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Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound? — Page 4

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Here's what I mean by Headroom. ... I think that I'm using it correctly. Quite simply, by looking at the waveform of the converted file, it looks far less compressed (i.e. dynamic range, not file compression) and is normalized to the proper peak levels. Typically in ac3 file compression, the first thing to go is the volume. I think I'm still hearing compression artifacts in some of the louder spots, but it's not what I'd expect for 192.

Meanwhile, I'm still puzzled over the PCM file lengths.

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

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I tried syncing the flac/PCM files to the NTSC GOUT and didn't have any luck either. What I did so far is just convert the native AC3 file to wav and tried to sync the beginning of the PCM track with it. The PCM track needed like a 1.176 s delay(note the number is off the top of my head and may be off a little). I'd fast foward through the remaining track and they got out of sync after some time.
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I believe belbucus is going to come through with a pre-synced '85 mix eventually.
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Ah, I see. I'm used to using and hearing the term headroom used in reference to power amps for stereo equipment, not quite in this sense. Usually "dynamic range" is the term stereo enthusiasts use to describe what you mean. Hmm, interesting. Well, don't forget that the official unaltered Star Wars trilogy DVD set's soundtrack comes not from the 85 set but from the 93 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack, which I guess is the best quality soundtrack ever released for home use for Star Wars. So I'd expect it to have better dynamic range than the 85 laserdisk set.

The only problem with the official DVD soundtrack is that they should have used a higher bit-rate to capture more of the inherent excellence of the original PCM soundtrack, 448k would be great. But I'll say this, even though I'm looking forward to hearing the full uncompressed PCM soundtrack to go with the nice video on the new DVD set, I watched the entire trilogy as soon as it was available at -3RL, which is very loud, and it sounded really good. And I have speakers that are quite revealing, and yet the sound has a smoothness, naturalness and fullness to it that sounds very good indeed. Surprisingly, even at such high volumes, it didn't sound harsh or strained. I guess that shows just how good the source PCM soundtrack is to begin with. I can just imagine how good it's going to sound with the full uncompressed PCM soundtrack.

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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ADM, seventiesfilmnut's files are from the PAL LDs, I believe. As far as dynamic range goes, the 93 mix is largely sourced from the unlimited 70mm print master, whereas the '85 mix is, I believe, largely sourced from the 35mm print master, which is limited.
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PAL, eh. Time wasted, lesson learned. I was hoping to help out Belbucus by providing him the '85 mix ready to go.

Oh well. Back to the drawing board. I've created a custom mix from the GOUT AC3 file (again, I was surprised at it's quality given its bitrate) and have mixed in the four dialogue lines that were restored in the 2004 edition ("We've stopped," "There's no one here," "Tractor Beam" and "Close The Blast Doors." I don't know if the first two were present in any mix, but the first certainly was from the same take as it's surrounding lines. Above all else, I like them.

I've also extrapolated the mix to 5.0 using the Doom9 guide (I wish I new how to steer the LFE frequencies to that channel). I'm going to mix this down to 5.1 at 448 bitrate and see which I like better ... this pseudo surround mix based on the original dolby, or just a PCM mix.

I've got the video upsized to anamorphic, but I don't have widescreen equipment so for now, that's only anecdotal.

Belbucus, will your mix be from PAL or NTSC?

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

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THX: I assume you mean in the 70mm print they didn't use any artificial limiters on the dynamic range of the soundtrack, thus it lets the full unaltered quality of the Star Wars soundtrack shine through? If so, thank God for the 70mm print master and the fact that the Definitive Collection laserdisk PCM soundtrack was taken from such an excellent source. Because it sure does sound great!

The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
PAL, eh. Time wasted, lesson learned. I was hoping to help out Belbucus by providing him the '85 mix ready to go.

Oh well. Back to the drawing board. I've created a custom mix from the GOUT AC3 file (again, I was surprised at it's quality given its bitrate) and have mixed in the four dialogue lines that were restored in the 2004 edition ("We've stopped," "There's no one here," "Tractor Beam" and "Close The Blast Doors." I don't know if the first two were present in any mix, but the first certainly was from the same take as it's surrounding lines. Above all else, I like them.

I've also extrapolated the mix to 5.0 using the Doom9 guide (I wish I new how to steer the LFE frequencies to that channel). I'm going to mix this down to 5.1 at 448 bitrate and see which I like better ... this pseudo surround mix based on the original dolby, or just a PCM mix.

I've got the video upsized to anamorphic, but I don't have widescreen equipment so for now, that's only anecdotal.

Belbucus, will your mix be from PAL or NTSC?



I was rather surprised at the decent quality of the 192k soundtrack too, so I've done a rather similar thing ADM. I deftly reinserted "We've stopped", "There's no one here", 3PO's Tractor beam spiel, and also all of Aunt Beru's original lines as well as the Cantina Cockneys and "Blast it Wedge!" I've created mine using the PAL soundtrack, so if there's any interest, I'll get it uploaded to rapidshare.

Only thing is, I didn't upmix it to 5.1. Is there any great benefit? After all it's only fake 5.1 right?

“I love Darth Editous and I’m not ashamed to admit it.” ~ADigitalMan

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Originally posted by:ADigitalMan

Are the seventiesfilmnut files PAL or NTSC? I have them courtesy of Darth Mallwalker and was trying to get them synchronized to the NTSC GOUT, but it doesn't work. When I synchronize threepio's first line, then by the end of side one ("We will then crush the rebellion ...") it is out considerably. I time-stretched the file so that the first and last lines are both in synch, but the middle of Side One is somhow still way off. With the beginning and end in sync, I'm at a loss to understand why the middle would go out of whack like that.

Any ideas?



I have found in my experience with lining these things up, that they need to be constantly updated to stay in synch. I don’t have a single definitive answer for why this is. Even after any variation in overall running speed is addressed, there always seem to be random spots where one gets slightly ahead of or behind the other. Sometimes it’s a gradual drift - as if one of them shifts in speed, sometimes it jumps out slightly due to dropped frames (this almost always occurs at the original changeover intervals between reels).
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Originally posted by: ADigitalManOh well. Back to the drawing board. I've created a custom mix from the GOUT AC3 file (again, I was surprised at it's quality given its bitrate) and have mixed in the four dialogue lines that were restored in the 2004 edition ("We've stopped," "There's no one here," "Tractor Beam" and "Close The Blast Doors." I don't know if the first two were present in any mix, but the first certainly was from the same take as it's surrounding lines. Above all else, I like them.


I just restored the tractor beam line and "Close the blast doors" as I grew up on the mono mix and would miss them otherwise. I personally don't like the first two you mention

Do you have plans to add back the 70mm dialogue in ESB, such as:
- Luke's "Thanks Threepio"
- Threepio saying the word "and" before saying "do take good care of yourself."
- Han's line "Come on" after saying "Transport, this is Solo. Better take off, I can't get to you. I'll get her out on the Falcon"
- Threepio saying "There's no where to go." after "Oh, this is suicide"

I quite like some of the extra lines in ESB.

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Are they in the SE? If so, they're easy to lift.

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

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Gives me something to work on next then.

At least I don't have to worry about removing Jangoisms.

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Gives me something to work on next then.

At least I don't have to worry about removing Jangoisms.


or "Son of Skywalker" lines

Star Wars 1977-1983

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LeoneNut has a point. Nobody has ever put the 70mm mix of ESB on a disc. I know that the 70mm mix isn't available to us, but how hard would it be to re-create this mix, or something similar? Is all/most of the differences available? I don't know what all the differences are, but there has to be a list somewere. I know that some other differences are the voice on Hoth that says "the first transport is away" is a different actor, rumored to be Mark Hamill, and the now infamous "you were lucky to get out of there" to R2 on Dagobah instead of "You were lucky you don't taste very good" was from this mix. There were some other stuff that was from alternate takes as well. I don't know how much of the differences are actually available, though. Jambre Davar's Building Empire has quite a bit of stuff as well.
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Can sombody re-post the link to the site where all the minute differences between the different mixes are?

I am the BASF of the film community. I don’t make the films you watch. I make the films you watch better.

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You don't mean The Starkiller's Guide, do you? That only has the SW mono mix alternates, IIRC. If there's a similar site for all the mixes, I'd like to know.
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I found this list on Wikipedia. Of course, being from Wikipedia, it might not be completely accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases#The_Empire_Strikes_Back
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I read somewhere that the SE/2004 soundtrack is based on the 70mm soundtrack, so all the alternative sounds and dialogue are there.
It would be possible I think using the SE soundtrack, if you revert back to GOUT or PCM audio for scenes around additional scenes like the Wampa, the extra shot of Boba Fett's ship and Vader landing on his Star Destroyer, to smooth over the cracks.

Of course it wouldn't be 100% accurate, but would be pretty close I think.

Star Wars 1977-1983

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There's also the music edits to consider. For the transitions from Dagobah to the Imperial fleet after the cave scene and the X-wing rising from the swamp, the 70mm and SE versions use the music as composed (versions of the Imperial March), while the 35mm spliced in bits of the concert version instead. Also on Bespin in the carbon chamber, when the door shuts behind Luke, there is a loud gong crash in the score, which is followed by some quiet creepy music. For whatever reason the film-makers decided to remove the music from this scene; in the 70mm it cuts off right before the door closes, whereas the 35mm leaves the beginning of the gong audible. And when Boba Fett says "put Captain Solo in the cargo hold", the music runs as composed in the 70mm, going all the way to when the scene changes back to the carbon chamber, at which point it cuts off again. The 35mm version sounds very choppy indeed, and cuts off abruptly when Chewie begins firing at the departing Slave I.

I grew up with the 35mm version on vhs, so I prefer that mix for the most part--all the added lines in the 70mm sound like SE additions to me, even though I know now that they're authentic. But the music edits in the 35mm I find distasteful now I'm familiar with the music on its own. I am a music fan and dislike hearing this kind of hackjob applied to the score, particularly seeing as it wasn't necessary to keep in synch with the visuals. My personal preference would be for a combined version that for the most part uses the 35mm but goes to the 70mm to use the correct music cues. (OCPmovie tried to do this with the classic edition, and it worked mostly, but there are a few places where it obviously jumps from one to the other, which is unfortunate. Also he kept a few SE lines I would have preferred to not be there.) Of course, a straight recreation of the 70mm would be great as well--a combination of the '93 and '97 mixes would be the best way to accomplish this.
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hairy_hen thanks for the info

Fixing the music would prove beyond my capabilities, at the moment (still learning).
I noticed that the music in SW with Vader and two guards marching into Leia's cell, is muted slightly in the '93 mix and almost inaudible in the SE version. The mono mix plays the music fine.

Star Wars 1977-1983

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Belbucus' DC PCM synced to GOUT
now posting to alt.binaries.starwars


Archive: DC48 DVD.zip
Length Method Size Ratio Date Time CRC-32 Name
-------- ------ ------- ----- ---- ---- ------ ----
1395131276 Defl:N 1163562866 17% 09-23-06 09:16 71be2bb2 DC48 DVD.wav



FLAC fingerprint:
7577368a4492a12cc87da5212fb5250d

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
Belbucus' DC PCM synced to GOUT
now posting to alt.binaries.starwars


Any chance of getting that upped to rapidshare?

“I love Darth Editous and I’m not ashamed to admit it.” ~ADigitalMan