly presenting verifiable historical and scientific fact and have almost exclsuively strayed from personal opionion, so if you have a problem then it is likely not with me but with reality. Religion tends to completely collapse under factual and logical scrutiny. And that goes back to what i was saying--belief in the supernatural must come from faith, because theres not much factual basis for it. People believe because they want to believe. I am reminded of that UFO poster that was made famous on the X-Files--"I WANT TO BELIEVE." There really isn't any evidence to believe in alien abductions, but people are attached to the idea of such things occuring--they believe in spite of the glaring lack of evidence because they have an emotional need to.

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Originally posted by: theredbaron

The Jesus Seminar was a group of Bible scholars that went through all the quotes, sayings, and teachings of Jesus and decided which ones had more documentation than others. They voted on the authenticity of particular words or deeds of Jesus, based on degrees, using coloured beads. It wasn't a quest to disclaim or disprove Jesus' existence or even to discredit his teachings - it was a quest for the historical Jesus. The Seminar didn't disprove Jesus' existence at all - if anything it probably bolstered it - and you can take that one to the bank.


I never said it was anything different.

My point was that in that quest to find the historical Jesus, pretty much the entire New Testament wilted away as fabricated. What they were left with when the seminar was settled was that hardly any of the acts and sayings attributed to Jesus were actually done by him, if we are to believe he existed at all. That was my point.


To say that all of these religions are 'not much different' from each other is ignorant and ridiculous. I thought you'd studied religion in some capacity. If they were so much the same, you could take a crash course in one and become an expert on them all. Looking at the Greek tragedies and comedies, it is pretty clear to me that a large cohort of the Greek people didn't even take their gods seriously, resigning them to flaws, foibles and human-like drama atop Mt. Olympus. They were the Days of Our Lives of Ancient times.


Yes, i am aware of that. You are misunderstanding my point again. I know that Hinduism is nothing at all in its myths as Christianity. The point i was making was that they are both filled with equal absurdities, but for some strange reason people dismiss the religious of the Egptians as false but accept the religion of Islam or Christianity as valid. My point was, what is the difference between the cult of Osiris and the cult of Christ in regards to realism, evidence or probability? My answer was, not much. People write off ancient religion as myth but accept modern myth as religion. They are the same thing.
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Originally posted by: Arnie.dPersonally, I don't believe in (any) God. I don't think there's "life" after death.
By the way, I'm not trying to attack you in any way. I'm just trying to understand.

I appreciate your maturity in your curiosity. Most are so adamant in proving themselves right that they choose to attack and belittle others to feel superior. I take no offense to your questions and look forward to sharing the answers with you and any others that choose to try to understand the Christianity of the Bible, rather than a simple religion that it seems to be today.

Coov, you speak of "the reality of God's inevitability".
Why do you think God is inevitable?

According to one of your messages you weren't religious all (most of) your life. What changed this?

The reality of God is inevitable... meaning I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt there is a God, and indifference or simply not wanting that to be the case does not change that fact. That seems a bit "in your face," but I really do not know any other way of explaining that. I will get into why I am doubtless about Gods existence in just a bit.

I grew up not really caring about if their was a God or not. It did not effect me one bit because I did not realize it should. I grew up Roman Catholic and did not take anything seriously, nor was really taught to. Memorizing prayers, hearing stories about Christ... none of it really mattered because the importance of it all was very subdued through rituals and long boring stories. No matter what kind of Church anyone goes to there is one thing that should be emphasized. Why did Christ have to die on the cross, and why did He have to rise again?

The law of the Old Testament points to the impossibility of us being absolutely perfect. To be able to stand in the presence of God we must be absolutely blameless. Yearly sacrifices were used to represent the spill of blood to take the place of imperfections.... but Christ came for the final sacrifice and through Him the wage of sin was payed. Through our acceptance of Him we are cleansed of all impurity through repentance. He defeated death so we do not have to face it.

Also you say "if I did not already know the Truth".
How do you know the truth? (Or, why do you think you know the truth?)


There is a huge aspect of what is missing in Christians today: Change! I much later found myself in a Baptist Church eight years ago hearing all of the things I never heard about. After salvation through Christ, He literally takes up residence in you through the Holy Spirit of God. If ever heard myself say that nine years ago I would point and laugh at myself saying how stupid that sounds.

Only through the Holy Spirit can someone find salvation. It is nothing I can talk anyone into, but the conviction of the Holy Spirit leads you to that decision. At that point I was given new eyes. I use the analogy "new eyes" to say that it is not an automatic change, but a learning process. The more I used these new eyes that God has given me, the more enlightened I became. The more I prayed and studied Gods Word, the more my eyes opened.

With Christ such an awesome force in someone's life change is inevitable. The Holy Spirit guides believers. We still have free will, but Christ will nudge you as you let Him guide you. As you wonder from Him, He will chasten you as a father to his child. He will never leave you.

And, "I have since opened my eyes to the Truth and Majesty of Christ".
How do you open your eyes? What do you experience?


Also after salvation I felt complete. I always felt like there are something missing in my life. I always felt like there was a hole that needed to be filled, and no matter what I did to try to fill it, it would always remain empty. I had found an unspeakable Joy that I had never heard about. When I tend to walk away from God, I walk away from that Joy. When I walk with God, my cup runs over. Just something so simple really makes Christ so very real... Just like you can not see the wind, but you can see the effects of it. I am probably doing a miserable job at trying to help you understand.

These new eyes have made God tangible in my life in ways I really can not explain. It is not emotional, it is nothing physical... just everything just makes so much more since with life. It is like every single question that I never knew to ask was answered. Sure there are several unanswered questions, but I am satisfied.

Thanks for the questions!




Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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I finally got around to reading... LOL!

Originally posted by: zombie84
“and the highestly religious people--come from rural areas, areas which are not at all as eductaed as the urban areas.”

“Conversely, most atheists can be found in metropolitan areas, areas which are more educated than the rural counterparts. Thus, in areas where education is the lowest, supernatural belief is the highest.”

“But, preportionally, atheists are much more intelligent than religious people.”

“Religion tends to completely collapse under factual and logical scrutiny.”

“I am not trying to belittle anyone”

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Originally posted by: Coov
I finally got around to reading... LOL!

Originally posted by: zombie84
“and the highestly religious people--come from rural areas, areas which are not at all as eductaed as the urban areas.”

“Conversely, most atheists can be found in metropolitan areas, areas which are more educated than the rural counterparts. Thus, in areas where education is the lowest, supernatural belief is the highest.”

“But, preportionally, atheists are much more intelligent than religious people.”

“Religion tends to completely collapse under factual and logical scrutiny.”

“I am not trying to belittle anyone”


I have a real problem when you say that Christians are a bunch of superstitious, uneducated people, and that everyone who 'knows better' are atheists.

As for the statements that science, specificially evolution, is superior than faith in God because science can 'prove' evolution, the big bang, etc. I say that it takes just as much faith if not more to believe in evolution than creation. Ultimately, there is no real proof of the big bang, or no explination whatsoever in where the stuff came from that exploded in the bang. Its just accepted that since it doesn't involve God, it must be what 'really happened'.
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Originally posted by: Number20
Originally posted by: Coov
I finally got around to reading... LOL!

Originally posted by: zombie84
“and the highestly religious people--come from rural areas, areas which are not at all as eductaed as the urban areas.”

“Conversely, most atheists can be found in metropolitan areas, areas which are more educated than the rural counterparts. Thus, in areas where education is the lowest, supernatural belief is the highest.”

“But, preportionally, atheists are much more intelligent than religious people.”

“Religion tends to completely collapse under factual and logical scrutiny.”

“I am not trying to belittle anyone”


I have a real problem when you say that Christians are a bunch of superstitious, uneducated people, and that everyone who 'knows better' are atheists.

As for the statements that science, specificially evolution, is superior than faith in God because science can 'prove' evolution, the big bang, etc. I say that it takes just as much faith if not more to believe in evolution than creation. Ultimately, there is no real proof of the big bang, or no explination whatsoever in where the stuff came from that exploded in the bang. Its just accepted that since it doesn't involve God, it must be what 'really happened'.



I never said all religious people are idiotic simpletons and that all atheists are geniuses. I made an explicit point that many theists are also quite brilliant and intelligent people. But statistically, atheists are smarter. Thats not my personal opinion, just remember. Most atheists are located in metropolitan areas, which are the same areas where most doctors, lawyers and scientists can be found, and where most universities are located; the majority of religious people come from rural areas, which are statistically very uneducated by comparison. Thus, as education increases, theistic belief decreases. Once again, this is not a personal opinion of mine. Your problems are not with me but with reality.

As for "superior scientific faith"--i never said such a thing; you are putting words in my mouth or completely misunderstanding me because i actually said the complete opposite. Science does not involve faith, if we are to take it in the same meaning as it applies to theistic belief--belief in the impossible, absurd, improbable and unproven without a shred of evidence. That is faith, and it is the antithesis of the scientific model, for anyone here who actually knows it, which, i am guessing, is not many or else stupid statements like this would not being made. And yes, there is an abundance of proof for the Big Bang, etc. People didn't just pull that out of their ass. Maybe a little research would enlighten you.

As for the Big Bang--science proposes no solid answer to "what came before." The most accurate answer actually is "there was no before," since time did not come into existence before the universe did, because time is simply an aspect of the material reality of the universe. But, to put it in simplistic terms, science says "we don't know what was 'before' the big bang." Nothing about that is "snobby" and "superior" and "arrogant" as some defensive religious people accuse--we don't know and have such little frame of reference as to where the singularity of the big bang originated from that it is impossible to even begin to theorize beyond wild speculation. The religious man of course says "i know beyond a shadow of a doubt," which is pretty absurd if you ask me.

Coov-- I am glad that religion has given you such wonderful meaning and experience in your life. I think this is the main draw that keeps people coming back to religion, and this actually demonstrates the fundamental reason for its continued existance--emotional experience. Because that is what you are describing. You are attached to the emotional experience that christianity has given you. But what of the scientific or historical points are raised? Not once have you even acknowledged them, let alone debated them. Aren't you interested in the historical origins of your faith from a non-dogmatic, objective point of view? Apparently not, it seems. But that itself is an important point. There is so much evidence to show how religion came to be--in fact for many, people don't even need historical analysis, simply logical, rational reasoning; this is why people don't believe in Zeus or Osiris or Mithras anymore. But many people don't apply these same basic critical reasoning skills to their own faith, because they simply don't want to, and its because of emotional attachment. Religion can bring with it emotional experiences, and it creates a genuine feeling of community and completeness. What people don't realise is that you don't need "religion" in the traditional sense of the word, to do this. Music concerts and movie theater experiences produce about the same effect--large masses of people gathered for a shared experience and whom undergo both intellectual and emotional stimulation together. Its why The Beatles and Star Wars is considered "like a religion" to some people--because they both pretty much are. As far as i am concerned, Cinema is the heir to traditional mythological religion. But anyway, i was saying that its great that people have had their lives improved through religious experience. But please, at least realise that its simply emotional stimulation and not objective truth. People believe in god through faith because they have to--if god could be shown to exist in an objective way then people wouldn't need to have faith.
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I recognize the portion of your last post directed to me an actual effort toward maturity. As much as I appreciate that, it also shows that you have not made any attempt to hear what I am trying to say. I do not want to debate anyone who does not even try to understand where I am coming from and the whole point of my posts. As much as you are saying that you are not trying to belittle and demean anyone, you are doing just that. Your posts have been very narrow minded, arrogant, opinionated, disrespectful, and rude. Why would I want to debate someone like that?

Science is faith based as much as you do not want to believe it is. I do not understand why that bothers you so much. No one was there when creation happened and how it happened. That is why science can only call it a theory. There is a huge leap between theory and fact (hence the need for scientific method)... The one thing that can bind what you believe and an un-provable reality is called faith and nothing else.

...and as far as what I have in Christ being labeled as nothing more than an emotional experience, it is not (as I had said in the post explaining it all). There was a span of 25 years when I was not a follower of Christ. I think I can tell the difference between being entertained at the movies, and having a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior. The two are not even comparable on any level. I really don’t expect you to understand because you do not want to. I have been where you are, minus the arrogant insensitivity, so I can say I have seen both sides. I have also read the Perfect Word of God and have seen life through the eyes of the Holy Spirit. I praise God for the enlightenment that Christ has given me... and I pray that you open your heart for just a glimpse of what I call reality.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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Coov is right, Zombie. You are saying you aren't insulting Christians, but then you turn around and do so. You continue to say that all Christians are rural, uneducated and stupid, and the urban, intelligent, educated people are all athests because they are smart and 'know better'. This seems to be one of your major arguments against Christianity and God.
Once again, as for evolution and the big bang, I still say there is just as much faith to believe that as there is for one to beleive in creation. I didn't say that science just made it up, but if you completely understanding of the orgins of the universe and have complete and irrefutable proof for evolution, then you have made the greatest discovery of all time. There is no 'proof'. only clues and hints. This is where faith comes in. You have faith that what someone else said about evolution is true. And you have faith that what science currently believes is true, even though in the end, it is just conjecture based on evidence that could be interpreted many different ways.
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The Theory of Gravity in no way ratifies the Theory of Evolution as fact. Gravity as a scientific theory does not make it fact, but gravity as a scientific law does. It is the Law of Gravity. Evolution, on the other hand, is not a law, but a theory, and really is only a paradigm towards which evolutionist scientists contribute.

When we talk about 'Evolution', we should really be more specific. This "accept it all or not at all" philosophy really gets on my nerves. Who doesn't believe in micro-evolution? Nobody, that's who. It's macro-evolution that makes no sense and is riddled with holes. Dominant and recessive genes, of course people and animals will get smaller/shorter over time, etc. But there is no concrete evidence of evolution from species to species.
MTFBWY. Always.

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That's right, redbaron. So many evolutionists think that micro-evolution is proof of cosmic, chemical, stellar, organic and macro-evolution. What it all comes down to is that either the universe and everything in it was either chaotically formed from nothing, or their is a master designer. The first thing we learn in science is that matter can not be created or destroyed. So where does the matter come from? All of the periodic table was evolved from hydrogen and helium? Has a species ever reproduced anything of a different species? Should their not be a span of linking organisms between an ameba and human? etc...

Logically it seems possible that we came from monkeys because of just a few similarities, yada, yada, yada... but an earth derived from a cosmic burp billions of years ago, chaotically improved (as if chaos has ever improved anything, ever), and we as humans are just an evolution of sea slime that eventually and accidentally developed the ability to think, see, hear, reproduce (not to mention the complexity and structure of each of those)... also not mentioning our environment accidently manipulated to support such an exact life dependancy for it...

The way I see it, evolutionists have their own sort of religion in all this. Somehow their belief system can be called science... and ours is faith based? I really don't see that big of a difference... they just have to reach further, that's all. No wonder so many think that it takes tons more faith to believe in all of this stuff than simply understanding that there IS a Master Creator.

Christ is a loving God! There is nothing to be afraid of in Him. He gave you every breath. He died for you because He loves you and He wants you to become a part of His family. He wants a relationship with you, not a religion. He pulled Paul from a life of persecuting and killing Christians, into a man of God who could teach us all haw much God really loves us. If He can do that, He can cleanse your sins and take you in. It is not about religion, it is about Love! Amen.

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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These new eyes have made God tangible in my life in ways I really can not explain. It is not emotional, it is nothing physical... just everything just makes so much more since with life. It is like every single question that I never knew to ask was answered. Sure there are several unanswered questions, but I am satisfied.

Thanks for the questions!


Thank you for trying to explain, Coov. So it's not emotional of physical. Is it comparable to a very strong feeling somewhere inbetween? Because then I can probably understand a bit what it is like.


I have 2 more questions, I hope you don't mind.

Do you believe dinosaurs ever roamed this planet?

How old do you think the earth is?








Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Originally posted by: Arnie.d


Thank you for trying to explain, Coov. So it's not emotional of physical. Is it comparable to a very strong feeling somewhere inbetween? Because then I can probably understand a bit what it is like.


I have 2 more questions, I hope you don't mind.

Do you believe dinosaurs ever roamed this planet?

How old do you think the earth is?



As far as the dinosaur question, I hope not too many people believe that they didn't exist. I for one whole heartedly believe in their existence, but I believe they roamed the planet at the same time as man. Why is it so impossible for God to have made them. The idea that they would have killed off all people doesn't go over so well, since there are many other predators that are potentially hazardous to man. Also I believe there is the possibility that dinosaurs may have been responsible for the myth of "dragons." Also if we read in the last chapters of the book of Job, there are two beasts that are mentioned and described, neither of them sounds like any beast still living today. Also, if we can believe that God made the first people and animals full grown and sexually mature and fruit trees mature enough to bear fruit, why should it be so hard to believe he could make complex mountian, canyons and rock formations that would take millenia to form?

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
Thank you for trying to explain, Coov. So it's not emotional of physical. Is it comparable to a very strong feeling somewhere inbetween? Because then I can probably understand a bit what it is like.

I guess the best way to describe it would be an enlightenment. Kind of like the difference between knowing an answer, and actually understanding the answer.

What makes it so hard to explain is that to be able to actually grasp it, you have to take that step of faith to get there. We are blinded by what the world has to offer, but only Christ can open them to really see. I don't want to sound like I am better than anyone else saying all of that because it is all from Christ and I am nothing without Him. Sounds weird, I know... but it is the Truth.

The problem is there are so many Christians that are very confused and look for an emotional experience, a miracle, or something to God to prove He is real... we are to live by faith, not by Christ having to prove Himself to anyone. Like I said before, it is a process... the more you give yourself to what Christ really wants in your life, the more enlightened you become to His Majesty.


I have a few more questions I hope you don't mind.

Absolutely not! I love this!

Do you believe in evolution at some level (not the big jump from slimy creature to human, but smaller changes)?


I guess I did not spell this out in my previous post, but... Micro-evolution is undebatable. You can prove that form of evolution because it has been witnessed, and even tampered with. You can take a wolf, coyote, and a chiwawa and link them to a distinct line of ancestry. Does that mean that even an amphibian can somehow be linked to a human? Nothing has proven it is even remotely possible... minus that there is no other explanation besides the reality of God.

How old do you think the earth is?


Great question... but this will obviously drag in tons of more questions.

I believe that the earth is approximately 6-7-maybe 8 thousand years old. Yeah, I know... sounds absolutely ridiculous. I don't care. I have heard so much evidence that points that as being the case that to me it is undeniable. This rubs a lot of other Christians the wrong way as well. I believe that God created the world in literally 6 days. All I can say is that we will find out eventually. It really does not matter too much.

Do you believe dinosaurs ever roamed this planet?


Absolutely. I also believe that dinosaurs and man roamed earth together (there are even fossils to prove it). The environment has changed immensely since it was created. This new environment can not sustain the life that was so reliant on the way it was. The oxygen levels were much higher and compact, creating an ideal environment for plants and animals... as the earth expands and ages the conditions change. If you were to rely on the previous conditions, you would not be able to live in the new one (or it would be at least more difficult to do so).

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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I believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth pretty much as most scientists say they did, millions of years before people. Personally I believe that the 'days' in Genesis aren't 24 hr periods, but periods of time. Some will take this to the extent to say that it is still the seventh day, but I'm not sure about that one. Remember that the sun wasn't created until the second or third day of creation(can't remember exactly and don't have my bible handy). Dinosaurs, early mammals such as mammoths and saber-toothed tigers were created, lived, and died out before God created people on the sixth day. Just my personal beliefs, your thoughts may vary. LOL
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I also believe that dinosaurs and man roamed earth together (there are even fossils to prove it).

Hey, that's not fair. I should be the one using fossils to backup my story
I'm not sure what you mean though. Fossils prove dinosaurs AND man roamed the earth together? That's not tru.

Since I'm not religious it's obvious I don't believe man and dinosaurs roamed the earth together. But one simple fact backs this up. There are many many cave drawings of the animals man encountered; sabertooth tigers, mammoths, bears, etc (basically all big animals we know that lived in the same time period from fossil have been drawn). Now there is not a single drawing of a dinosaur. If a person encounters all those animals and draws them it would be very very unlikely when he faces a t-rex and says, nah, I'm not going to draw that one.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
I also believe that dinosaurs and man roamed earth together (there are even fossils to prove it).

But one simple fact backs this up. There are many many cave drawings of the animals man encountered; sabertooth tigers, mammoths, bears, etc (basically all big animals we know that lived in the same time period from fossil have been drawn). Now there is not a single drawing of a dinosaur. If a person encounters all those animals and draws them it would be very very unlikely when he faces a t-rex and says, nah, I'm not going to draw that one.


There are.. Dragons are very prominent in many pottery pieces and cave drawings... do tribes or cultures collaborate on identical fictional characterizations for pottery?

The fossils that I am referring to are of a mans footprint inside of a dinosaurs footprint, though. There were tons of them found in Texas. The problems lay in such cases that most media sources do not want to disprove the evolutionary theory, so they do not get announced / or even ignored all together..

Galatians 2: 20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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The painting doesn't look very convincing.

The carvings are a different story. But I know nothing about them. It's interesting though and I'll look for some other info on the internet.

Mistakes are easily made and the carving of what looks like a triceratops looks more like a horned chameleon to me:


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/659/chameleoneb4.jpg
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Originally posted by: Number20
Coov is right, Zombie. You are saying you aren't insulting Christians, but then you turn around and do so. You continue to say that all Christians are rural, uneducated and stupid, and the urban, intelligent, educated people are all athests because they are smart and 'know better'.

Did you even read my previous posts? I made it explicitly clear that many theists are brilliant, and that this is not a total rule, nor was i saying "all theists are idiots." In fact, none of those statements were my personal opinion, which i made very clear. I was pointing out that STATISTICALLY, theists are less educated than atheists.

This seems to be one of your major arguments against Christianity and God.

No its not, the only reason it got brought up was in response to something someone said.

Once again, as for evolution and the big bang, I still say there is just as much faith to believe that as there is for one to beleive in creation. I didn't say that science just made it up, but if you completely understanding of the orgins of the universe and have complete and irrefutable proof for evolution, then you have made the greatest discovery of all time.

Better call the Nobel committee because this Darwin guy i think did something like that a few years ago.

There is no 'proof'. only clues and hints.

Thats what indicates the conclusion. Conclusion based on objective, observable evidence. Just like gravity. How do you "prove" gravity any more than you can "prove" evolution? You make observations and draw a conclusion that is consistent with those. Even garvity, in your book, would be "just hints and clues."

This is where faith comes in. You have faith that what someone else said about evolution is true. And you have faith that what science currently believes is true, even though in the end, it is just conjecture based on evidence that could be interpreted many different ways.


This is not faith. Its simply the limit of human knowledge. We don't "have faith"--faith means believing in something in spite of evidence. Its quite the opposite. We say "given what we know, this is the best conclusion we can make, and it appears to be true." That conclusion can be refined and updated as new knowledge is gathered.

Christ is a loving God! There is nothing to be afraid of in Him. He gave you every breath. He died for you because He loves you and He wants you to become a part of His family.


Yeah, but he'll burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't worship him. The God of Christianity/Judaism is the most psychotic sociopath ever committed to paper, and i say that without exaggeration. People who often claim he is "loving" don't pay much attention to the Old Testament, or even large sections of the New Testament, where he kills people for the most immature reasons (such as sending bears to maul children to death for making fun of a priests bald spot) and commands his soldiers to kill women and children. Sure, there is a lot of "love thy neighbour" stuff in the Gospel story, and similar niceities here and there, but they are surrounded by bloodletting and human destruction on a scale that is truely disturbing.
This also brings up another point in the supposed "monotheism" of Judeo-Christianity, which clearly does not exist when one talks about Christ as "a God" (oh, but wait, it's a technicality because he is both his son and god himself, which doesn't make a lot of sense--this however doesn't explain the deification of Mary, Jehovah, Yahweh, the Elohim and all the other gods of the Israel tribes).

I for one whole heartedly believe in their existence, but I believe they roamed the planet at the same time as man.

I believe that the earth is approximately 6-7-maybe 8 thousand years old.



Okay, now this is just fucking stupid. Do you really believe this? Are you so deluded, so ignorant to objective evidence that you could possible have such an incredibly dumb opinion such as this? If this is the level of intellect that this discussion has devolved to, then theres not much hope. It really saddens me to see human beings living in the year 2006 and still believing such incredible bullshit such as this, especially when they are probably intelligent in most other respects. Whatever. Like I said, religious people are less educated than atheists but they are also happier--i hope you find a lifetime of bliss in your ignorance.



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You still keep claiming that you are not bashing religious people, I guess you have failed to read your own posts. I just wanted to post something real quick. No where in the Bible will you find Mary deified. Jehovah, Yahweh, the Elohim are all the same God. Jehovah isn't even a Biblical name for God. It is actually a mixture of two names for God, I wont go into details here. Zombe, why does it bother you so much people believe differently than you? Our "ignorance is doing you no harm, also you are extremely ignorant to religion. And example of that is that you said Christianity evolved from Platonism, this is entirely untrue. Also if we are so sure of the big bang theory and there is so much evidence, then how could there still be theist scientists? You said you could get 50 scientist in the same room and get them to agree, that fact that you said this proves you have no idea what you are talking about. You wont even be able to take 20 and get them to agree. And last of all, since we are so ignorant we get to enjoy life in ignorant bliss as you say. Very well, we will enjoy our lives, and in the end we wont have to fear death. Sounds good to me. But I don't think we are so blissfully ignorant. You claim you do your own research and that you are well educated. I am not quite seeing this. The fact you gave the Jesus Seminar even a modicum of value shows you have no idea what it even was.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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No, they are not different translations, they are different gods, worshipped at different times by various regions of the Israel tribes. The newer King James version of the bible just translates them all as "God" because the modern revisionist/apologist viewpoint is that they are all just different names for the same deity. But if you actually know biblical history, they are actually different deities. The Elohim are the oldest, and these are the god(s) that appear in Genesis--which is why, for example, God refers to himself in the plural on one occassion and why he is so inconsistent with later chapters (ie walking around the garden, adam and eve physically hiding from him). Yahweh was a fiery "angry" god of later chaotic war-torn times, and most of the "venegeful god" stuff is a product of this god, who is symbolised by the volcano of course. Bel/Bal and the Adonai of course are another pantheon of gods. Judaism is a very fractured history with many tribes worshipping various gods and warring with each other, absorbing the different deities into each other and slowly building the perceived-monotheistic beliefs of later times.

As for Mary, yes, it is mostly Catholics that deify her, but she indeed is deified--i mean, when you PRAY to Mary, what else do you call it?? Catholics have long been in denial about this fact. Most religions have some sort of "goddess" myth though, and Mary fills the role nicely.

You still keep claiming that you are not bashing religious people, I guess you have failed to read your own posts.

I don't have a problem with religious people per se, because a lot of them are level headed. But those proposing the earth is flat or that it is under ten thousand years old, yes I'll bash them, not because they are religious but because thats just bloody stupid.

No where in the Bible will you find Mary deified.

I am aware of this. Sometimes, however, a mythology develops independently of its actual text or content.

Our "ignorance is doing you no harm, also you are extremely ignorant to religion. And example of that is that you said Christianity evolved from Platonism, this is entirely untrue.


Actually, it is quite, but actual archeology and history are pretty foreign to most people so most people don't know about the actual socio-political scene of Rome Circa 70 CE when Christianity was roughly created.

Also if we are so sure of the big bang theory and there is so much evidence, then how could there still be theist scientists?


In spite of your inability to understand this, pretty much every actual scientists believes in the big bang, and most of those are theists (out of the simple fact that most human beings are theists). How does that work? It just does, i guess. How does believing in the big bang immediately nullify god? It doesn't necessarily, because most theistic scientists don't believe in such a narrow, dogmatic religion-based god, and those that are christian don't take the Bible literally. They believe in "a god", not God (ie christ, etc.).

Sounds good to me. But I don't think we are so blissfully ignorant. You claim you do your own research and that you are well educated. I am not quite seeing this. The fact you gave the Jesus Seminar even a modicum of value shows you have no idea what it even was.


How does that show i have no idea what i am saying??? I really don't follow your logic here. The Jesus Seminars was a conference of scholars and experts on history. What are you talking about? Anyway, i wouldn't expect someone who believes Dinosaurs were roaming the Earth a few hundred thousand years ago to be agreeing with me.
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Just want to add my two cents to this.

As has been said, Christianity (and believe in God) is not something that can be proved. It is a matter of faith. What has also been brought up is that it takes even more faith to believe that we came to be on this Earth by a series of coincidences, and that life on Earth began with a lightning bolt hitting the “primordial soup of life.” This is simply not any more plausible than the existence of God, even less so. I’m sure there’s a good chance there are historical inaccuracies in the Bible. Even the four Gospels contradict themselves in the details. To draw the conclusion that this means there is no God is ludicrous. And I do believe that Genesis is more symbolic in the 6 day creation than factual.

For me, being a Christian is pretty much summed up by the fact that life has a purpose, it has a meaning. I know God, he guides me. A series of personal situations I went through only strengthened my faith. On the occasions I had the humility to realize that I need God’s help, it was amazing to me how quickly things unraveled themselves. The difference between asking for help and not asking for help was actually really hilarious. This is not something that can be proved, and people may laugh, but it can only be know from personal experience.

Another thing to keep in mind:

1. What do the Christians lose if God doesn’t exist? Nothing.
2. What do the atheists lose if God does exist?

Everything.




But the atheists are the brilliant, enlightened ones…

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Originally posted by: Trooperman
Just want to add my two cents to this.

As has been said, Christianity (and believe in God) is not something that can be proved. It is a matter of faith. What has also been brought up is that it takes even more faith to believe that we came to be on this Earth by a series of coincidences, and that life on Earth began with a lightning bolt hitting the “primordial soup of life.” This is simply not any more plausible than the existence of God, even less so. I’m sure there’s a good chance there are historical inaccuracies in the Bible. Even the four Gospels contradict themselves in the details. To draw the conclusion that this means there is no God is ludicrous. And I do believe that Genesis is more symbolic in the 6 day creation than factual.

For me, being a Christian is pretty much summed up by the fact that life has a purpose, it has a meaning. I know God, he guides me. A series of personal situations I went through only strengthened my faith. On the occasions I had the humility to realize that I need God’s help, it was amazing to me how quickly things unraveled themselves. The difference between asking for help and not asking for help was actually really hilarious. This is not something that can be proved, and people may laugh, but it can only be know from personal experience.

Another thing to keep in mind:

1. What do the Christians lose if God doesn’t exist? Nothing.
2. What do the atheists lose if God does exist?

Everything.




But the atheists are the brilliant, enlightened ones…


I hope you're not implying that one of the reasons that you're a theist/ Christian is to simply be on the safe side. Personally, I don't believe in an undetectable, supernatural condition on the universe. But when I was younger and more succeptible to these ideas, I remember thinking: what about all the people in the world who aren’t Christian? Are their beliefs incorrect? And if they were, it must mean that a great deal of people got sent to hell after they died. But I’m sure that Christianity is incorrect according to most of the other faiths. Of course, I've moved on since then and no longer think or see the world that way. Still, there was an immediate contradiction once I learned of other religions. How would I choose which religion to put my money on, in hopes that I had gotten it right? It would be impossible, seeing as they all share the same flaw: the absence of any hard scientific proof to back up their creeds or dogmas.

"We came to be on this Earth by a series of coincidences." I see this as one of the most grievous misconceptions about the evolution of life. Whenever something reproduces with variations each time, some variations are bound to be better suited to the environment than others, and those varieties preferentially survive and leave more offspring of its kind. Given 3 or 4 billion years, you can see how such finely tuned (but still not perfect) organisms can evolve. In a way, natural selection is the exact opposite of the random process it is often described as, because it only selects those occasional mutations that enhance survival.

Anyway, just had to put my two cents in.
Don't forget: with Lacuna, you can forget.
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Originally posted by: Trooperman

Another thing to keep in mind:

1. What do the Christians lose if God doesn’t exist? Nothing.
2. What do the atheists lose if God does exist?

Everything.


Ehmm... I really don't get what you're saying here. If God doesn't exist it seems to me Christians loose everything. If there's no God then there's probabably no heaven. It seems to me if you felt your whole life you were being guided by God and then you find out he doesn't exist you seriously doubt yourself. Away is your purpose you thought you had.

And if an atheists finds out there is a God? He looses everything? I don't believe in God but if for some reason I change my mind I loose everything? I think most Christians will say I've finally seen the light. So I'm not loosing anything. I'm gaining a whole lot!

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.