logo Sign In

Why do people think Han changed if/when he Greedo shot first?

Author
Date
Author
Time
Post link
I probably wouldn't have ever noticed the change in 1997 if the internet didn't tell me so. Going back and watching the old version, there was a LOT of smoke, so yeah, it coulda happened. Anyway, I think the 2004 version is great.

I never thought of Han as a badass in the first place. I always thought of him as kind of a coward, really. I always knew he was a good guy, but he didn't want to get involved so as to not get hurt. I mean he kinda ran away when there was a big space fight supposed to happen. Then, he got a change of heart and came back to help save the day. That's the Han I always knew and he never changed. He just wanted to do whatever he could so that he wouldn't get hurt. He obviously shot Greedo so that he wouldn't get shot himself. He didn't care (actually he did) about helping the Rebels, because he didn't want to get hurt as well. That's it. What do you guys think of this? I was only one when the movie was released, but I kinda thought Han and Indiana Jones were about the same. Much like Indy is scared of snakes, Han is scared of Greedo (though he hides it) and everyone else that might harm him.
Author
Time
Post link
Actually he left because he had to pay off Jabba.
Author
Time
Post link
I don't mind it so much that Greedo shoots, but as to how it was done. It looks terrible. If it was done well, I probably could accept it. Thats the problem I have with most SE additions. They just don't "fit in".
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Krycek87
Actually he left because he had to pay off Jabba.
That was his excuse. But in the end, he just didn't want to be there. A couple more hours to help the Rebels wouldn't have hurt. Heck, flash forward to a few months/years later and he still hasn't paid off Jabba.
Author
Time
Post link
The reason that Lucas changed E4 in order to have Greedo shoot first is simple; Lucas is a life long Hippy jack ass who revels in political correctness and communist ideology. Since Han eventually became one of the OTs heroes, it is politically incorrect for Han to shoot Greedo in anything but self defense. In future versions Han will probably sue Greedo in civil court for firing at him instead of firing back. If you have ever seen the old deleted scenes from this film, Lucas had originally included a three minute anti-Vietnam war rant between Luke and Biggs. Thankfully it was dropped (unlike the prequels which are loaded with this political trash). Before responding to my comments here please understand that I have no political bias, I am equally as sickened by extreme political garbage of any type being shoved down my throat while I'm trying to enjoy a fantasy adventure film. It is especially irrittating though when someone has such an insistance on injecting an ever changing sense of political correctness. Han can't shoot first because deep down he is a good guy, my god that Lucas is a horse's ass.

HARMY RULES

Author
Time
Post link
Does anyone remember or know where to find that loooong list of things that Han shot WITHOUT being shot at first???

That was hilarious.
Author
Time
Post link
See that's what I don't understand. How did anyone NOT always know that deep down Han was a good guy? I knew that from the very beginning. If he was a bad guy, he wouldn't have helped Chewie (before the movie), Luke and Obi-Wan, no would he? No, he wouldn't have. So, duh, he's good. It's easy.
Author
Time
Post link
We don't know anything about him "helping" Chewie, and he only "helps" Luke and Obi-wan because they offer him seventeen thousand credits, got him stuck in an Imperial space station, and introduced him to a rich princess. He doesn't do anything altruistic until after he gets his reward and leaves. Even that act can be seen as self-serving; he's had run-ins with the Imperial fleet, and blowing up one of their space stations could've been his revenge.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: marioxb
See that's what I don't understand. How did anyone NOT always know that deep down Han was a good guy? I knew that from the very beginning. If he was a bad guy, he wouldn't have helped Chewie (before the movie), Luke and Obi-Wan, no would he? No, he wouldn't have. So, duh, he's good. It's easy.


The Chewie thing is EU. Despite that, saving someone from slavery is far different from shooting someone in self-defense (you don't have to wait to be shot at to consider it self-defense). Luke and Obi-Wan were paying him originally. Sure, they didn't get to Alderran, but Han got them back to Yavin on the condition that he would be paid. Yeah, he's a good guy at heart, but he needs to go through some sort of character arc. Without that, he's just a flat good guy character. If he started as plain old good guy, he wouldn't have demanded to be paid to begin with. He would've just said "Nah, it's cool. I'll take you guys back and we'll call it even". There'd be no point to that since there's no character development. He needs to start off as a smuggler/mercenary and then transition to a full blown Rebel.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
Author
Time
Post link
In the original incarnation of the scene, Lucas said he had 3 squib set ups he had the time and money to shoot, and that all 3 times the squibs didn't go off at the right timing. He said in one shot, Greedo shot way before Han, in another shot, Han shot way before Greedo, and in the take they ended up using they shot at that same time, but you couldn't really tell. (this is from Lucas own words on the Making Movie Magic CD ROM). So he went in and made sure the dialogue made it clear that Greedo planned on killing Han. (you know, the Over my dead body... That's the idea). But I think the problem is a lot of people don't pay too much attention to subtitles, so a lot of kids got the idea that Han just shot Greedo in cold blood. I think he probably heard from enough kids who told him they loved Han the best because he killed Greedo in cold blood, that he felt an obligation to make his intentions more clear.

But either way I don't see how it changes anything about Han. Wether Greedo shot first or not doesn't negate the fact that he flat out told Han he planned on killing him.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
In the original incarnation of the scene, Lucas said he had 3 squib set ups he had the time and money to shoot, and that all 3 times the squibs didn't go off at the right timing. He said in one shot, Greedo shot way before Han, in another shot, Han shot way before Greedo, and in the take they ended up using they shot at that same time, but you couldn't really tell. (this is from Lucas own words on the Making Movie Magic CD ROM). So he went in and made sure the dialogue made it clear that Greedo planned on killing Han. (you know, the Over my dead body... That's the idea). But I think the problem is a lot of people don't pay too much attention to subtitles, so a lot of kids got the idea that Han just shot Greedo in cold blood. I think he probably heard from enough kids who told him they loved Han the best because he killed Greedo in cold blood, that he felt an obligation to make his intentions more clear.

But either way I don't see how it changes anything about Han. Wether Greedo shot first or not doesn't negate the fact that he flat out told Han he planned on killing him.


You are awesome! That's what I always thought. I mean look at all that smoke there in the OUT/ GOUT/ OOT/ WOOT/ HOOT/ BOOT/ whatever it's called.
Author
Time
Post link
Yeah, it's too bad the only place Lucas ever really adresses this matter is on that Making Movie Magic CD rom. It wasn't widely released, and was soon outclassed by the "Behind the Magic" CD-ROM that they put out later.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
If that was Lucas's intention, he did a pretty bad job of communicating it. The scene makes it clear that Greedo intends to take Han back to Jabba, who will kill Han, then take his ship.

Greedo: You can tell that to Jabba. He may only take your ship.
Han: Over my dead body.
Greedo: That's the idea.

Greedo refers to bounty hunters, not hitmen, pursuing Solo; most secondary sources suggest that Greedo is a bounty hunter as well. Return of the Jedi reinforces the idea that Jabba employs bounty hunters to bring him his enemies alive ... he enjoys making artwork out of them, feeding them to his pets, etc. Han has a deathmark on his head, but the O-OT shows us that he was to be delivered alive to Jabba.

Lucas's original intention may have been otherwise, but what he realized is superior in terms of character arc and believability. He diminished both when he failed to recognize the results of a happy accident (or his editors).
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
Author
Time
Post link
Still the point Greedo was making was that the plan was to kill Han.

I agree it wasn't very clear in the original incarnation of the scene, hence why Lucas chose to clarify the matter in the SE versions.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
Han shooting first makes him more of a "scoundrel", more dangerous.

That's more interesting than a predictable Boy Scout, and makes his later change of heart to return in the battle's climatic moments a redemption.

With Han shooting second, his change of heart isn't a revelation.

Big difference for me.
Author
Time
Post link
I always got the idea that Greedo was going to shoot Han based on Greedo's words as well. Also, I thought a bounty hunter and hitman were the same thing. Maybe I'm dumb. Whatever.
Author
Time
Post link
Crikey - that was an interesting read. I never for a moment thought that Han hadnt shot first in the original versions, but you are right - there IS a lot of smoke. This was the one change that bugged me (like most it seems) sheerly due to the 'correctness' of it. It didnt cross my mind for example that GL actually DID set up Greedo shooting first. In which case, believe it or not, I'll let him off!
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: marioxb
I always got the idea that Greedo was going to shoot Han based on Greedo's words as well. Also, I thought a bounty hunter and hitman were the same thing. Maybe I'm dumb. Whatever.


I also had this impression that Greedo was just going to blast him. If I remember right, the novelization and the shooting script bear this out:

HAN
I've been waiting for you Jabba.

JABBA
I expected you would be.


HAN
I'm not the type to run.

JABBA
(Fatherly-smooth)
Han, my boy, there are times when you disappoint me... why haven't you paid me? And why did you have to fry poor Greedo like that... after all we've been through together.

HAN
You sent Greedo to blast me.

JABBA
(Mock surprise)
Han, why you're the best smuggler in the business. You're too valuable to fry. He was only relaying my concern at your delays. He wasn't going to blast you.

HAN
I think he thought he was. Next time don't send one of those twerps. If you've got something to say to me, come see me yourself.



If George had wanted to have both Han and Greedo shoot at the same time, the evidence of the Making Magic CD-ROM seems to back that up. I still prefer the scene the way it turned out in the original, but I'm not going to be mad at George for this change. That's what the new Hayden scene in Jedi is for.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
In the original incarnation of the scene, Lucas said he had 3 squib set ups he had the time and money to shoot, and that all 3 times the squibs didn't go off at the right timing. He said in one shot, Greedo shot way before Han, in another shot, Han shot way before Greedo, and in the take they ended up using they shot at that same time, but you couldn't really tell. (this is from Lucas own words on the Making Movie Magic CD ROM).
You mean the "Making Magic" CD-ROM that was used as a promo for the SEs?

If so, he doesn't mention any of that. What he does say is (and this is probably the 5th time I've quoted this and the 5th time nobody's cared):

George Lucas: "Well, the change in the Greedo scene: it's always been a little difficult exactly how Han shoots Greedo and what Greedo does to provoke that. And obviously, the situation was that Geedo's gonna shoot Han, Han outdraws him and kills him. But in the film, it sort of appeared that Han shot him without Greedo knowing what was going on. That always bothered me so we added a new shot - a wider shot - where you see Greedo fire his gun and have it richochet off the wall, and then Han shoots him so it doesn't look like Han shot him in cold blood. We did have some difficulty in the timing of the laser so that it looks believable that Greedo could have fired the gun and then Han would have fired shortly thereafter but still have it far enough apart for it to read, for an audience to see that there were two separate gun shots going on."

Author
Time
Post link
You are saying he didn't mention the 3 squib setups, that the one take they used had both go off at the same time but you couldn't really tell?
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Post link
Geez, you're actually going to belive what Lucas says 20 years later when he's done nothing but lie in the past decade? And when the script and the novelization completely contradict it?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Post link
I have yet to catch Lucas in a bold-faced lie myself.

He has changed his mind on some things, but most of the time it has more to do with people misunderstanding what he's saying.

Your focus determines your reality.