Originally posted by: Jumpman
Yes, Anakin did make the choice to be a Jedi. He has this romanticized view of being a Jedi, but Qui-Gon warned him of the hardships. He still chose. But, that doesn't change the fact that his Mother taught him a certain set of values, values that indirectly clash with the Jedi Way. Most of the those values deal with the caring of people. This is why I say previously that Anakin is loyal to people, not ideals. Anakin cares for people, but not people as a whole in the way the Jedi do.
The prime example is in Episode III at the beginning when one of the Clone fighters is asking for help and Anakin wants to go help him out. Obi-Wan states, "No, they're doing their job so we can do ours." The next shot shows Anakin pissed off about it. And when it comes time for Obi-Wan to about bite the dust, Anakin goes to his friend. Obi-Wan orders him to finish the missing and leave him but Anakin isn't having any of that.
Do you see where I'm getting at?
Yes, I see what you are getting at and I can accept the proposal of those ideas. The movies certainly didn’t communicate them directly, but if you believe they are there and if the movies are important to you in that sense, then I’m fine with that. For me, that’s way too far-fetched and contradicts other ethics taught in Star Wars.
First, the Jedi don’t care about individual people, but all people? That’s a hypocritical and impossible concept on the very surface. If you love no individual people in a personal sense, you can’t love anyone in a broader sense. And, even if the “people-as-a-whole” idea could work, the Jedi don’t even practice that. We see all sorts of situations where the Jedi are concerned about individual people. They make friends and value certain lives over other lives. Like Yoda’s “warmed” heart.
When Obiwan told Anakin to not help the Clone Troopers, that was simply a very smart move. Obi-Wan was focusing on the one person who was the most important to track down (for people in both a personal sense and an individual sense). And for Anakin to act all pissed at that decision simply shows how much of a close-minded jerk he is. Seriously, if he doesn’t want to be a freakin’ Jedi, and follow the orders of his superiors, then he should quit! And Obi-Wan’s order to leave those droids on his fighter and for Anakin to finish the mission was stupid. Obi-Wan was too important to the war effort for Anakin to let him die by some small bug-bots. That and the bug-bots weren’t that big of a threat for a Jedi to handle. In fact, Obi-Wan didn’t scold him for his actions and even thanked Anakin for all of the times he saved his life after the entire mission was over.
Originally posted by: Jumpman
This is why I say it's a constant back and forth between what he knows he must be and do as a Jedi and what he feels as just a human being. It's just a clash between what he is taught and what he's being taught, on top of the fact that he knows he's the Chosen One. He is disciplined, moreso in Episode III, but he has his moments outside of that...and that's mainly a cause of his beliefs in his abilities.
Yes, Anakin did make the choice to be a Jedi. He has this romanticized view of being a Jedi, but Qui-Gon warned him of the hardships. He still chose. But, that doesn't change the fact that his Mother taught him a certain set of values, values that indirectly clash with the Jedi Way. Most of the those values deal with the caring of people. This is why I say previously that Anakin is loyal to people, not ideals. Anakin cares for people, but not people as a whole in the way the Jedi do.
The prime example is in Episode III at the beginning when one of the Clone fighters is asking for help and Anakin wants to go help him out. Obi-Wan states, "No, they're doing their job so we can do ours." The next shot shows Anakin pissed off about it. And when it comes time for Obi-Wan to about bite the dust, Anakin goes to his friend. Obi-Wan orders him to finish the missing and leave him but Anakin isn't having any of that.
Do you see where I'm getting at?
Yes, I see what you are getting at and I can accept the proposal of those ideas. The movies certainly didn’t communicate them directly, but if you believe they are there and if the movies are important to you in that sense, then I’m fine with that. For me, that’s way too far-fetched and contradicts other ethics taught in Star Wars.
First, the Jedi don’t care about individual people, but all people? That’s a hypocritical and impossible concept on the very surface. If you love no individual people in a personal sense, you can’t love anyone in a broader sense. And, even if the “people-as-a-whole” idea could work, the Jedi don’t even practice that. We see all sorts of situations where the Jedi are concerned about individual people. They make friends and value certain lives over other lives. Like Yoda’s “warmed” heart.
When Obiwan told Anakin to not help the Clone Troopers, that was simply a very smart move. Obi-Wan was focusing on the one person who was the most important to track down (for people in both a personal sense and an individual sense). And for Anakin to act all pissed at that decision simply shows how much of a close-minded jerk he is. Seriously, if he doesn’t want to be a freakin’ Jedi, and follow the orders of his superiors, then he should quit! And Obi-Wan’s order to leave those droids on his fighter and for Anakin to finish the mission was stupid. Obi-Wan was too important to the war effort for Anakin to let him die by some small bug-bots. That and the bug-bots weren’t that big of a threat for a Jedi to handle. In fact, Obi-Wan didn’t scold him for his actions and even thanked Anakin for all of the times he saved his life after the entire mission was over.
Originally posted by: Jumpman
This is why I say it's a constant back and forth between what he knows he must be and do as a Jedi and what he feels as just a human being. It's just a clash between what he is taught and what he's being taught, on top of the fact that he knows he's the Chosen One. He is disciplined, moreso in Episode III, but he has his moments outside of that...and that's mainly a cause of his beliefs in his abilities.
Again you repeat all of the same character motivations, Jumpman, yet where did it ever seem as if I did not understand them? The way the Anakin of Episode II usually reacts to his motivations can only leave most people disgusted with his bad attitude. I totally get that Anakin from Episode II. The problem is that I also get the Anakin in Episode I, it is the fact that they are not the same person that annoys me. Based on the same motivations of Anakin that you describe, the Anakin from Episode I should have reacted very differently.
If a love for individual people is so important to Anakin, then he should optimistically care about them, even when they don’t do exactly what he would like them to do, correct? That’s how caring people normally act. They don’t whine and complain and constantly express frustrated skepticism about everything. The Anakin from episode I, who was totally adventurous, confident, and cheerfully hopeful would have never become so negative and power hungry in Episode II, just based upon the reasons you have outlined.
Otherwise, I can agree that Anakin has a few moments where he is likable in episode II, and a great deal of parts in the first half of episode III where he is likable, so I don’t disagree with you totally. The problem, for me, is all of the problems and that is what we should be discussing here.