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The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga" — Page 5

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Hey, as I've already stated, I enjoy the prequels as a whole. I watch them. They're entertaining. I enjoy a look at the Star Wars world before "the dark times." I find the story interesting. But, as the old saying goes, the devil is in the details, and it's the details that the prequels totally drop the ball on. And there are so many of them that they stand out. So, yes, I find it perfectly legitimate to complain about the details. Like I said, if a scene makes me laugh at the deaths of children (and not just me, but the two other people I was in the theatre with as well), then there is something wrong with that scene. And it's the details...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Jumpman
Can I ask a serious question?

Were you guys this picky when it came to The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi back in the day?

I was five when Jedi came out so I wasn't "hip" to Star Wars yet, eventhough I liked watching them.


I was 5 when SW came out in '77 and absolutely love it and that hasn't changed. At 8 years old, I did not love ESB in 1980, too dark for me, but I loved ROTJ at 11 years old in 1983. I think Lucas saw that alot of kids like me were turned off at the adult & dark tone of ESB, and I think he made a calculated choice that any future SW movies were not going to be like ESB.

Lucas was at a crossroads after ESB, the movie didn't gross nearly as much as SW, so he had to look at the masses or a particular audience, and he went for the masses, and as I said, I loved ROTJ at 11 years old, but quality rears its ugly head as you get older and wiser, and I believe alot of young kids who like the PT movies are going to look at them in 15-20 years like we did with the OT years later and re-evaluate the movies, just like any movie.

Sure kids are not going to go on the internet and talk about the stuff we do, kids are kids, but that doesn't mean you cater to them. TPM caters to kids, ANH doesn't, and that is what Lucas missed after ESB. You can make a serious movie with a serious story and serious themes, and not need certain characters to cater to kids. There are so many movies I loved growing up that didn't cater to kids one bit, but I could still enjoy them just as much: Superman movies, Back to the Future, Indiana Jones, all those movies were made for teenagers that adults can enjoy and kids too, and all of those movies have aged well cause they don't Ewoks & Gungans polluting the movie, that you look on 20 years later and say, WTF?

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CO,

Excellent points. Episode I is the biggest culprit but it still works. I don't really think Episodes II and III cater to kids at all. I mean, in tone, those two films together are a bit more serious than Episodes V and VI. But, again, that has alot to do with the fact that good guys get their asses handed to them at the end of Episode III.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I understand you guys have all been through this all before at length, but I am still suprised to see how many of you have such a closed mind on this matter.

It has nothing to do with having a closed mind. Art is subjective- you either enjoy it or you don't. I didn't enjoy the prequels, even though I wanted to. If you told me tomorrow that I would never be able to watch the PT again, I wouldn't care because I have no desire to ever see any of them again. But if you told me I would never be allowed to watch the OOT again, I would be devastated.

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So your mind is open to the possibility that you will never change your mind?
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

Excellent points. Episode I is the biggest culprit but it still works. I don't really think Episodes II and III cater to kids at all. I mean, in tone, those two films together are a bit more serious than Episodes V and VI. But, again, that has alot to do with the fact that good guys get their asses handed to them at the end of Episode III.



It isn't necessarily the story that determines the whether a movie is dark or not, cause honestly AOTC is the darkest in a sense that Palpatines plan is right in front of ObiWans face on Kamino, and he doesn't know it. The one great scene I love in the PT is ObiWan staring at the Clones and the Empire music plays louder and louder.

It is very hard to explain, but Episode II & III still cater to kids, much less of a level than TPM, but it still does. If you notice Jumpman, ANH & ESB have mostly humans throughout the movies, and very little aliens. ANH only has aliens with the Jawas, Sandpeople, and then the Cantina bar which is purposely done by Lucas to show all the hive and scum, but after that Humans dominate the movie. There is something more realistic in drama and dialogue when it comes from a human, it just feel more real.

ESB is the same, other than Yoda, and he was done so well by Frank Oz, it almost defies logic how fuckin real that puppet is! But you still have most of the movies, with the exception of the bounty hunters as humans: all the men on Vaders Star Destroyer, Lando and all the civilians on Cloud City.

Then jump to ROTJ, and it is alien-fest. Now if you do an alien or creature right like Yoda or Jabba, it can come as cool as hell, and gives that richness to the movies. But ROTJ is littered with so many aliens in jabbas palace, and then you have the Ewoks, and then you even have aliens on the rebellion now! Though the guy with the big eye who says, "Its a trap!" is pretty cool.

Then you go to the PT and it is alien/creature fest gone wild. The PT movies have too many damn aliens, and not enough humans to keep that seriousness and drama. Dex at the diner is a joke, The Trade Federation guys in TPM are just not cool, General Grevious is lame, but Count Dooku is my favorite villain in the PT, cause he is human and just comes off as believable as he is tempting Kenobi in AOTC.

As I said when you make an alien/creature in SW, it is hit or miss, and the PT & ROTJ are populated by too many misses that make the movies laughable in some parts, that is the difference with ANH & ESB where they are in the movies on a much minor scale.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
So your mind is open to the possibility that you will never change your mind?

What are you talking about? Change my mind about what? I just said that art is subjective- you either like it or you don't. I never had to convince myself that the OOT are great films- I only had to see them each one time to love them. I don't need to try to convince myself to like movies I don't find entertaining, because that's impossible. I saw TPM twice, AOTC once and ROTS once. They had their chance to grab me- they blew it.

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CO,

Interesting points. I chalk this up to Lucas trying to make the Star Wars universe more vast than what we've previously seen because, we are in the golden age of the Republic where the interactions of all the civilizations is normal.

But, I do see where you're coming from. The Kaminoans are cool as hell. The Trade Federation is a joke, but I think that's the point. Dex, I can go back and forth on. I mean, it's cool to see Obi-Wan have a hint of a life outside the Jedi Order, yet at the same time, I wanted Obi-Wan to get the info quicker to move the story quicker. (The way Episode II is edited still pisses me off. I'll never let Burtt off the hook for how that film is put together, eventhough it's my 3rd favorite Star Wars film.) I'm actually a Jar Jar guy but I can understand everyone's problems with him. I like Grevious only because he's a plot point for the Clone Wars aspect of the story. But yes, the humans are always the best.

Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman

I mean, if you strip away everything in Episode I, it's really about Palpatine's machinations to get to the highest office in the Republic.


If you strip away everything in Episode I, there's nothing left. You're selectively stripping away parts that don't support your thesis without explaining why those parts are without value.

IMHO, Episode I did nothing that couldn't have been accomplished in Episode II. Introduce the main characters? AotC did that pretty well, and a rewrite would make it perfect. Establish Palpatine as a powerful but unassuming political operator? Check. Introduce the Sith and their ancient grudge? Check. Set up the Clone Wars? Check. The whole PT feels like backstory to the OT, but TPM is backstory to backstory.

Ca. 1976, George Lucas showed his notebook of ideas for The Star Wars to Gary Kurtz, and Kurtz told him to pick the most interesting "episode" out of the narrative instead of telling the story from the beginning. He needed another Gary Kurtz to help him pick which parts of his PT notes to commit to film/video.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Scruffy,

It was a figure of speech. Give me a break....

And why is it Gary Kurtz gets all the credit for Star Wars instead of the creator? I mean, this is the guy who ballooned the Episode V budget and thought that he was the real force behind Star Wars.

I mean, what has he done since then if he's so great and was the real force behind Star Wars?
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman


Interesting points. I chalk this up to Lucas trying to make the Star Wars universe more vast than what we've previously seen because, we are in the golden age of the Republic where the interactions of all the civilizations is normal.


The golden age? Lucas has always described the end period of the Republic as a period of balkanization and unresponsive government. He even got a little of that into the PT. Even within the context of myth, the golden age predates the republic, because it implies rule by a benevolent god.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Scruffy,

Between Naboo, Coruscant, and the Jedi Order, you get a sense of the Great Republic in Episode I and Episode II, even if its starting to crumble in Episode II.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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First, please, this thread is for precise reasoning about the prequel trilogy from an artistic standpoint and nothing else. Many of you, like CO, have been doing this, but then again, some of you have clearly not. Sure, if you want to state your unsupported opinions, you can do so, but I would ask that you don't get into meaningless screaming matches over them (it serves nothing). Go-Mer, this means you. Please, stop responding to people who say nothing apart from how they hate the prequels. That’s their opinion. If you find what they say offensive, it is better to just ignore it.


Now, Go-Mer, you're a very interesting person. You seem exactly like the side of myself that seeks to be open and enjoy whatever a given author may have intend with his art, and yet you come to conclusions that are very different from mine. When reading your opinions, it seems like I can only come to the same conclusions if I dismiss logical cohesion and simplicity in art as something unimportant. In other words, I believe you are strongly moved by the emotional scenes portrayed in the prequel trilogy, as I tried to be many times, but when it comes to a logical context or foundation for those scenes you're willing to accept quite a lot of useless nonsense. Now, that's either because you're a very emotionally oriented person and logical beauty is unimportant to you, or you really, really, really enjoy thinking about far-fetched and convoluted/confusing logic (perhaps therein lies the logical beauty for you).

When I watch a movie and look for logical beauty within it, I am looking for a good story or ethical/philosophical meanings, not ways to remove seeming contradictions. For instance, the killing of “younglings” seems dramatic and horrible for me, until of course I try and understand a logical context for why on earth it is happening at all. Then my mind immediately starts to get sick of the whole thing. The emotional beauty disappears.


Sure, you guys can claim to CO that the original trilogy can work as a continuation of the "Anakin" saga. That all three of the movies are actually about a pair of twins working to "resurrect" their father from the opening scene in Star Wars to the closing scene in Jedi (as George Lucas tries to now claim), and you can jump through a million logical hoops to prove how this might work as the focus of the films as well. But where is the remaining beauty after you have tortured the films in this way?

Darth Vader was NEVER originally intended to be Anakin Skywalker or Luke’s real father until the preproduction of Empire Strikes Back. This is historical fact. Likewise, Princess Leia was NEVER originally intended to be Luke’s sister until George Lucas decided to go that route when writing the story for Return of the Jedi. This is historical fact. Therefore, to pretend that elements from the earlier movies somehow foreshadow these ideas is pretending only.

The original trilogy is about Luke Skywalker. It is about giving form to classic themes from our world’s mythology. Darth Vader was originally just a villain in this context. To force the “saga” of Anakin as the supposedly “true” focus of the film does not work in any artistic way whatsoever. It doesn’t even emotionally work since all of the emotional elements from the original Star Wars have nothing to do with Darth Vader being anything more than the totally awesome villain.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Midichlorians

Lucas talks about how he always intended there to be this more scientific side to the Force, but that he just didn't get into that much in the classic trilogy (I think I am getting this from the commentary on the TPM DVD). If you read the ANH novel (even before the SE's came around) there is a part where Obi-Wan talks to Luke about how the Old Republic tried to define the Force with science, but that they never quite could. That perhaps the Force is just as much magic as it is science. Not more magic than science but just as much. Add to that the way Luke was strong in the Force because he was the biological son of a powerful Jedi and it's easy to see what Lucas is talking about with regards to the "science" of the Force even back then. So all this stuff about how Lucas took away the mysticism and replaced it with science isn't entirely accurate.

Now the concept of Midichlorians themselves is fascinating to me. Lucas loosely based them on our real world equivalent: Mitochondria. Just like Midichlorians, Mitochondria are a microscopic life form that lives in every living cell here on Earth. Scientists theorize that they are the reason life exists in the first place and that without them, we would have no knowledge of the Force (well okay maybe not that last part but these two concepts really are that close).

The really fascinating thing about them is that when scientists started studying Mitochondria, a lot of religious people were saying we shouldn't be studying them. That finding out the source of life could stand to disprove God himself. Just as many Star Wars fans were insisting that the introduction of Midichlorians could stand to de-mystify the Force concept.

In reality neither do any such thing. Neither the study of Mitochondria, or the introduction of the Midichlorian concept "explain" God or the "Force" respectively. They both merely add a whole new layer of questions on top of the ones we already had.

Some fans act like the Midichlorians fly in the face of everything we know about the Force in the classic trilogy.

For example, some people say if Midichlorians are only in living things, then how could the Force be in the rock as Yoda says in Empire? The answer is that Midichlorians aren't the Force itself; they are merely antennae which allow 2 way communication between living things and the Force.

Other people say that Midichlorians suddenly make the Force biological, but as I explained earlier, it was always something passed down from one generation to the next as exampled by Luke being strong in the Force because he's related to Anakin. Also the very concept that they would be able to make the Jedi "all but extinct" shows that Force sensitivity would be something that is genetic rather than purely spontaneous.

I could go on and on like this aimlessly, but I want to hear your questions if you have any to point me in a more meaningful direction for you.

For those of you who really didn't like the Midichlorians, please bring up concerns I have yet to address.


Wow, that is quite the lengthy explanation, but it totally missed the point unfortunately. I guess I should have been clearer with my question. I did not ask for a logical way in which the Midichlorians can function with a traditional idea of the force. I had already figured out that entire train of thought on my own after my very first viewing of the Phantom Menace.

What I was actually asking about the artistic method behind the film. You were supposed to explain why any of that stuff you typed up about midichlorians should actually matter to anyone. In what way are any of the Star Wars movies enhanced by talking about Midichlorians? To me it served no purpose other than to waste time in the movie and make the force into an overly confusing subject. Normally, in aesthetics, you have simplicity tying together a number of complex concepts, yet George’s introduction of the midiclorians actually did the exact opposite.


Same thing goes for the mountainous Jedi jumping found in the prequels. Even the longest jump that Luke made in the original trilogy does not compare to what occurred in the prequel films. So, I ask, what was the point? What was added to Star Wars by introducing something so extreme and inharmonious? Just to have something “new”? Sorry, that explanation is bullshit. Old concepts can be just as compelling as new ones and more moderate, force-jumps would have been just as dramatic. Though, this isn’t really a problem when analyzed as a film by film basis. It is simply a “saga” problem from my point of view.

Also, Go-Mer, I would like you to answer the last question from my first post if you can. Thank you.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I don't either me or Go-Mer stated that the twins are working to "resurrect" their father, although that does become Luke's focus in Episode VI.

Yes, the Original Trilogy is Luke's story but looking at them numerically, it does in the end come back to Anakin. It is the Skywalker story with Anakin and Luke as the figure heads, with Anakin having a bit more emphasis once we get to the end of it all. I don't think Go-Mer stated that the Original Trilogy isn't about Luke Skywalker.

Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman
CO,

Interesting points. I chalk this up to Lucas trying to make the Star Wars universe more vast than what we've previously seen because, we are in the golden age of the Republic where the interactions of all the civilizations is normal.

But, I do see where you're coming from. The Kaminoans are cool as hell. The Trade Federation is a joke, but I think that's the point. Dex, I can go back and forth on. I mean, it's cool to see Obi-Wan have a hint of a life outside the Jedi Order, yet at the same time, I wanted Obi-Wan to get the info quicker to move the story quicker. (The way Episode II is edited still pisses me off. I'll never let Burtt off the hook for how that film is put together, eventhough it's my 3rd favorite Star Wars film.) I'm actually a Jar Jar guy but I can understand everyone's problems with him. I like Grevious only because he's a plot point for the Clone Wars aspect of the story. But yes, the humans are always the best.



But Lucas started seeing aliens as the be all end all of characters. The one thing that annoys me is Mace Windu is the only human on the Jedi council other than Kenobi & Anakin. It makes takes away from the Jedi having too many aliens, cause it makes it seem like most humans don't have those powers. I would have liked to see a 50/50 split of council members of humans/aliens.

Just think of ESB with all aliens on Vader star destroyer? Just think of Vader choking some goofy alien, it wouldn't have that same effect. Just think of all the officers on the death star and they were all aliens like the Trade Federation members on Mustafar, it is like night and day.

In the OT, or ANH & ESB, Lucas used aliens just enough in minor roles, to make the galaxy diverse like you said, but kept it realistic with mostly humans, and that adds to the more serious tone of the first two films. The PT is so loaded with aliens, they just come off as laughable sometimes, cause they usually either look goofy or have some goofy accent.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
And, as an affectionate pet name, [youngling] sounds really weird when used in the context of murder and destruction. It'd be like someone mourning, "Oh no, they killed Go-Mer-poo!"


lol, good point. Youngling I could overlook the goofiness of because its supposed to be fantasy. More hilarious, however, was the ridiculous scene where Obiwan watched Anakin bowing before the Emperor on the Jedi tv screen.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Jumpman
I don't either me or Go-Mer stated that the twins are working to "resurrect" their father, although that does become Luke's focus in Episode VI.

Yes, the Original Trilogy is Luke's story but looking at them numerically, it does in the end come back to Anakin. It is the Skywalker story with Anakin and Luke as the figure heads, with Anakin having a bit more emphasis once we get to the end of it all. I don't think Go-Mer stated that the Original Trilogy isn't about Luke Skywalker.



Jumpman, that is huge reason why I dont love the saga 1-6, and that has nothing to do with the quality of the films. I don't like that the saga is about Anakin now, it just doesn't grab me. Now Lucas has every right to write the story that way, and I have every right to reject it.

It would be like Zemeckis shooting Back to the Future prequels about the young life of Doc Brown, and then saying the Back to the Future saga 1-6 is about Doc Brown. I wouldn't like it, even though it wasn't filmed! I love the story of Marty McFly, and those films were written about him, and Doc Brown was just his cohort for 3 movies, trying to guide him back to 1985.

My point is that Lucas chose to make the story about Anakin, and that was a huge risk, cause some people just arent' interested in a character like that, some fans love to root for the good guy. I love Rocky more than Raging Bull, even though they are both classics, but Rocky is as Apple Pie as movies come.
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CO,

I would totally agree with you if the human story was lost. Yes, the details matter and having aliens occupying your universe more than humans does make it difficult. But, he still focuses on the humans at the end of it all and for me, that's all that matter.

I'm not saying you're wrong. It's just that it doesn't bother me as it seems to bother you.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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CO,

"My point is that Lucas chose to make the story about Anakin, and that was a huge risk, cause some people just arent' interested in a character like that, some fans love to root for the good guy. I love Rocky more than Raging Bull, even though they are both classics, but Rocky is as Apple Pie as movies come."

Totally agree. I guess the reason I have no problem with the story of the Prequels was because I always preferred the character of Darth Vader and Obi-Wan more than Han, Luke, and Leia. And once we found out that Vader was Luke's father, I was more focused on Vader, even as a kid, than Luke.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman
I don't either me or Go-Mer stated that the twins are working to "resurrect" their father, although that does become Luke's focus in Episode VI.

Yes, but, as I said, George Lucas has actually claimed that. And no, that is not Luke's goal in Jedi. Luke sought to appeal to Darth Vader's good side, not "resurrect" Vader, which is an absolutely silly concept to force onto Return of the Jedi. Serously, perhaps some of you can explain how Vader is supposedly "resurrected" for me, I'd love to hear your ideas.


Originally posted by: Jumpman
Yes, the Original Trilogy is Luke's story but looking at them numerically, it does in the end come back to Anakin. It is the Skywalker story with Anakin and Luke as the figure heads, with Anakin having a bit more emphasis once we get to the end of it all.


Anakin does not have the greater emphasis at the end of the original trilogy. Luke has the greatest focus at the end. At the highest climax of the film he succeeds in reaching out to Darth Vader by taking a stand. That was his great accomplishment. All Darth Vader did was overcome the dark side of the force and finally do the right thing. Luke was the hero and the focus until the end. It was Luke we cared about, it was Luke who we wanted to see triumphant, and it was Luke who we were happy to see alive in the end. He is the hero of the OT saga. Luke is the primary focus from start to finish.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by:Jumpman

Totally agree. I guess the reason I have no problem with the story of the Prequels was because I always preferred the character of Darth Vader and Obi-Wan more than Han, Luke, and Leia. And once we found out that Vader was Luke's father, I was more focused on Vader, even as a kid, than Luke.


That is the great divide, and neither of us is wrong, but the problem is Lucas is saying the saga is about the character you prefer now. Now you and I aren't tainted cause we saw the movies in their order, so after seeing the story evolve, you love the Darth Vader story and love the saga. After I see the story evolve, I like the story of Luke, Leia, and Han, and I love the OT.

The problem is future generations who see the saga 1-6 won't see it the way we did. In a sense, you and I being tainted and seeing it 4-6, 1-3 was the best thing cause we didn't see any movies out of context. Future fans are going to ingraded that the story is of Anakin Skywalker, and I guarantee ANH will pop up as many of the new fans least favorite, when it was the movie that started it all, and is probably the most loved by the masses.

Kinda ironic?

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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
So your mind is open to the possibility that you will never change your mind?


This whole line of questioning is suspicious. Either you're trying to make yourself look good -


"MY mind is open and you can't see the value in the PT because of your closed mind"


- or you're championing a totally uncritical, relativistic attitude toward the arts.


"You know, if you just look past bad dialogue, bad acting, and convoluted situations, American Pie II was as good as any comedy ever".


PT gushers have some pretty interesting methods (read: myths) for defending the PT. I feel kind of stupid for critiquing the PT, since a lot of it was pretty good and it was new Star Wars cinema, but I admit that I get a little annoyed at those PT myths.

MYTH: Both the PT and OT featured bad acting, so how can you criticize the PT for its bad acting?
FACT: New York City and San Jose, California are major American cities. That doesn't mean they are comparable cities (no offense, San Jose). What I'm getting at is that there are degrees. San Jose is the 10th largest city in America - population 950,000 plus. NYC? Over 8 million. See what I'm saying?

MYTH: Your mind is not open.
FACT: Casting aspersions at critics doesn't make the flaws go away. If I contend that the following line of dialogue is poor -

MACE
You know, Your Highness, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He wouldn't assassinate anyone, it is not in his character. (emphasis mine)

- you can call me every name in the book, but let's face it. "You know" is lazy, dime-store exposition. (This is the part where you give me the "from your own point of view" speech...speaking of which)

ANAKIN
From my point of view, the Jedi are evil! (emphasis mine)

(In the middle of a death match, Anakin needs to elaborate to Obi-Wan that this is his own perspective!? I think Obi-Wan figured out where Anakin stood on this issue when he watched the temple security hologram, or when Anakin came after him with both barrels. Anyway, more myth-busting)

MYTH: You complain that the PT is an effects showcase, aren't effects what drew us into the OT in the first place?
FACT: Many of these myths sound good because there is a good deal of truth in them. Of course the effects drew us into the OT. The thing is, it kept our attention through characters we genuinely cared for. The lasting memories I have of the OT come from the drama. Unfortunately, most of the lasting memories of the PT I have come from the eye candy. There are exceptions - one of the best lines in all the Saga comes from Obi-Wan in ROTS: "My allegiance is to the Republic - to DEMOCRACY!" The anger, sorrow, and despair in that line is top shelf. I was genuinely moved, and it's just a shame there wasn't more of that in the PT.
George Lucas was proud of the fact that in ROTJ, they built an elaborate set for Jabba's Sail Barge without giving the audience a tour of the thing (I'm looking at you, Star Trek: The Motion Picture!). He didn't care for filmmaking which "showed off" all the work they did; he didn't want the set to dominate the picture. Then, in 1999, he gave a CGI character a major role in a Star Wars movie. How soon they forget.

MYTH: That (Greedo shoots, midichlorians, Jar-Jar, NOOOOOOOOO!, fill-in-the-blank) was part of Lucas' Ultimate Artistic Vision(TM) all along.
FACT: (1) Bullshit. Just because he's the one with access to his archives - we're supposed to take him at his word that _________ was in the hopper this whole time? Lucas has lied about many other things - why am I supposed to believe this assertion?
FACT: (2) Even if it is true, THERE IS A GOOD REASON HE DIDN'T USE THAT STUFF BACK WHEN HE HAD HIS YOUTHFUL EDGE. Age and wealth have changed him, like it does everyone. It's patently obvious to most that the OT didn't suffer artistically for those omissions.

MYTH: Lucas is a great auteur.
FACT: Yeah, what did John Williams, Ben Burtt, and ILM ever bring to the Star Wars Saga? Because of the collaborative nature of film, the whole idea of the auteur filmmaker is a little suspect to begin with; Star Wars films in particular require a lot of manpower. I don't dispute that the bulk of the credit or blame lies with Lucas, but Uncle George's lapdogs seem to think the Saga is all George. The most devoted PT fans ought to scoff at the idea of Lucas=Kurosawa.

MYTH: OT fans are "fanboys".
FACT: "Fanboy" is to Star Wars fan community what "Communist" is American Politics, 1955. Whenever the word "fanboy" brings to mind the segment of fans you dislike the most, it's long past time to retire the word. It has no denotation whatsoever.

I appreciate PT defenders that don't resort to Killing The Messenger or Comparing Rocks To Boulders. Refute the assertion, please - don't try to hide it in the OT or create a diversion.

And my mind is as open as my biases will allow - just the same as you, thanks.

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CO,

Yeah, it's going to be ironic. And yes, Episode IV will stick out but at least it gets the storyline somewhat back on track when Episode V arrives.

It is going to be interesting with the new generation of kids. I will tell my kids (when me and the wife have them) about the history of Star Wars but I'm not going to lie to you...I'm going to show them in numerical order first just to see how they respond to it. I mean, that's when we'll really know if Lucas is right.

I'm a Lucas guy who also realizes that he talks out the side of his mouth ever now and again. But, instead of saying the Saga is about Anakin, I wish he would've just stated that the Saga is about "the Skywalker family." With that, I think people would be okay with it. And what's funny about that is that Rick McCallum sees it that way and Lucas really doesn't.

Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman
Scruffy,

Between Naboo, Coruscant, and the Jedi Order, you get a sense of the Great Republic in Episode I and Episode II, even if its starting to crumble in Episode II.


Naboo had a divided population and was under siege with little or no official relief from the Republic, Coruscant was rife with corruption and incompetence, Tatooine was run by criminals and didn't even implement Republican laws ... this is all in accordance with Lucas's original ideas about the Republic falling apart toward the end. I don't know why you're trying to tear down one of the ideas he stuck to and implemented with some success. If California besieged Nevada while Washington debated tax rates and the mafia reestablished slavery in Alabama, would you call it "the Golden Age of the United States?" The Republic is clearly a failing state from the beginning of TPM, there's no other way to look at it.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Jumpman

I'm a Lucas guy who also realizes that he talks out the side of his mouth ever now and again. But, instead of saying the Saga is about Anakin, I wish he would've just stated that the Saga is about "the Skywalker family." With that, I think people would be okay with it. And what's funny about that is that Rick McCallum sees it that way and Lucas really doesn't.



But Lucas is obsessed with Vader/Anakin, and that is why he continues this tragedy of Anakin line. What Lucas misses is that fans like me love Vader, but sometimes knowing too much about a character actually hurts the character. Sometimes less is more, and that is huge downside to the PT. It is just like anything, the more you know about something, there is more of chance you may not like it.

Lucas thinks cause fans like me loved Vader in '77, that he would make the saga about him, and that is where he miscalculated for this fan. I think Darth Vader is the coolest bad guy in the history of movies, even cooler then Hanibal Lector, but hence the word bad guy.

I honestly think Lucas went Vader crazy with SW movies, and that is why I will never love any of them as much as ANH, cause that was the least Vader-like movie of the 6, and that is why for those who see it 1-6, it will probably be their least favorite.

Now I still love the OT because even though Lucas went Vader crazy, he still was secondary to Lukes story, so I can still enjoy the overall themes of 4-6. Lucas could have easily chose to focus the PT on the macro events as the major story and the characters of Anakin, Padme, and Kenobi be just essential to the plot to get us to Episode IV. There would be no need for Jake Lloyd, you could essentially start the PT at the beginning of AOTC. Regardless of the quality, if Lucas did it that way, and forgot about the Anakin Skywalker character arc, I think I would be a 1-6 fan, cause I would watch the PT for the macro story, and follow the plot to enjoy the movies, then watch the OT for the personal story, and follow the characters to enjoy the movies. Then again, what can you do?