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What's Original '77 and What's Not? — Page 2

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35mm stereo mix (except Fox fanfare, which isn't the '54 recording by Alfred Newman) courtesy of Jeanine

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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I did some more investigation into the sound mixes. Here's what I came up with.


The Star Wars (theatrical version) "bonus disc" features the 1993 Definitive Collection sound mix as the basis for the English audio track. The only difference between the DVD and the DC laserdisc is the original opening crawl being slapped onto the beginning of the movie (which also allows the musical "crash" to be properly in sync with the reveal of Tatooine, as it was originally, before the "ANH" subtitle was added in 1981).

The disc's optional Spanish and French language tracks (which were probably dug out of the Lucasfilm Archives for this Limited Edition release), however, are based on the rarely-heard MONO sound mix from 1977!!!!

How do I know?


*Threepio says the famous tractor beam lines (in French/Spanish), lines that do not appear in the Defintive Collection mix.

*Luke (albeit speaking in French/Spanish) says, "Blast it, Wedge, where are you?" (as he does in the mono mix), as opposed to, "Blast it, Biggs, where are you?" as he does in all other versions of the movie.

* The Falcon's chessboard creatures make some different sounds than all other versions of the movie.

* The additional Falcon cockpit sounds (and the whizzing asteroid sounds heard as the ship comes out of hyperspace) that were originally exclusive to the mono mix (and were added back in for the 1997 SE) can be heard on the Spanish and French tracks.


On the 2004 SE DVD, the Spanish audio track is completely new, and uses the 2004 SE mix as its basis.

However, the French audio track is the same one that appears on the "bonus disc" (This version is still based on the original mono mix, with the same French-speaking voice actors as can be heard on the "bonus disc". In this version, French-speaking Luke still says, "Blast it, Wedge, where are you?", while on the new Spanish track, he says, "Blast it, Biggs, where are you?", as in the 2004 SE.), but with the SE material spliced in at the appropriate spots!!!! It seems they even used different voice actors for the added scenes and dialogue (such as Han's voice in the restored Jabba scene)!

But, aside from the SE additions, the original sounds for the Vader/Kenobi duel can still be heard on the French track, as well as the alternate Falcon chessboard creature sounds from the mono mix!


For Empire, the English audio track on the bonus disc is the same as the Definitive Collection sound mix. However, the French and Spanish audio tracks feature a different sound mix than the 1993 Definitive Collection, a mix which appears to be based on the original 70 mm sound mix from the film's initial theatrical release!

This alternate mix features some additional sounds that were not heard on the 35mm and subsequent home video versions, but which were later reincorporated into the 1997 and 2004 mixes. Such sounds include additional R2-D2 beeps when Yoda rummages through Luke's supplies, and additional TIE fighter engine sounds in the establishing shot of Darth Vader's Star Destroyer (after Luke beheads the illusory Vader on Dagobah).


On the 2004 Empire DVD, the Spanish audio track is completely new (as with ANh and ROTJ), and uses the 2004 SE mix as its basis.

However, the French audio track is the same one that appears on the "bonus disc" (based on the original 70 mm mix, with the same French-speaking voice actors), but with the SE material spliced in at the appropriate spots. For example, Luke does not say, "Thanks, Threepio." in the Hoth medical center in the French version (but he does in the new Spanish track).


Finally, for the Jedi 2004 SE, the Spanish audio track is completely new (As with ANH and ESB), and uses the 2004 SE mix as its basis. However, the French audio track is the same as the one on the "bonus disc", albeit with new SE material spliced in.
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Originally posted by: Mielr
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen



4) Lastly, the long-debated matter of the opening crawl. So much pre-release talk about it. Well, the DVD's been out for a week! Anyone care to venture a final answer? Original or a well-intentioned copy?
The crawl is faithful to the 1977 version- but I guess the debate as to whether or not it's the real film crawl or a digitally re-created one will go on.



The star pattern in the background, the speed of the crawl, etc. all match the Empire of Dreams version, so I think it's restored from an original print or set of elements.
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Yeah, I'm getting pretty darn convinced that it's the real opening crawl. boris' evidence really sold that for me (thanks, boris). Something about the music synch seems off to me, but I may just have romanticized the synch over the ensuing years of the missing crawl.


Alas, the sight of the crawl - while nice - didn't make me flip like I hoped it would. I've seen it too many times in the past couple of years (though only once actually attached to the movie). Heheh, when it took me totally by surprise in Empire of Dreams, I nearly sh!t myself ... but I guess the thrill is gone.



And I will still look forward to maybe a custom soundtrack bootleg someday ... because I won't be completely happy till I seventysevenize the entire frelling movie!
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Originally posted by: Zion
About the opening crawl...

If you watch it closely, you can see that the stars wobble like hell, but the text doesn't. one might immediately assume that it is a digital recreation, but if you look at the crawl from Empire of Dreams, it does the exact same thing. Now I don't know if anyone knows for sure where the EOD crawl came from, but if anyone can say for a fact that it was a direct film capture, I'll believe that the GOUT crawl is the real deal plus some minor cleanup and color correction.


As I already said earlier, if you freeze frame the FIRST frame the "STAR WARS" logo appears, and advance 11 frames, you can see DIRT on the lens between the lower connection of the "S" and "T".

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Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: zombie84
Someone needs to do a layered composite of the two crawls to see if they sync up down to the pixel.
It's not necessary... the crawl is obviously an optical composite.. here, I'll show you...

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9091/crawlhf3.gif

Notice 2 things... on the "a" is a "dark star" that goes over the text, and over the "e" a scratch appears in 1 frame. This would not be the case if it was a digital recreation.


Boris, I said a lot of nasty things to you in the past (which many of them are still true IMHO).

But this is a really nice catch you made!

If you like, you can make another screenshot from the other fault I reported above. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Honestly, I think most people were a little bit too fast here to dismiss the textcrawl as CGI generated. I was expecting this too, but to my surprise, IT REALLY SEEMS TO BE THE ORIGINAL. Problem is, these most probably false claims from us have started to spread around...

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Originally posted by: zombie84
Now, i wonder--is the entire opening shot (ie crawl+stardestroyer) a new transfer as well? Because that original shot on the laserdisk had a different starfield did it not? Or is the new crawl simply blended with the old star destroyer shot? I ask this because if the whole thing is from a new transfer that may indicate that LFL has material ready for a pristine transfer of the OOT, and may even have already done such a scan.


The stardestroyer scene looks clearly better than the rest of the film, and it is the original shot, since you can see the original black corners around the star destroyer when it overlaps with the moon.

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Someone on another site claimed that the star destroyer fly-over is taken from the SE.

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Originally posted by: Mielr
Someone on another site claimed that the star destroyer fly-over is taken from the SE.


This "someone" is obviously just babbling. You can, as I already said, see the black corners around the Star Destroyer due to optical compositing. They fixed that in the SE.

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Originally posted by: Vigo
Honestly, I think most people were a little bit too fast here to dismiss the textcrawl as CGI generated. I was surprised when Mverta claimed he spotted the obvious CG crawl right away... when he's supposed to be a professional in the field; and I have a hard time believing the crawl is recreated (at least until some real evidence for this is shown). I also have a hard time believing they would re-scan the star-destroyer fly-over if they were going to do a CGI crawl.Originally posted by: Mielr
Someone on another site claimed that the star destroyer fly-over is taken from the SE.
Actually, that was just another thread - it was another simple assumption made by the person who said it:

The 1977 Crawl.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Yeah, I'm getting pretty darn convinced that it's the real opening crawl. boris' evidence really sold that for me (thanks, boris). Something about the music synch seems off to me, but I may just have romanticized the synch over the ensuing years of the missing crawl.



In the original version of the opening shot, the big symphonic crash is in sync with our first glimpse of Tatooine (just as the planet's curvature enters ther bottom of the frame). In the post-1981 versions, the sync is off, and we hear the music crash after Tatooine is already in frame. You're probably just used to the post-1981 versions.

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No, that's not exactly what I meant about my synch memory. I am thrilled to have the Tatooine reveal crash restored.

But I seem to remember other crescendos of the score being perfectly timed with the paragraph ends (much easier to achieve with those great one-word, hanging paragraph ends!).


Um, I freely admit I may have imagined this effect from simply listening to the score a zillion times, and picturing the crawl in my skull - - naturally synching up the various crescendos of the theme with the paragraphs as I imaginatively read them (loving the sensation of actually having to turn my head from side-to-side to read the text as it issues from the bottom of the giant screen, wider than my peripheral field of vision).


But speaking of comparisons to the EoD crawl ... whatever became of the controvery that the words "STAR WARS" disappear far earlier in relation to the crawl on the EoD version than on the new DVD? Completely subjectively, it seems to me that "STAR WARS" does indeed remain on the screen far too long into the crawl's appearance.



Don't get me wrong ... I'm eager and willing to be shown that the crawl is the real deal. And I incline in that direction right now.



And I'm glad I'm not insane about the subsequently added sound effects. (I hate being wrong about everything.)



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But speaking of comparisons to the EoD crawl ... whatever became of the controvery that the words "STAR WARS" disappear far earlier in relation to the crawl on the EoD version than on the new DVD? Completely subjectively, it seems to me that "STAR WARS" does indeed remain on the screen far too long into the crawl's appearance.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm eager and willing to be shown that the crawl is the real deal. And I incline in that direction right now.


Someone (I think Zion) posted a 35mm frame of the original crawl where the Star Wars Logo is still seen when the crawl starts.
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I think the EOD and GOUT crawls are identitcal. In both, the first sentence of the crawl appears before the opening title has fully disappeared into the background.
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I'm gonna compare EoD and new DVD myself. I have no idea if the EoD crawl is authentic, but I'm going to go with my gut reaction of "Thank the Maker" when I first saw it, and give it authentic status in my mind. It will be the grail, and if the new DVD pretty much matches it, thumbs up from me.

(boris' visual evidence posted above with the dark star crossing an "a" and a film scratch on a frame of an "e" was very convincing in its own right.)


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Very intresting....so here s my question then
If you own the laserdisc is it worth buying this DVDs or just stick with the LD copy?

a friend of my feels if its the 1993 laserdic copy whny should he buy the dvds....anyone got any input so i can show him a DVD copys a good idea?
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I have the laserdiscs, but I bought the DVDs. I think the DVDs look much better than the laserdiscs, but if you're not a huge Star Wars fan and you don't watch the movies often, then you may want to stick with the LDs (until the day your laserdisc player breaks, that is, and somebody wants $300 to fix it, then you may want to get the DVDs which are going 'out-of-print' on 12/31)

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Even if they looked exactly the same, not having to flip/exchange discs is enough to justify the price of the set.
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Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
35mm stereo mix (except Fox fanfare, which isn't the '54 recording by Alfred Newman) courtesy of Jeanine


Were is this audio from ? is it a VHS or a LD ?


Another question:

Also it seems like everyones aways looking at A New Hope's audio or diff in the way irt looks, what about Empire and Jedi are there any know copys of this from its time on the big screen like the VHS Bootleg of the frist film or even a TV airing with diff audio?

Are the early VHS/Beta copys of all 3 films diff ?

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That audio is from LD.
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Oh, I just thought of one more thing that's technically not '77, and it bugs me.

Greedo's subtitles not appearing on-screen.


Some might think this a minor point, but the subtitles obscuring part of the image and focusing your attention on the written words distracted audiences from the less-than convincing alien suit that was only two steps beyond a zipper-head.


Whether you buy that or not, it's on the film print in '77, and it's never been on any home release that I know of. This contributes to an unauthentic feeling in that part of the film ... not to mention that folks with 16:9 screens often can't see the subtitles at all.

In the age of 16:9 screens and larger screens becoming commonplace, I think the convention of removing subtitles from the film image and re-entering them in a different, usually much larger, font in the black-bar area should abandoned.


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Originally posted by: StarWarsFan1976
Also it seems like everyones aways looking at A New Hope's audio or diff in the way irt looks,
What? There is no "A New Hope"!

RE: Obi Jeewhyen, On the topic of subtitles...

Well, you're never going to get a "fully" 1977 theatrical version. For that to be possible, you'd have to own a cinema (a home cinema won't do... because you don't have those annoying kids at the back throwing food at you) which uses a projector, screen and speakers consistent with 1977 cinemas in your area.

I do agree it's not very good to have subtitles in the black bars, and I've even seen subtitles in cinemas which were placed so low that to read them your eyes can no longer focus on the picture! It's a problem with the use of the DVD format, not with whether or not it's "original".
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Boris that would be "the original theatrical experience" and it would also have to come with bad concession stands, long line ups and noisey patrons. The term "original theatrical version" implies exactly that--the version of the film, in terms of content of sound and picture, that was show in 1977. Lucasfilm is using it to really mean "the home video version from before the SE," which is very different.
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ok what i mean was there all this diff versions of STAR WARS from 1977 for video there is the the bootleg tape, for audio there are a number of versions now...

that i am asking is there copys of Empire in a bootleg video from 1980 or audio and Jedia in bootleg video from 1983 or audio......

be intresting to hear or see this as they were in 70 mm audio if we can....


Also the 35 mm audio that was posted what version of the LD is it from ?