the dynamic for an audience member is different for a first time viewer if they go into ANH knowing Luke and Leia are Vader's children. Are you saying that it works this way from a logical narrative standpoint but just isn't "beautiful" anymore?
From that standpoint the OT films aren’t beautiful anymore because their focus has been radically changed. Important drama and plot revelations are erased and become meaningless since the viewer gains nothing new at those points anymore.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicSure ANH worked on that level of simply good vs. evil, but in the context of the whole saga, it now has the added benefit of depth. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about how it doesn't work artistically or emotionally.
Well, in Star Wars, you aren’t supposed to think about Darth Vader as Luke’s father, or Leia as his sister. You can call these ideas “depth,” but I call them a needless distraction. “Episode IV” becomes the weakest film out of the series because nobody can focus on its strengths anymore. We’re thinking about a bunch of other shit that makes everyone lame. Darth Vader is a whiny loser and an illogical psychopath, et cetera. The coolness of its story is irrevocably destroyed.
Also, most of the artistic emotional strengths of the original trilogy rely upon the viewer experiencing its story fresh, without knowing certain key concepts ahead of time. For instance, who is the strange and ridiculous little green creature that leads Luke around in Empire? Or, “Oh my God, that monster, Darth Vader, says he’s Luke’s father? Is he lying?” Are you actually telling me that you place no importance on those immensely great dramatic moments? You’re more worried about Anakin than Luke? You believe the prequel trilogy is important enough to demolish some of the greatest plot developments in movie history?
Now to touch on conceptual problems in the prequel trilogy . . .
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicI agree he didn't -have- to make Jedi in their prime able to jump such amazing heights, but I don't see why it would be "bad" to have done so. The logic is that Luke isn't going to be quite as good as the Jedi we see jumping all over the place in the prequels. It also explains why their swordsmanship is superior as well. Are you saying this is a logic flaw or some kind of artistic flaw?
The insane jumps are a logically artistic flaw when trying to tie together the 6-episode saga. If we start with Luke, considering his youth, his natural strength at using the force, his intense physical training with Yoda, and then Yoda stating that he’s basically learned everything he needs in RotJ, it seems silly to suddenly have every lowly Jedi that comes along able to dwarf Luke’s jumps by a mile. It was simply done for sensationalistic reasons so Jedi could jump like they were in “The Matrix.” I prefer artistic subtlety, thank you. The super jumps add nothing of value to the series, and the fact that viewers have to figure them out based on the earlier films takes away some fun for them.
Anyways, this is a small problem that most people don’t notice right away, including myself, so I don’t want to waste too much time talking about it. There are more important problems to analyze from an artistic standpoint.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicFirst of all, if I was worried about "logical beauty" I would have given up at the concept of light sabers. Instead of stopping at "well lasers wouldn’t just stop at one end" I rolled along with it for the sake of enjoyment.
Nonsense. Lightsabers were always presented in a very logically beautiful way in the films. They were mysterious and magical weapons that somehow needed the force to work and, unlike what you claim, they were clearly different from the laser blasters in the film (please don’t make flippant points). All in all, lightsabers are a very simple and acceptable subject from a logical standpoint, and very enjoyable from a logical standpoint as well.
Now, if we were to have logically delved deeper into how light sabers supposedly worked in the films themselves and talked about plasma and shit like that, sure that might well have been an unsuccessful addition, artistically speaking. There’s no way for us to know though, since the films never went that route.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I think the more thought provoking the Force concept has become, the better it's gotten. There is something to be said about showing both sides to any given coin, which is what the scientific perspective does for the more mystical side of the Force. Everything about this "whole saga" is about showing different sides to the same things. In the prequels we have the "Good" establishment and the "Bad" rebels (separatists). In the classic trilogy we have the "Bad" establishment, and the "Good" rebels. The prequels start out with 2 Sith Lords in hiding waiting to take the galaxy back from the Jedi, while in the classic trilogy we have 2 Jedi in hiding waiting to take the galaxy back from the Sith. Even the Jedi and the Sith are similar in almost every way... but opposite. The beauty of the full saga together is like the beauty of a yin yang. To me this is much more meaningful than either side of the coin on it's own.
To me that's the beauty and meaning I find in the "whole saga".
That is an admirable element of the prequel trilogy’s story. I too thought that the parallels and opposites found in the films were an interesting path to take. The Phantom Menace used this concept the best. Unfortunately, even in that film, a lot of the elements were generic and boring. Midichlorians, as presented in TPM, are a third-rate science fiction concept. They add nothing enjoyable to the experience of the movie, except when they helped Qui-Gon Jinn to analyze Anakin. After that, the explanation of how they are the beings that actually connect a Jedi’s mind to the force raises too many pointless questions about the force that take you out of the experience. I mean, seriously, if the force is connected to everything, then it should be automatically connected to a Jedi’s mind as well. Why can’t a Jedi’s mind know the “will” of the force without mindless bacteria telling him first?
Anyways, the yin-yang concept was executed horribly in episodes II and III. One minute you’d have a concept be identical and then the next minute it would be opposite. That and the parallels were often so simple that they insulted the audience’s intelligence. Like Obi-Wan saying “I’ll never join you,” or Anakin and “Padme” professing their love to each other while captured. Anyone could have come invented those generic and predictable copies of the OT within a few seconds.
Anyways, with all of that now said, here we now reach the most important part of my post, Go-Mer. I look forward to your response regarding the following ideas. They express the heart of why I do not enjoy the prequel trilogy films. If you can at least understand my point of view here, then at least we have gotten somewhere.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Second, I really do enjoy figuring out ways apparent inconsistencies could make sense.
As do I. Yet, while I love spending the vast majority of my time on tough logical exercises, I do not like to do that in the middle of a film. A competent piece of art is supposed to focus the observer’s mind on the concepts its author intended it to communicate, and not distract the audience with needless complications or outright contradictions. In a film, that primary, communicated focus is usually the film’s story and all of the other neat concepts that are contained within a film hang off of that thread.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonicso what are the logical inconsistencies you would have to look over to enjoy this as much as I do?
Every single, logical mess we’ve had to discuss in thread so far is what lessens my enjoyment of the prequel trilogy. Much of what CO, Scruffy, and others have mentioned for instance. These issues detract from the enjoyment of the films because they’re so convoluted, messy, and incomplete. Sure, you can explain them if you twist your reasoning around enough times, but that doesn’t make the films into good art. So much of what happens in the prequel trilogy’s story occurs for stupid reasons.
Good art is capable of standing on its own. You accept what it offers without reservation because its artistic focus is well crafted. If that artistic concept is filled with an inordinate amount of annoying questions, there is less enjoyment on the part of an observer.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicI'm not sure I understand, you mean you are looking for a reason for Anakin to have slaughtered the younglings?
Yes. Every time I watch
Revenge of the Sith I try to grasp hold of a simple reason for this. Either Anakin is a complete, psychotic monster, concerned with his own pathetically little fears, or the Force operates in the most contradictory and stupid ways imaginable. (Maybe it’s a mixture of both, which would be even more stupid.) Either way, the fact that I’m forced to wonder so much about his crucial point means that the movie’s story, as a piece of art, is easily substandard. The entire “saga” falls apart at this point for me as well.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicHere is a quote from Lucas I saved from a while back about how Anakin turns to the dark side:
Lucas: The message is you can't possess things. You can't hold on to them. You have to accept change. You have to accept the fact that things transition. And so, as you try to hold on to things or you become afraid of -- that you're going to lose things, then you begin to crave the power to control those things. And then, you start to become greedy and then you turn into a bad person.
To me it's the reasons Anakin falls to the dark side. I'm no film scholar, but Lucas starts out with an almost overly virtuous Anakin in TPM, and shows how his inability to cope with the prospect of change ended up being his undoing.
Anakin: But I don't want things to change.
Shmi: But you can't stop the change, any more than you can stop the suns from setting.
It's set up by his fear of losing his mother, ratcheted up a notch with his inability to save his mother from death, and delivered by his choice to turn to the dark side in an attempt to save Padme.
