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Info Wanted: Anyone Planning on making Anamorphic versions using 2006 OUT DVDs? — Page 4

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Originally posted by: Doctor M
This is why there are Progressive Scan DVD players. They don't convert the data to 29.97, they playback the 24 frame progressive material as recorded.
Not to split hairs, but I think most progressive scan players actually apply the flags, and then use post-processing to IVTC. This is because a lot of DVDs -- especially older ones -- don't use the flags properly, like they should. Ignoring flags is elegant, but brute force field matching is more foolproof.

[HD content] allows for true 24 frames. There is no NTSC and no PAL. Hopefully interlacing and telecining will soon be a thing of the past.

Not too likely. Don't forget that 1080i is interlaced, just like NTSC.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs don't even allow for 4x3 content, meaning non-anamorphic discs can't exist.

Actually, HD is defined to be a square pixel format, so strictly speaking all HD is non-anamorphic! And there's nothing stopping anyone from releasing a pillar- and letter-boxed version, so the widescreen movie is letterboxed in a 4:3 window which is pillarboxed in a 16:9 HD frame...
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Karyudo,
Not to split hairs, but I think most progressive scan players actually apply the flags, and then use post-processing to IVTC. This is because a lot of DVDs -- especially older ones -- don't use the flags properly, like they should. Ignoring flags is elegant, but brute force field matching is more foolproof.

Yes, I know that was definitely true of the first models, and is probably still the case, but I didn't want to confuse things.

As far as 1080i, from my understanding they're starting to push 1080p now. I'll admit I'm not completely up on the format, but is the interlacing just the way the TV displays it or do they actually record the content interlaced?

And yes, square pixels mean it's all non-anamorphic, but it's non-anamorphic at 16x9 resolutions. So more accurately they are all widescreen. Yes they are welcome to take and pillarbox the thing, but lets hope we see little of that crap.

ESHBG, you don't need Movie Only mode if you want the menus. Movie only is just that, the movie, no menus, nothing.
As far as if the menus are converted to anamorphic or kept anamorphic, I don't know. You'll have to see what you end up with.
As far as DVD-9's it's not uncommon to see them for $1.80. But either way you can test your newly encoded disc before you burn it...

Everyone Else, anyone notice that the TV commercials for this set aren't even saying the OUT is on the set? In fact they aren't saying that OUT is limited edition, they are saying "available individually for a limited time."

Are they playing with words? Are we next going to see the OUT as part of a boxset after they try to rook us for this crap release?

Dr. M

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Thanks again, Dr. M!

Everyone Else, anyone notice that the TV commercials for this set aren't even saying the OUT is on the set? In fact they aren't saying that OUT is limited edition, they are saying "available individually for a limited time."

Are they playing with words? Are we next going to see the OUT as part of a boxset after they try to rook us for this crap release?

IMO, Y E S!!!! I think every ad and response from them is nothing but a play on words. Here are my responses in other threads re: the official trailer for the DVDs, and I would bet money that it all plays out this way:


I still think we need to read (and listen) between the lines here regarding the OUT and future releases, though, and I am convinced we will see it again soon. Even that trailer is careful to point out more than a few times, "For a Limited time only, own EACH movie of the Star Wars Trilogy INDIVIDUALLY on DVD." I feel that is how Lucas will get around the whole OUT being limtied thing in the future, because they will be bundled together, or without the SE, or with the PT...

Also, "As a special added VALUE bonus, the original theatrical version from 1977, 1980 and 1983." Value usually equals "just good enough for the money." Nothing will stop a better version for more money, and again, yet another way for Lucas to get around the whole "You will never see the OUT like this again" thing.

*****************

And exactly why I am considering NOT buying the 09/12 release now. After further thought, I DO think they are releasing it for the fans that have never seen it. They will then most definitely want it in future releases now (if nothing else than for "collection" purposes) whether alone, in a boxed set, etc.

See, the die-hard OUT fans already love it so Lucas(s) doesn't need them in his mind; he can wait as long as he wants and he still has their purchase if the release is done correctly. But IMO all of the younger and/or new fans will most certainly like the OUT now that they have had a chance to see it. Imagine the hype Lucas(s) will create when he tells those same people, "Hey guys, remember those OUT movies you saw for the first time via the 09/12 release, you know, the ones you loved due to [nostalgia/"missing" scenes/insert the reason here]? Well guess what....they are coming out cleaned up and restored! Anamorphic, choice of audio, bonus features on the discs...". No matter how Lucas(s) chooses to sell those, whether in a mega-boxed set, alone, whatever, they are guaranteed to sell very well!

So yeah, I really feel like this 09/12 release is a way to A) clear old SE stock for next year and B) rope new OUT fans in.
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Originally posted by: Doctor M
As far as 1080i, from my understanding they're starting to push 1080p now. I'll admit I'm not completely up on the format, but is the interlacing just the way the TV displays it or do they actually record the content interlaced?


For live broadcasts (e.g. sports, late night talk shows), 1080i content is recorded and broadcast interlaced. It is impossible, given the limitations of the FCC-mandated bandwidth for a given over-the-air channel, to broadcast in 1080p -- at least at video frame rates. So the options are typically 720p, or 1080i. Which both look about equally good when it's a live source.

What is on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will probably end up being 1080p24, which really doesn't give you any better resolution than 1080i60 when the source material started out as 24fps film, although it will avoid the hassle of IVTC. It's a drag, but you can already IVTC 1080i HD (from OTA, cable or satellite sources) the same way you'd IVTC 480i from DVD.

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Unfortunately there is PAL and NTSC effectively in the HD world.

HD transmissions in Australia are 1080i 50Hz or 720P 50Hz, with SD at 576p 50Hz.

Film based stuff is *effectively* progressive here even in 1080i as each frame is just represented by the two fields, and they speed the 24fps film up to 25fps for PAL HD transmission.

In the US, 1080i is 60Hz, which means they still do the "bloody awful pulldown juddery interlaced abortion mess" [technical term] to make 24 go into 30.

They missed the chance to move everyone to 72Hz worldwide and bypass all of this crap.

Live transmissions like sports are true interlaced 1080i, by this I mean the two fields are not half of one progressive frame, so you can't convert it to progressive and retain the resolution.

Film based material in the USA is still stored on HD-DVD and Bluray discs as 24fps and the players turn it into the juddery mess that is 60Hz, exactly the same as DVD where if the material came from film it is nearly always stored as 24fps on the DVD.

The GOUT poses a problem though, if using the NTSC LD pressing master as their source, then it will be BAPJIAM encoded already, so they need to either do an IVTC of it before putting it to DVD or (heaven forbid) just do a straight transfer as if it was an interlaced video source and waste a ton of DVD space encoding the mixed up frames.
The PAL versions should be straight 25fps (effectively progressive) either way.
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Ugh, I was of the opinion that they performed the pulldown at the time of making the laserdiscs.

I can't recall seeing any other DVD that was a straight port of a laserdisc release that wasn't progressive.
Let's hope GL isn't THAT crazy.

Ok yes yes yes, 1080 is still interlaced in broadcast, 29.97 and 25 fps are STILL thrown around.
But the point is, regardless of the player, UK, Australia, U.S., Japan, all frame rates should be available to everyone and the the resolutions should be fixed (720 or 1080).
So even if someone records a U.K. tv program at 25 fps at 1080i, you could still play it without needing to resize and flag it for 29.97 pulldown to play it in the U.S.
The difference is they made concessions for backwards compatibility, but they've also torn down the walls that separate a lot of content. We should also see the end of slow down, speed up and time shifting of audio.
There'll still be the occasional throwback, but on the whole things should (hopefully) become more simple.

Btw, DVD-Rebuilder handles 29.97 interlaced content just fine too. :-)

Btw, Laserman, why 72 fps? Just a random number? 3x24? Why not 48? It's still a faster framerate than anything else currently used.
Isn't 72 about the limit of the current fastest LCD panels? That would have been hard for them to implement earlier since they push a lot of LCD HDTVs.

Dr. M

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72 because it's easily dividable by 24 (=3, meaning easier and faithful 24p presentations) and it's fast enough so it's easy on the eyes.

I'm merely guessing.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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48 flickers like a bastage, 72Hz is fast enough not to see flicker.

No, unfortunately if a 1080i50Hz program is recorded it will *not* playback on a loit of US HDTVs.
Also the HD-DVD players will not play any 50Hz material even if the region is region1. You cannot get the current Toshiba HD-DVD players to playback anything except NTSC HD, it cannot process any 50Hz material regardless of how it is flagged. It also cannot playback at any refresh rate other than 60Hz, even when all the movies are stored on the disc at effectively 24P, so you get your Judder.

D-Theatre and HD-VHS players will not playback 50Hz material or record it.

Blu-Ray haven't made their mind up yet.

So unfortunately HD is much of the same, 50Hz sped up audio for PAL countries and 60Hz Judder fests with correct audio for the US and Japan.
Interlaced 1080i (not progressive, and can't be made so as the two fields are temporaly different) video for live broadcast material in 50Hz or 60Hz depending on your country. It really is a shambles.

The only place you can do it all is on the PC
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I was misinformed.
Now I'm really disappointed.
I think I'll just build myself a media center-type PC and play anything I damn well please.

Dr. M

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As Moth3r and Zion have stated, the PAL GOUT uses the same NTSC master, which only has a resolution of 720x480. The master got upscaled to PAL-Format, 720x576.

Am I right then, that I get a better anamorphic picture when I take the NTSC GOUT DVD as source for resizing?

It's like:
NTSC Master Tape 720x480 --> Scaling to PAL 720x576 --> Scaling to Anamorphic PAL.
NTSC Master Tape 720x480 --> Scaling to Anamorphic PAL.

You can download 2 videoclips from my PAL DVD to compare your NTSC GOUT release:
http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=6515&STARTPAGE=4

Some infos for the custom-dvds:

GOUT ANH PAL video track: 5.924.363.248 Bytes
DD2.0 ANH audio track: 167.258.880 Bytes [@ Pal-Speed]

GOUT ESB PAL video track: 6.475.773.544 Bytes
DD2.0 ESB audio track: 172.439.040 Bytes [@ Pal-Speed]

GOUT ROTJ PAL video track: 6.659.388.916 Bytes
DD2.0 ROTJ audio track: 181.860.096 Bytes [@ Pal-Speed]

There should be enough space on ANH for a PCM audiotrack, even if you reencode the video at higher bitrate.
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Ok ok, I was overly optimistic. Beware if you are going to try auto conversion software for anamorphic.

I had (wrongly) assumed that at the minimum the black bars would be clear and all alien languages would be a forced subtitle track.
I don't know why I thought that for a moment, but I did.

If you use DVD-rb or whatever else, even if they correctly identify the black borders and remove them (since there is text burned in there), you won't have captions.

Anamorphic conversion is going to take much more work to convert, starting with a newly timed caption track.

Sigh.

Anyone know how X0 plans on handling the subtitles?

Dr. M

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Originally posted by: Doctor M
I had (wrongly) assumed that at the minimum the black bars would be clear and all alien languages would be a forced subtitle track.
I don't know why I thought that for a moment, but I did.


Are you saying that the subtitles are burned in, contrary to what others had said previously?
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Don't get me wrong, I have not actually bought these discs (yet?)

The clip I saw looked like it had burned in titles. Can anyone confirm or deny that?

Dr. M

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Thank You much Doctor M,you have opened my eyes to some new software,and DAMN did it make the conversion easy,and it kept the greedo subtitles too,thanks alot for the info on DVD-RB pro 1.10.7
and it kept everything in tact,but i did have it take 50% quality form extras,to add to the movie,and I still got to use CCE SP,EXCELLENT recomendation.
DJ

ps you also have a PM.
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Originally posted by: R2D2
Am I right then, that I get a better anamorphic picture when I take the NTSC GOUT DVD as source for resizing?

It's like:
NTSC Master Tape 720x480 --> Scaling to PAL 720x576 --> Scaling to Anamorphic PAL.
NTSC Master Tape 720x480 --> Scaling to Anamorphic PAL.


If the PAL version is indeed upscaled from the NTSC Master I would of thought it would be better to go direct from the NTSC dvd.
There would be interpolation through the enlargement process to achieve the PAL res height of 576.

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Originally posted by: dark_jedi
Thank You much Doctor M,you have opened my eyes to some new software,and DAMN did it make the conversion easy,and it kept the greedo subtitles too,thanks alot for the info on DVD-RB pro 1.10.7
and it kept everything in tact,but i did have it take 50% quality form extras,to add to the movie,and I still got to use CCE SP,EXCELLENT recomendation.
DJ

ps you also have a PM.

VERY interesting! dark_jedi, I sent you a PM then.
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well I have them all converted now,and I must say,these are now my favorite versions,on MY setup NO ld capture looks as good as these after I used DVD-RB Pro v1.10.6b and CCE SP 6 pass encoding,and ALL menus and extras are intact(I did rob from the extras to add to the quality of the movie though),I have watched SW,now I am putting in ESB,these look great converted with the above recommended program from Doctor M,thanks again,you were ALOT of help.
also I think I have all versions out except X0 obviously,and the Eraser Set,but I compared this set to ALL others I have,and I like these,I am watching on a 62' DLP Hi-Def TV,with an OPPO Upconvert DVD multi region player,alot of the others look way to filtered to me(like I said,at least on my setup)hell even my Japanese cropped set looks to be filtered to much compared to these.
just thought I would throw this info out there,so if anyone else plans on making anamorphic versions,DVD-RB Pro is SOOOO easy,and VERY good quality as well.
DJ
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Utilizing the two segments ripped by R2D2 (and provided in THIS thread), I have started experimenting with them. Here are a few shots, comparing the simple upscaled version (the "before") and the processed version (using NeatVideo to remove noise, and AviSynth with LimitedSharpenFaster for upscaling and sharpening):

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9598/tuskenasv8.png
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/4795/tuskenbaf3.png

And here a few more comparisons:

Binary sunset (simple upscale)
Binary sunset (processed)

Luke sunset (simple upscale)
Luke sunset (processed)

Luke home (simple upscale)
Luke home (processed)

Luke on ground (simple upscale)
Luke on ground (processed)

Ben (simple upscale)
Ben (processed)

Luke & Ben (simple upscale)
Luke & Ben (processed)

I think turning these discs into anamorphic (while cleaning them up a little bit) might be very possible after all, although it's probably better to start with the NTSC-versions (even for an anamorphic PAL result), since they're not already (crudely) upscaled.

I'll try getting some MPEGs up later.
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Laserschwert, could you PLEASE make up even a crude/brief tutorial on how you did this? I know you commented on the programs you used but a brief
run down on the order and specifics with those programs would be helpful. I hope you agree....I look foward to your answer.

I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.

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Originally posted by: dark_jedi
well I have them all converted now,and I must say,these are now my favorite versions,on MY setup NO ld capture looks as good as these after I used DVD-RB Pro v1.10.6b and CCE SP 6 pass encoding,and ALL menus and extras are intact(I did rob from the extras to add to the quality of the movie though),I have watched SW,now I am putting in ESB,these look great converted with the above recommended program from Doctor M,thanks again,you were ALOT of help.
also I think I have all versions out except X0 obviously,and the Eraser Set,but I compared this set to ALL others I have,and I like these,I am watching on a 62' DLP Hi-Def TV,with an OPPO Upconvert DVD multi region player,alot of the others look way to filtered to me(like I said,at least on my setup)hell even my Japanese cropped set looks to be filtered to much compared to these.
just thought I would throw this info out there,so if anyone else plans on making anamorphic versions,DVD-RB Pro is SOOOO easy,and VERY good quality as well.
DJ

Thanks again for the PM, DJ! Is there any way you could post some screen shots of what they look like converted? It seems like it is worth the time, but I'd like to see just how worth the time it will be!
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Originally posted by: vbangle
Laserschwert, could you PLEASE make up even a crude/brief tutorial on how you did this? I know you commented on the programs you used but a brief
run down on the order and specifics with those programs would be helpful. I hope you agree....I look foward to your answer.

Well, it isn't that hard at all (if you know your way with AviSynth and VirtualDub). I guess NeatVideo (I've used the VirtualDub-version here, you can use the demo version) is the key.

NeatVideo is a video denoiser-plugin based on its predecessor NeatImage, a Photoshop-plugin to denoise still images. It works by sampling a noise pattern, so that the plugin knows, which form of noise should be removed. You can save this noise-profile along with the denoising-settings, and have NeatVideo use these as the default settings.

This is where AviSynth comes into play. Here's the script:

LoadVirtualDubPlugin("F:\VirtualDub\PLUGINS\NeatVideo.vdf","NeatVideo")

MPEGSource("sunset.mpg").crop(0,124,0,-126).ConvertToRGB32

NeatVideo

LancZos4Resize(900,600)
convertToYV12.LimitedSharpenFaster
LancZos4Resize(720,464)
AddBorders(0,56,0,56)

return last


Since AviSynth allows for VirtualDub-plugins to be loaded and used in the script, I do this with NeatVideo. The source is defined, and the black bars are cropped. Since VirtualDub-plugins require a color space format of RGB32 when used in AviSynth, the proper conversion is applied. After applying the filter (it uses the "defaults", as explained above), I upscale the image, a little larger than necessary, sharpen it with the LimitedSharpenFaster-function (which requires a color space conversion to YV12) and scale it down to the anamorphic PAL size (minus the black bars, which get added at the end). Scaling the image up before sharpening, and scaling it down afterwards helps removing some halos that occur through the sharpening.

That's basically it.

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Thanks for the reply...yes thank you for the script, I should be able to find my way now.

One question, Would there be a benifit to different noise-profile for different sceens? I think I read that
the amount of grain varies from sceen to sceen. If I made different noise-profiles and de-noised per sceen rather than the
whole movie at once, would that be worth the extra effort?

I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.

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Originally posted by: vbangle
Thanks for the reply...yes thank you for the script, I should be able to find my way now.

One question, Would there be a benifit to different noise-profile for different sceens? I think I read that
the amount of grain varies from sceen to sceen. If I made different noise-profiles and de-noised per sceen rather than the
whole movie at once, would that be worth the extra effort?


I'm pretty sure that it would yield better results... personally I'd be too lazy to do it that way

Sad thing is, that the Ben & Luke scene contains some SERIOUS deinterlacing-artifacts, and I assume it's not the only scene suffering from something like that.
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Originally posted by: Laserschwert
[T]he Ben & Luke scene contains some SERIOUS deinterlacing-artifacts...


Could you post a sample shot? (With some arrows drawn on, if it's subtle?)

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For those wanting to still use DVD Rebuilder, the one guide I mentioned (advanced feature guide) shows you how to add avisynth filters in the process.

So you can still have it automated. Just type a couple lines like deen().undot().asharpen() or whatever filters you like and still have an anamorphic transfer in a few clicks. It's still much easier than manual.

(Believe it or not I am NOT associated with DVDrb and don't get paid by them )

Dr. M