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What did the Prequel Trilogy need? — Page 7

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I disagree with the charge that it would shrink the SW universe. The characters were created to be our companions through the story. I think that, when considering how to tell the story before ANH, it makes sense to keep that element in place. It has been said many times around the forum that the Luca$h PT just doesn't feel like SW. I think that is partly due to the poor use of the droids. Sure, it provides a few headaches when trying to retro-fit a PT to SW '77, but it is by no means the only one. And I am a long way from declaring it impossible.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I am certainly planning to write my PT once I've got all these ideas straightened out. But hey, if you're inspired, why not write one of your own? Go for it!

Actually a couple of years ago, caught up in the Episode III hype, a friend and I set out to rewrite the saga as a trilogy of trilogies (as per the original outline). One major alteration to the saga as we know it was we decided to make ESB the conclusion of the second trilogy, making it the new Episode VI. Of course this left us in a tough spot as to what to do with Episode V. One of these days we'll probably pull it out again (we didn't make that much progress), but these things are time consuming if you want to do them right. He's a big "Lord of the Rings" fan so LotR had a significant influence on out ideas as well.

As for the droids, they should definitely be there. Memory wipes seem to convenient though; if they were a necessity, I'd say give one to 3PO but leave Artoo's intact.
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Interesting! I've heard it said before that, when the trilogy of trilogies was still talked about by Luca$h, that we weren't supposed to meet the Emperor until episode 9. Was that your plan too?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I disagree with the charge that it would shrink the SW universe. The characters were created to be our companions through the story.


I never got that impression. C3PO and R2D2 always seemed like like the little guys of the stories to me. They had obscure lives in the past, they had probably had their minds wiped multiple times, and they were easy to sympathize with in terms of the fact that they had no control over what they did. I'm sure they witnessed a number of interesting events, but those events were separate from the main characters of the PT in my mind.

The PT did make poor use of droids, but that doesn't mean it needed to interject the original duo to get that working. Invent new droids if anything.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Aside from the idea that I had, there is no way to put the droids in the PT without giving them some kind of a connection to the characters, which means they had connections to the characters from both sets of movies, which is just a bit of a stretch and almost always forced. And we get things like 3PO being built by Anakin in order to establish that forced connection. And then there's Boba Fett and the Stormtroopers. Yoda and Chewbacca. Anakin and Greedo (thankfully cut). He dropped the ball every time he tried to make connections to the OT, and it's because none of it made any damned sense! He makes the claim that you can't just drop a character into a story for no reason at all, but that's what he seemed intent on doing. Ben, Anakin, Palpatine, Owen, Beru, and Yoda are really the only established characters who had any business being in the prequels the way they ended up being written.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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What did the PT need?

Three words:

Binary Load Lifters.
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The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Obi-Wan's unfamiliarity with the droids, despite my involving them all in a PT, can be explained by just the thing that Tiptup mentioned:

Originally posted by: Tiptup
Obiwan never struck me as a guy who would have ever been close friends with droids. Any droids. He's just too amazing for that.


Obi-Wan just doesn't come across the droids much. It's as simple as that. You don't need to establish any more than that to maintain the integrity of SW '77. If we run with the idea that Jedi are celibate, monk-like people, leading simple lives of meditation and training with no accumulation of possessions, then it is unlikely that Obi-Wan or Anakin would regard them as any more than luxury objects. If the droids were to become in some way thrown together with Padme that would bring them into the story we're concerned with.

That's an interesting thought - why couldn't Padme be the central character of the PT? Female characters are rather poorly done in the Luca$h PT. Maybe we should put a strong, rounded Padme centre-stage in the PT? Only thing is, that name gets annoying even over the course of one film, let alone three and would be unbearable through three books, probably! I think that would have to go...

What do people think of shaking things up a bit and putting Luke's Mum centre stage for the PT?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: Sluggo
What did the PT need?

Three words:

Binary Load Lifters.


That's it! Threepio should be put to work programming Binary Load Lifters on the Tantive IV!!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Ben, Anakin, Palpatine, Owen, Beru, and Yoda are really the only established characters who had any business being in the prequels the way they ended up being written.

That's exactly where I'm coming from on this, though! Now, I know it may not be the case , but I believe that I can write a better PT than the Luca$h version. What I want from the PT is something which fits together stylistically with SW '77, has a good story with a few surprises and shows us the background of the SW '77 story and characters.

Originally posted by: Tiptup
C3PO and R2D2 always seemed like like the little guys of the stories to me. They had obscure lives in the past, they had probably had their minds wiped multiple times, and they were easy to sympathize with in terms of the fact that they had no control over what they did.


That's exactly what makes them the perfect companions! We, like the droids, are not in control of the story that unfolds. We are observers. They are characters with which it is easy for us to identify and they provide a ready source of humour with which to leaven the drama and action around them. They are pivotal characters in SW '77 in terms of the structure and style and were included for very good reasons. This is what makes them, in my opinion, indispensable to a PT that is to have the same feel as SW '77.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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That's why I think you should go with my idea about having them around in their own story but never having them with the main characters but as outside observers to the main events of the movies. Therefore, they serve the same function you want, but it gets rid of the plausibility of them always being connected to the same group of people.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Interesting! I've heard it said before that, when the trilogy of trilogies was still talked about by Luca$h, that we weren't supposed to meet the Emperor until episode 9. Was that your plan too?

Yes, we were going back to the original direction of the saga pre-RotJ. Luke and Leia would not be brother and sister, and the final confrontation (centered around Coruscant) would take place in Episode IX. We would meet Palpatine in Episode I, but Luke would not face him until IX. A big idea I wanted to use in Episode III was that Anakin, seeking to become the most powerful Jedi ever, tries to tap into the power of the Kyber Crystal (on Naboo), but corrupts it with the Dark Side and ends up destroying the planet. "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." That was always a line I'd hope we see a demonstration of in the prequels. At this point Obi-Wan would show up to stop him and they would duel with the planet breaking apart around them. My friend the LotR fan had some thoughts on turning the crystal into a similar object at the Ring of Power, with it being crucial to the saga. I didnt want our Star Wars to be Lord of the Rings 2.0, so I figured after Anakin warped it with the Dark Side it would be gone forever. Anyway, those were just some the the ideas we had (have). What are your thoughts on using the Kyber Crystal, auraloffalwaffle?
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
What are your thoughts on using the Kyber Crystal, auraloffalwaffle?


You cannot wield it! None of us can!

Okay, well I just finished reading up on the Kyber Crystal on Wookieepedia. I'm afraid I'd not heard of it before!

I can see what you mean about sailing very close to the one ring. Something on the Wookieepedia entry that could be used to avoid that is the suggestion that the power of the crystal diminishes the further it is taken from the temple in which it was found (in Splinter Of The Mind's Eye). In other words, in order to weild the full power of the crystal, one would have to resign oneself to living out one's life in the temple on Mimban. This could lead to Luke making the decision to leave the crystal behind, knowing that no-one can take the crystal from the temple and still have access to the power that it holds. Maybe he makes the decision that his father couldn't?

There are many things that make up the SW saga. The love of power, the love of freedom, the love of truth and, of course, true love!

Is anyone else vomiting yet? Excuse me...

[Spends some quality time with a bucket]

That's better!

So, to answer your question Commander Courage, it seems like a great way to build a plot for the saga. My thoughts hadn't been running along such lines, but then I've never read Splinter Of The Mind's Eye! I did particularly like your idea for the destabilisation of the crystal creating the lava that scars Anakin!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Just to update - I'm thrashing out my basic skeleton for my PT at present. I'm thinking through the whole sequence of events before deciding which parts should become episodes 1-3. I've also decided that, as part of this project, I'll write my own novelisation of SW '77 and re-write episodes 5 & 6. I'll be looking to keep everything from ESB & ROTJ but revise the connections between the characters and avoid the worst of the merchandise tie-ins.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I'm leaning back over towards Luke & Leia as twins. As I'm planning the way the plot will go over the six episodes I just can't shake the feeling that there is a great potency in forcing Padme to choose between the two twins when they go into hiding. Combine that with being able to re-write ANH, ESB and ROTJ to accommodate the fact that they're related from the beginning and it should work well. I just like that story.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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It's good to see you're still at work on this, auraloffalwaffle. Don't be a quitter like me, though; see it through to the end!

A couple of thoughts on Luke and Leia:
-Don't limit yourself to making them siblings. Since you're rewriting V and VI as well, why not utilize the original plan of Luke's sister being hidden on the other saide of hte galaxy? Though I can see the disadvantages to this in only 6 episodes, with her showing up "at the last minute" not allowing for any character development.
-If they're not siblings, they can end up together in the end, something I would have liked to see happen. With Han either dying or him and Leia deciding they're not for each other. But again, with only 6 episodes this can make Leia seem less than honorable with her flip flopping between them.

Just a couple of ideas Lucas threw to the wayside that I planned to use in my versions.
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Are you guys talking about writting this or are you going to do a major fan-edit and completely redo the films.


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We're discussing total rewrites here. These types of story alterations would be impossible to achieve with editing, no matter how sophisticated.
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Originally posted by: Marvolo
Are you guys talking about writting this or are you going to do a major fan-edit and completely redo the films.


A redo from the standpoint of transforming Star Wars into an actual kind of mythology that has multiple authors and versions.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Indeed. Inspired by the fact that the PT was clearly not planned very well, leading to multiple errors with regard to the continued story as told in the OOT (or even the SEs!).

I started out thinking of writing my own PT. Then I got to thinking that, if I was going to re-write the PT, I might as well do my own novelisations of the OOT films. And then I got to thinking that, since I'm re-writing the first two trilogies, I could also write the third of the trilogy of trilogies.

Commander Courage has also had this plan, with a friend, and started work. We have been exchanging ideas. I have also been very interested to get comments from other ot.com members on ideas that have occurred to me and to hear how they have imagined the saga themselves. Some ideas I have, like keeping the droids in throughout, have not been popular with everyone. Others have been.

At the moment, I'm in the process of thrashing out the basic skeleton for the saga. Once that's done, it will be possible to select the nine episodes from the saga to actually write as novels. I will still call the middle three A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi. The PT episodes will get new titles.

Commander Courage, I'm really glad you posted about the possibility of Luke's sister being hidden until the third trilogy. Until I read that, I hadn't even thought of anything so simple and yet effective to allow for the "separation at birth" to stay and to ditch the "Luke & Leia are related." I don't know why I couldn't think of that, but I couldn't...

D'OH!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage

Back in 1980, when Vader made this revelation, did everyone necessarily think this meant Darth Vader was in fact Anakin Skywalker...?


No. I for one recall debating at the lunchroom table (at age 8) whether or not Vader was actually Luke's father. I was in the camp that thought Vader was trying to trick Luke. In watching the film later as I got older, I realized that the exchange of thoughts between Luke and Vader as the Falcon was escaping Bespin made it quite clear that the intention was for the audience to walk away believing that Vader was in fact his father. And I believe at that point, GL was decided on the identity of Vader.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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Originally posted by: lord3vil
As for spaceship and set design, I'll take the death stars, TIE fighters, X wings, Y wings, Millennium Falcon, star destroyers, cloud city, AT-ATs and AT-STs over anything I've seen since.


Among the many beefs I had after seeing TPM, one that stood out for me personally was that there were no memorable spaceships/vehicles. Perhaps the OT ones were so memorable to me is because:

a. it was groundbreaking, so we weren't used to seeing other-worldly vehicles

and

b. I was the perfect age to enjoy playing with the toys throughout the run of the OT (age 5 in '77, 11 in '83)

After each film, a large part of the discussion centered around the vehicles. The Millennium Falcon had an attitude to match its pilot. It, along with the Death Star, was an actual character in the film. The Landspeeder was so cool, too, as far as we were concerned. TIE fighters had a great look. Then came ESB and the AT-ATs. We couldn't stop talking about those. The snow speeders were pretty meh, as were the cloud cars. But Slave I was a great reflection of its pilot (much as the MF was for Han). For ROTJ, the speeder bikes were the main vehicle of interest. But the AT-STs and Imperial Shuttle were definitely discussed as well.

The Millennium Falcon had more of a personality than anyone in the PT. With each film, we learned about the ship's strengths and weaknesses, we found out who loved it and to what degree, we saw it frustrating those who loved it. It was crucial to the Battle of Yavin, pivotal to the rescue of Luke in ESB, and was once again heroic in the destruction of the ROTJ Death Star.

Nothing in the PT came close to this.

Pink Floyd -- First in Space

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That's very true. None of the vehicles really had the personality of the ones in the OOT. But then Lucas made the bizarre decision to make everything in the PT clean and new, going against the look that set Star Wars apart from other Sci-Fi movies that came before. I think the lack of personality goes hand in hand with that decision. The craft that we fell in love with felt like they weren't from a 1950s "visions of a utopian future", they felt like they were functional and had a relationship with their owners. Particularly with the Millennium Falcon, which looked like Han Solo had added to it countless times, making it faster and tougher. The two of them had grown together.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
That's very true. None of the vehicles really had the personality of the ones in the OOT. But then Lucas made the bizarre decision to make everything in the PT clean and new, going against the look that set Star Wars apart from other Sci-Fi movies that came before. I think the lack of personality goes hand in hand with that decision. The craft that we fell in love with felt like they weren't from a 1950s "visions of a utopian future", they felt like they were functional and had a relationship with their owners. Particularly with the Millennium Falcon, which looked like Han Solo had added to it countless times, making it faster and tougher. The two of them had grown together.


Where do you get that from? Go back and look Attack of the Clones.... the clonetroopers and the vehicles are all dirty and worn.
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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JediRandy!! Where have you been, man?!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
JediRandy!! Where have you been, man?!



Oh, I'm around!


Serioulsly, though... there was plenty of worn looking vehicles in the PT. Slave 1, the Jedi Starship.... the only one that was "clean" where the silver Naboo ships, but a Queen with a filthy beat-up ship doesn't make much sense...
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas