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My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]
Star Wars Limited Edition Screen Captures. — Page 5
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Originally posted by: Moth3r
This is weird. Although the GOUT version has more horizontal detail, it looks like vertical detail has been filtered. Compare the width of the black line in shot 4:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3729/untitled1copyyc7.jpg
(GOUT - top, Moth3r - bottom. The increase in grain is also evident in this shot.)
So - is this loss of vertical because of the upscaling from NTSC to PAL? Please can somebody grab some comparison frames from the NTSC release?
This is weird. Although the GOUT version has more horizontal detail, it looks like vertical detail has been filtered. Compare the width of the black line in shot 4:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3729/untitled1copyyc7.jpg
(GOUT - top, Moth3r - bottom. The increase in grain is also evident in this shot.)
So - is this loss of vertical because of the upscaling from NTSC to PAL? Please can somebody grab some comparison frames from the NTSC release?
I think before we start throwing ideas around llike detail has been lost or they added grain, we need to compare the GOUT to the NTSC Definitive Collection LD, which all versions of the GOUT look to be sourced from. It's one thing to compare it to a PAL transfer or a pre-'93 transfer, and completely another to compare it to the version it actually came from. When I have time tonight or tomarrow I'll post screenshots of a DC capture, unless someone beats me to it. (hint
)And THX, you are the MAN!
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Are these NTSC GOUT screenshots you're posting?
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
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Okay - that's yer lot!
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We most certainly have a rabbit, a few pigeons, some handkerchieves, and a deck of playing cards up our sleeves. The game is far from over.
What about goats??!! We demand goats!!
Tsk tsk Zion, you can only build expectations with hints like that
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Speculation:
- this is too much grain to be film grain
- it looks like single-pixel noise, "as if" added in post
- my guess is that the Telecine was quite crappy, and added this noise for one reason or another
- and that the LD mod-demod smooths out the fine noise because it can't resolve single pixels from the D1 master.
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Originally posted by: seventiesfilmnut
I believe it's just the primitive 1993 era DVNR at work creating this grain, which is more visually obvious on the GOUT DVD mastered from the master-tape, than the LD releases. Pity they didn't create the mastertape first, then add the DVNR at a later stage. Fo rthis release we could have then skipped the grain!
I believe it's just the primitive 1993 era DVNR at work creating this grain, which is more visually obvious on the GOUT DVD mastered from the master-tape, than the LD releases. Pity they didn't create the mastertape first, then add the DVNR at a later stage. Fo rthis release we could have then skipped the grain!
DVNR = Shit !
I am actually very pleased that you can see the film grain on the GOUT discs. This IMHO make them better than the fan preservations. If you apply DVNR to it, you get a mushy looking "video" look, which you have on a lot of DVD´s from 1998-2002, when big studios thought DVNR is a good idea... This way, it looks actually like film.
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Originally posted by: ronlaw
This grain issue is really odd. That shot of the back of the stormtropper makes it very obvious.
Speculation:
- this is too much grain to be film grain
- it looks like single-pixel noise, "as if" added in post
- my guess is that the Telecine was quite crappy, and added this noise for one reason or another
- and that the LD mod-demod smooths out the fine noise because it can't resolve single pixels from the D1 master.
This grain issue is really odd. That shot of the back of the stormtropper makes it very obvious.
Speculation:
- this is too much grain to be film grain
- it looks like single-pixel noise, "as if" added in post
- my guess is that the Telecine was quite crappy, and added this noise for one reason or another
- and that the LD mod-demod smooths out the fine noise because it can't resolve single pixels from the D1 master.
What is so odd about film grain? I have seen now the GOUT, and I must say that the grain is very predictable. In shots with special effects, it is worse, in shots in the desert, it is also worse due to the filming conditions, and in most other shots, it is normal. The special effect shots in space are not grainy, because they were shot in VistaVision. Other special effects movies behave exactly the same way.
The truth is: we are not used anymore to watch Star Wars this way. In the SE´s, they have recomposited everything with the computer, so all the grain which comes due to heavy optical printing is lost.
And the Laserdiscs were most probably created with heavy DVNR, and you can clearly see that on the examples i posted in another thread. And I´m afraid that it is one HEAVY drawback if you want to remaster these films using the LD sources.
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Like yourself I actually like film grain, make you realise you are watching a celuloid film not some CGI digital re-creation, and am glad you can see it in alot of the shots. Unfortunately in certain areas (Tatooine segments on Star Wars, Hoth on Empire etc) they must have put the DVNR on it's highest setting, and I bet the film grain drove the DVNR software crazy creating a somewhat murky end result in some scenes....
I think some are confusing film grain with DVNR artifacts - we have both on display with these releases...
I'd still rather have these than the SE's any day of the week however.
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Originally posted by: seventiesfilmnut
I remember reading somewhere on the Home Theatre forum that the DVNR was applied DURING the telecine process back in 1993 so it's unfortunately built-in to the D1 mastertape, which these have been struck from.
I remember reading somewhere on the Home Theatre forum that the DVNR was applied DURING the telecine process back in 1993 so it's unfortunately built-in to the D1 mastertape, which these have been struck from.
If this is true, then they really should have used the tape from the PAL transfer session instead, because it has way fewer DVNR artifacts than does the NTSC version!
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The PAL master may have issues of its own (it's dirtier, the framing's a bit different now and again, and I think the highlights are a little blown out in places), but it's definitely got more resolution and fewer DVNR artifacts than the NTSC version.
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