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Interesting tidbit about who shot first

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From the original 1976 Star Wars novel:

Something which might have been a laugh came from the creature's translator. "They'd hardly notice. Get up, Solo. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. You've embarrased me in front of Jabba with your pious excuses for the last time."
"I think you're right."
Light and noise filled the little corner of the cantina, and when it had faded, all that remained of the unctuous alien was a smoking, slimy spot on the stone floor.

So actually we couldn't really tell who shot first. It was blotted out by the book.

Any questions?
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Originally posted by: Ingo Sucks
From the original 1976 Star Wars novel:

Something which might have been a laugh came from the creature's translator. "They'd hardly notice. Get up, Solo. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. You've embarrased me in front of Jabba with your pious excuses for the last time."
"I think you're right."
Light and noise filled the little corner of the cantina, and when it had faded, all that remained of the unctuous alien was a smoking, slimy spot on the stone floor.

So actually we couldn't really tell who shot first. It was blotted out by the book.

Any questions?


No, but an observation. Filmed events supercede those in the novel, unless Obi Wan and Owen are brothers and I just wasn't paying attention.

No offense to you, Ingo Sucks, since I think you simply posted this in fun. Some will actually use this in all seriousness to try to confuse the issue of who shot first (or shot at all, to be precise).

This argument isn't half as good as "Lucas couldn't get the shot right at that time." If that's the case, how did he manage to make Han's shot look so convincing?

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In the actual movie you don't see anyone shooting. That was the superior version. All you saw was a big white explosion. It wasn't until the smoke cleared that you learned that Han Solo shot first.

Whether reading that book or seeing the actual movie, its pretty lame to believe that Greedo ever got a shot off, since Han would've probably been wounded in that case. Greedo was not aiming at the wall like the digital recreation in the Special Editions tries to depict.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
In the actual movie you don't see anyone shooting. That was the superior version. All you saw was a big white explosion. It wasn't until the smoke cleared that you learned that Han Solo shot first.

Whether reading that book or seeing the actual movie, its pretty lame to believe that Greedo ever got a shot off, since Han would've probably been wounded in that case. Greedo was not aiming at the wall like the digital recreation in the Special Editions tries to depict.


So Greedo was going to kill Han? Jabba didn't want Han alive? So why didn't Fett just shoot Han? Saves a lot of trouble, no? I don't want to hear that Fett was a superior Bounty Hunter than Greedo either, because he woouldn't have captured Han were it not for being in cahoots with Vader, and it didn't work out for him too well either, did it? Fett could've just killed Han like Greedo was "going to do" and like, 90% of Jabba's cronies would have survived, 'cause of the fatalities in the rescue attempt.

In other words, Han didn't shoot first. Greedo never shot.
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Originally posted by: TheCassidy
So Greedo was going to kill Han? Jabba didn't want Han alive? So why didn't Fett just shoot Han? Saves a lot of trouble, no? I don't want to hear that Fett was a superior Bounty Hunter than Greedo either, because he woouldn't have captured Han were it not for being in cahoots with Vader, and it didn't work out for him too well either, did it? Fett could've just killed Han like Greedo was "going to do" and like, 90% of Jabba's cronies would have survived, 'cause of the fatalities in the rescue attempt.

In other words, Han didn't shoot first. Greedo never shot.


I believe Greedo was a hot-head, according to the original script and just his stated intent in that scene. If Han hadn't shot Greedo, then Greedo would have shot him. In empire we had a very different bounty and an actual bounty hunter (not some trigger happy gang member). So, yes Greedo was going to kill Han, more likely than not.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I think instead of all this shooting at one another, Lucas could've just clarified his intentions by cutting in a quick insert shot of Greedo raising his blaster or about to squeeze the trigger. Just something. The scene just feels fairly devoid of tension. How the heck is Han NOT supposed to come off as a cold blooded killer if Greedo just waves around a blaster throughout the scene? Despite his dialogue, he just doesn't LOOK like he's about to shoot anyone.
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This won't change what happened in the released OOT. Han shot first!
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Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes
I think instead of all this shooting at one another, Lucas could've just clarified his intentions by cutting in a quick insert shot of Greedo raising his blaster or about to squeeze the trigger. Just something. The scene just feels fairly devoid of tension. How the heck is Han NOT supposed to come off as a cold blooded killer if Greedo just waves around a blaster throughout the scene? Despite his dialogue, he just doesn't LOOK like he's about to shoot anyone.


What are you smoking? Did you not see Han's hand inching towards his blaster during the confrontation?

I don't care if people think Han is a cold blooded killer. Han was, is and always will be the coolest character in the Star Wars galaxy.
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Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes
I think instead of all this shooting at one another, Lucas could've just clarified his intentions by cutting in a quick insert shot of Greedo raising his blaster or about to squeeze the trigger. Just something. The scene just feels fairly devoid of tension. How the heck is Han NOT supposed to come off as a cold blooded killer if Greedo just waves around a blaster throughout the scene? Despite his dialogue, he just doesn't LOOK like he's about to shoot anyone.


Seriously? You have no tension when you watch that scene? Han pulling his blaster out of its holster and aiming it at Greedo the under the table? Greedo saying that Han was going to soon be dead and that he was looking forward to "this" for a long time? Then a big white explosion obscurring who was able to fire his blaster first?

Plenty of tension for me.

Though I will admit that the SE kind of removes all of the fun from that scene somehow . . . like an annoying headache.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I think Lucas was just really strapped on time and money. I am not so sure a reshoot after the fact would have been possible. I think that's why he just "fixed it in post" by tweaking the dialogue to make it clear that Greedo planned on shooting Han.

Obvioulsy some here didn't think it was all that obvious based on Greedo's body language, which just goes to show the subtitles weren't always enough to get that point across.

I think that's why Lucas felt it had to be clarified.

I can see why people don't all like it, but at least the 2004 SE isn't quite as awkward looking, and they shoot at almost the same time to the point that both shots are on the screen at the same time, with Greedo's just a touch quicker.

To me that timing change alters it from a reaction shot on Han's part, to a shot he was making at about the same time. I always looked at that timing change to be a "okay let's meet in the middle" on Lucas' part.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I think Lucas was just really strapped on time and money. I am not so sure a reshoot after the fact would have been possible. I think that's why he just "fixed it in post" by tweaking the dialogue to make it clear that Greedo planned on shooting Han.

Gary Kurtz himself has refuted this ridiculous assertion on the part of Luca$h. The scene was that way because Luca$h wanted it that way. It was that way in the original script, which is why it appears that way in Alan Dean Foster's novelisation and in the film. The film represents exactly what appears in the novelisation.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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The funny thing is that prior to 1997, I never once, not once, heard anybody say anything to the extent of "Oh, it sure is a shame Lucas made Han Solo such a cold blooded killer, otherwise his character would have been pretty cool." It is such a bunch of crap. The scene worked great, looked great, it was probably one of the movies most memorable traits. It is stupid how society gets so sensitive about things. Back in the 80s Han's blaster under the table thing was so smooth, everyone loved it. Today, "oh my, what violence. He wasn't even provoked." So now we have a Star Wars saga where Han Solo is a big softy who hesitates to shoot until having been shot at first, and Darth Vader is a mass murderer of children, never actually having killed a real Jedi before until Obi-Wan.

Also, just a hint of advice to everybody. If ever you find yourself in a simular situation to Han's, if you value your life more than you value the life of the guy holding the gun on you, then by all means don't hesitate to pull the trigger. If you wait for him to do it first, then it is already over. And no matter what anybody says, you are not a cold blooded killer, you were just acting in self defense, the gun in his hand proves that.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Just because Gary Kurtz couldn't understand why Lucas wouldn't just have shot it with Greedo shooting first from the get go doesn't mean Lucas wasn't trying to have Greedo shoot first. According to Lucas he tried, and failed 3 times to get the squib shot right, so he tried making it clear that Greedo planned on killing him with the dialogue.

Nothing against Kurtz, but to me he isn't the final word on what goes on in Lucas' head.

As far as scripts and novels representing that Han shot while Greedo didn't, this thread is based on the fact that the novel in question here didn't make that clear.

I think Lucas probably heard from enough kids who thought Han was cool -because- they felt he had killed Greedo in cold blood, that he felt a moral obligation to make it clearer that he didn't.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Just because Gary Kurtz couldn't understand why Lucas wouldn't just have shot it with Greedo shooting first from the get go doesn't mean Lucas wasn't trying to have Greedo shoot first. According to Lucas he tried, and failed 3 times to get the squib shot right, so he tried making it clear that Greedo planned on killing him with the dialogue.
Nothing against Kurtz, but to me he isn't the final word on what goes on in Lucas' head.
Few would know more about problems the director was having with SFX shots, time constraints or financial constraints than the producer.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
As far as scripts and novels representing that Han shot while Greedo didn't, this thread is based on the fact that the novel in question here didn't make that clear.

Neither does the film.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I think Lucas probably heard from enough kids who thought Han was cool -because- they felt he had killed Greedo in cold blood, that he felt a moral obligation to make it clearer that he didn't.

Han didn't shoot in cold blood, he shot in self defence. Clearly you're not a western fan.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Well one of the few who would know more than Kurtz about that stuff would be Lucas.

I know that he shot in self defense, but notice how many people claim having Greedo shoot first alters Han's character?

It obviously wasn't clear to everyone.
Your focus determines your reality.
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"self defense" and "cold blood" don't equal the same thing. If he really had tried so hard to film Greedo shooting first, why does the novel leave it ambiguous? I guess it is really hard to edit things in books before they get published. That is why so many books have spelling and grammar error. I suppose Allen Dean Foster tried several times to get Greedo to shoot first, but he just couldn't get the ink to stick to the paper. Also while you say Gary Kurtz isnt an authority for what goes on inside Lucas' head, well honestly neither is Lucas. He is the same guy who claimed the OT doesn't exist anymore, then released them in crap quailty for his wallets sake. He also claimed to have the whole story worked out since the beginning, but just has a bit of an incest fetish and really liked the idea of the Skywalker twins making out. Also, he intended Obi-wan to be a filthy liar from the get-go. Kill the kids dad, become his mentor and then blame it all on the evil Sith Lord.

"but notice how many people claim having Greedo shoot first alters Han's character? It obviously wasn't clear to everyone."

I guess Lucas is a genius after all, this man actually anticipated that there would be hoards of moronic SW fan post 1997 that couldn't tell the difference between cold blooded killers and people defending themselves WHEN THEY HAVE A GUN POINTED AT THEIR HEAD. George decided to do something for the sake of these fans before it got out of hand and they started listing Han among Micheal Myers and Jason Vorhees (I have no idea how to spell that name). You know, I feel my respect for Lucas coming back. He really knew what he was doing the whole time.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Well one of the few who would know more than Kurtz about that stuff would be Lucas.
My point is that the producer would know if the director had given up on any particular shot or decided to go with another shot for whatever reason.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I know that he shot in self defense, but notice how many people claim having Greedo shoot first alters Han's character?
It obviously wasn't clear to everyone.

It doesn't necessarily change his character but it is certainly a terrible bodge of a scene which was more effective the first time round.

EDIT: It also makes out Han to be slow on the trigger and the up-take.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: C3PX
If he really had tried so hard to film Greedo shooting first, why does the novel leave it ambiguous? Maybe he was trying to match it up to how the finished movie would turn out. Lucas was saying he was trying to get around his filming mistake by altering the dialogue to show that the plan was to kill Han.
Originally posted by: C3PX
I guess it is really hard to edit things in books before they get published. That is why so many books have spelling and grammar error. I suppose Allen Dean Foster tried several times to get Greedo to shoot first, but he just couldn't get the ink to stick to the paper. Yeah you do suppose that.
Originally posted by: C3PX Also while you say Gary Kurtz isnt an authority for what goes on inside Lucas' head, well honestly neither is Lucas.
Oh so -you- are the final say on what goes on in Lucas' head. Where have you been this whole time, I've been looking all over for you. Originally posted by: C3PX He is the same guy who claimed the OT doesn't exist anymore, then released them in crap quailty for his wallets sake.

He released it in the best quality he could without going out of his way to do it at our relentless, daily request. In the end, he did it against his own personal wishes.Originally posted by: C3PX
He also claimed to have the whole story worked out since the beginning, but just has a bit of an incest fetish and really liked the idea of the Skywalker twins making out. Also, he intended Obi-wan to be a filthy liar from the get-go. Kill the kids dad, become his mentor and then blame it all on the evil Sith Lord.
Lucas has never once claimed to have all this worked out since the beginning. But who am I to question you, the true authority on what really goes on in Lucas' head?
Your focus determines your reality.
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He has claimed to have it all worked out since the beginning. He said that about Luke and Leia, that he had always intended them to be brother and sister. If that was true, what was up with the kiss. I didn't say I was the authority on what goes on in Lucas' head, I am just saying that Kurtz would have known more than you give him credit for, and Lucas have a bit of a record of contradicting himself. Also, why would he have released the GOUT against his own wishes? That is perhaps the dumbest statment I have heard in a long time. Who exactly put the gun to his head and told him he had to release the GOUT? Nobody. He did it because he wanted to release his stupid trilogy on DVD for the third time in three years. Anyway, this conversation is stupid. The gun under the table thing was something people could understand pretty well. It is quite typically the type of thing you would see in movies around that time, and in the movies Lucas was imitating. You're never going to get that, to you Lucas always invisioned Han as a retarded git who has managed to survive with a death mark through sheer Jar jarish dumb luck. I love revisionist history. Sometimes I forget why I never post in the General SW Discussion thread, but there is always somebody in here to remind me to steer clear.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: C3PX
He has claimed to have it all worked out since the beginning. He said that about Luke and Leia, that he had always intended them to be brother and sister. If that was true, what was up with the kiss? I didn't say I was the authority on what goes on in Lucas' head, I am just saying that Kurtz would have known more than you give him credit for, and Lucas have a bit of a record of contradicting himself. Also, why would he have released the GOUT against his own wishes? That is perhaps the dumbest statement I have heard in a long time. Who exactly put the gun to his head and told him he had to release the GOUT? Nobody. He did it because he wanted to release his stupid trilogy on DVD for the third time in three years. Anyway, this conversation is stupid. The gun under the table thing was something people could understand pretty well. It is quite typically the type of thing you would see in movies around that time, and in the movies Lucas was imitating. You're never going to get that, to you Lucas always envisioned Han as a retarded git who has managed to survive with a death mark through sheer Jar jarish dumb luck. I love revisionist history. Sometimes I forget why I never post in the General SW Discussion thread, but there is always somebody in here to remind me to steer clear.
Could you possibly direct me to any quote of Lucas' where he claims to have had the "Luke and Leia being siblings" plot point set in stone from the get go?

Because if I took some time to dig around, I could come up with quotes where he explains he came to that conclusion sometime during the post production of ESB, and that choice was able to kill two birds with one stone by both explaining the "other" that Yoda spoke of, and giving Luke a reason to lose it during his final confrontation with Vader.

I agree that Kurtz would know a lot, I just think that Lucas is the higher authority on what goes on in his own head.

Lucas told us back with the THX release that it would be the last time he would release the O-OT on home video. We started petitions like this one to get him to reconsider. Lucas reiterated several times that he wasn't interested in re-releasing the O-OT and that he would just make his newer versions available. When Steve Sansweet talked about this release at Comic con, he said that the main reason they put out these single releases of the classic trilogy was to cater to people who hadn't bought the box set, who only wanted one or two of the movies, or perhaps for people who wanted to spread out purchasing them all over time. He went on to say it was another opportunity for them to go back to Lucas and ask him again to put the O-OT on DVD for the millions of fans just like us who have been relentlessly begging him for it.

He doesn't need a reason to release further pressings of Star Wars, because there is constant demand for those movies.

As far as not understanding the simple elegance of the way the Han/Greedo sequence played out before, I do understand that. I didn't mind it the way it was, but at the same time I can see why Lucas wanted to change it and in the end it's not that big of a deal to me. I personally don't think it changes anything about Han, he was always in a position of self-defense.

And it's too bad that you have a hard time accepting opinions that differ from your own.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I agree that Kurtz would know a lot, I just think that Lucas is the higher authority on what goes on in his own head.

We're not talking about his head, we're talking about his films.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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We are discussing wether or not Lucas originally intended to have Greedo shoot first. His intentions happen in his head, and aren't always evident in how the movie turned out.
Your focus determines your reality.
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And since he's a known liar, his statements about what his intentions were cannot be trusted.

Heck, I'm not a liar, and any statements I might make about my intentions a quarter century ago should not be trusted either.


In any event, though I myself am perfectly accepting of other people's opinions, I am NOT accepting of art revisionism.



BTW, just because laws are on the books does not make them just. Copyright laws are onerous and, imo, completely unjust. Star Wars is - in my book - far less "owned" by Mr. Lucas than by the public. That makes him a vandal in my book. Add in liar, and I don't have a picture of a good man at all.





Then, of course, there's that neck.
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He is a widely accused liar, but I have yet to see anyone prove he is a liar.

While your memory might not be great, I would still consider you the highest authority on what you personally thought in your own head.

And I don't see any reason to say that if art is good enough, it ceases to be the intellectual property of the artist and instead becomes public domain. That's almost like saying if you make enough money, you have to give it all away to charity.

Is Lucas revising history? Or merely clarifying your understanding of it?
Your focus determines your reality.