logo Sign In

First Impressions of the OOT ... — Page 2

Author
Time
Post link
Ooh, wow, so that's what it is. I getcha now. Thanks.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: The Dark Lord
am i alone here or are some of us breathing a collective sigh of relief? if you've seen the discs, please post your impressions.
I was actually thinking about this all last night. I don't buy the crap that the bootlegs are better, because 1. You should really OWN the laserdisc first, before owning the bootleg (which means the PAL French LD's if getting Moth3rs, or the Definitive Edition if getting Citizen's... etc - and even then it isn't legal, unless you transfer it yourself with written permission from the copyright holder), 2. The Laserdiscs are more expensive then the DVD's, even if you don't count the price of getting an LD player. 3. They're more work and more troublesome - you'll get analogue noise, you'll need to flip sides while watching the movie. 4. The official DVD is legal, has the original 1977 crawl - something no bootleg has - and is DVD quality.

I think if anyone is going to disagree they should at least own the Laserdisc and not just a DVD bootleg.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
Author
Time
Post link
I've looked at a few scenes from each movie and it looks good. I have a 32 in LCD widescreen TV and used zoom and it was fine.
George Lucas was seduced by the dark side. The OOT ceased to exist in his mind and became the Special Editions...." "They're more maching now than movies. Twisted and evil."
Author
Time
Post link
Things feel whole again after today.

Have these three movies been disgraced and defiled over the past 10 years? Absolutely. Unforgiveably. But today is reason enough to celebrate, because this is the best presentation of the OOT I've ever seen.

I watched Star Wars earlier today and just finished with Empire. And got completely lost in the story, just as I used to. It isn't perfect. At times it is downright awful. Check out Luke's X-Wing as it descends into Bespin. It looks like an old VHS tape. But for the most part, this transfer is completely passable. Very rarely was I distracted by the picture quality. But most importantly, I was never distracted by God-awful S.E. scenes and effects.

I've had so much animosity towards Lucas and the Star Wars franchise since the late 90s. It had really gotten to the point where Star Wars wasn't enjoyable any more. This changes that. I sat down and watched my two favorite movies of all time, and before long it was 1996 again, and the Special Edition/prequel/2004 DVD debacles were pushed out of my mind. The Star Wars galaxy was once again fascinating, enchanting, and mysterious, just as it used to be. Yeah, it's a modest format, considering the industry standard and the fact that these movies should be given the ultimate treatment. Still, for me, this is a great thing.

One thing that crossed my mind as I was in Best Buy today picking out the tin set. There was a definite buzz around the movie display with people who had been waiting for this release. And this is in freaking Flint, Michigan in the middle of the work day. So I got to thinking; now that Lucas has released these as a litmus test for interest in the OT, is this going to blow up in his face? There seems to be a legitimate hunger for these things, and when word gets out that the transfer isn't completely horrible, that's only going to grow. So what's Lucas going to do? Ignore it? Shrug his shoulders and cash in with a full restoration? Be humiliated by the fact that people actually do prefer the original films to his mutants? Or will he come out and say "boy, people sure embraced the individual release of these movies." Should be interesting.
Author
Time
Post link
I think Lucas will just be glad people are enjoying his movies again.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: boris
I think Lucas will just be glad people are enjoying his movies again.



LOL, true!
Author
Time
Post link
After having meager expectations at best for this set, I have to say I am pleasantly surprised. I have watched Star Wars and Empire on my 52 inch HD LCD and the picture looked great, much better than my "faces" LD set. Some grain in the new set of course but overall great picture and sound. The sound played through my system was surprisingly good too. Rich bass and highs. My only real gripe at this point is that the transfer wasn't anamorphic. I give it an 8 out of 10 overall.
http://forum.stlcomics.com/
Author
Time
Post link
Thanks a lot to everyone re: feedback about 16X9 and zoom. That is pretty pathetic about the sub-titles, though.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: boris
You should really OWN the laserdisc first, before owning the bootleg (which means the PAL French LD's if getting Moth3rs, or the Definitive Edition if getting Citizen's... etc.
I guess I'm one of the few people who can comment, then, since I own all of those LDs several times over.

...with written permission from the copyright holder
You don't have to ask for permission to exercise your fair use rights. They are rights.

The official DVD [...] has the original 1977 crawl - something no bootleg has

The EditDroid Star Wars has the original 1977 crawl -- and it had it about two years ago. Not to mention the fact that the DVD version is almost certainly CG, same as EditDroid. And EditDroid lets you choose between the original and "A New Hope" titles.

I think if anyone is going to disagree they should at least own the Laserdisc and not just a DVD bootleg.

I think that collectively, there's still many things better about bootlegs/preservations than the official DVDs:

- First of all, PAL-sourced projects probably have a bit better resolution than the GOUT discs -- especially where resolution deficiencies are punished.

- PAL-sourced projects have marginally better contrast ratios than the GOUT discs. That doesn't automatically mean better contrast, but a nicely-preserved project could do better than the official DVDs.

- Pre-THX-sourced projects probably have a bit better detail, and possibly better colour than the GOUT discs.

- A couple of projects have isolated scores, which I didn't think I'd care about, but which turned out to be pretty cool.

- Several projects keep the uncompressed PCM audio from the LDs, which is better than the Dolby Digital used on the GOUT DVDs.

All in all, I'm definitely anticipating that some new projects (most notably the X0 Project, but possibly Moth3r's v1.1) could outdo the official release, by combining the best features of the GOUT discs and new LD caps.

LD is dead; Long live LD!
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Karyudo
You don't have to ask for permission to exercise your fair use rights. They are rights. We do not have any legislated "fair use" rights. They are not rights. I know Australia is thinking of adding some "format-shifting" rights, we don't have them, there's no plans to have them, and even if we did have them copying someone else's transfer would still be breaching them. Ergo, the only legal way to own a transfer from Laserdisc to DVD of the Star Wars Trilogy in New Zealand is to write to the appropriate distributors of the LaserDisc (20th Cent Fox Home Video – I presume) and ask for permission to do it. Of course, they probably won't give it to me, since I can own the official DVD.
The EditDroid Star Wars has the original 1977 crawl -- and it had it about two years ago. It had a recreation.
Not to mention the fact that the DVD version is almost certainly CG, same as EditDroid. Rubbish. There is no valid reason to suspect the retail DVD isn't authentic.- First of all, PAL-sourced projects probably have a bit better resolution than the GOUT discs -- especially where resolution deficiencies are punished.
<Zion's site> I beg to differ.- Several projects keep the uncompressed PCM audio from the LDs, which is better than the Dolby Digital used on the GOUT DVDs.
Have you got proof, or is this another assumption like your previous one about the crawl "almost certainly" being CG...All in all, I'm definitely anticipating that some new projects (most notably the X0 Project, but possibly Moth3r's v1.1) could outdo the official release, by combining the best features of the GOUT discs and new LD caps.
Even if this were true, and assuming you had do do it yourself (ie, the upgrade "clips" are made available for download to add to your DVD)... the ever so slight difference simply would not be worth the trouble.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
Author
Time
Post link
Rubbish. There is no valid reason to suspect the retail DVD isn't authentic.
Watch the crawl again. Notice how the stars wobble and the words don't. I would say that's more than a valid reason to suspect the GOUT has a recreated crawl.

Several projects keep the uncompressed PCM audio from the LDs, which is better than the Dolby Digital used on the GOUT DVDs.

Have you got proof, or is this another assumption like your previous one about the crawl "almost certainly" being CG...

What proof do you need that uncompressed audio is better than 192Kbps compressed audio? It's a fact.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

Author
Time
Post link
I REALLY have to to to bed now (it's after 3AM!!) but I just finished watching the ESB DVD and I couldn't go to sleep without a brief review. I was hoping to watch Jedi tonght, but that will have to wait 'till tomorrow evening.

The sound for ESB was also excellent, and I'd say the picture was at least as good if not better than SW. Again, I saw almost no evidence of garbage mattes, and the clarity and detail in the picture was far better than the LDs. I was totally engrossed in the film- it was like I was seeing it again for the first time.

One thing I noticed in both films is the improvement in the stars. The starfields look far better than in the LD versions. The skies are inky black, and the stars are sharp and clear, unlike the fuzzy blobs on the LDs. There is still the aliasing/flickering when the camera moves, but otherwise I see a huge improvement in that respect.

Fantastic. I'm speechless. I'm going to sleep. Goodnight.

Author
Time
Post link
Bah, I don't care how good these DVDs might look, Lucasfilm could have easilly done a better Job. More importantly, this release is not worth purchasing the 2004 edits again (I already feel like burning the ones I own and I don't want a freakin' pair set).

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Zion
Watch the crawl again. Notice how the stars wobble and the words don't. I would say that's more than a valid reason to suspect the GOUT has a recreated crawl. At the very most that is evidence of it being re-composited, or has been digitally stabilized. By the way, the stars would not wobble if it was recreated... when they generate the crawl (and you can confirm this over at Star Wars dot Com) all they do is use a still frame, and CGI the words over it... the stars don't wobble - watch the ROTS crawl - and if the stars wobble and the words don't then I'll eat my hat.What proof do you need that uncompressed audio is better than 192Kbps compressed audio? It's a fact.
Zion, I thought you of all people would know that it's not the bitrate that counts, it's the content. It would be an illegal DVD format without the DD track anyway, and you have to judge it based on how it *sounds*, not based solely on the technical specifications. That's why my non-anamorphic NTSC robocop looks better then my Anamorphic PAL one (I've provided some screen caps that demonstrate that as well).

I know what you're going to say "Boris, it's the SAME track as the uncompressed LD one"... maybe, but that doesn't mean there aren't flaws on the LD track that were ironed out for the DVD.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Mielr
One thing I noticed in both films is the improvement in the stars. I noticed that as well... they are bought out quite well on this release.Originally posted by: Tiptup
Bah, I don't care how good these DVDs might look, Lucasfilm could have easilly done a better Job. More importantly, this release is not worth purchasing the 2004 edits again (I already feel like burning the ones I own and I don't want a freakin' pair set).
As a consumer, you have that choice. Let me ask you - if it was the same price but without the 2004 DVD - would you buy?
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
Author
Time
Post link
The opening crawl is bullshit - spotted the fake gate-weave right away. What's even worse is that if you have any ability at all, you can do a completely convincing, organic looking gate weave; I've had to do that a bunch for other projects. It just screams digital post gag.

Also, I'm willing to put some serious money on the fact that grain has been added to ANH, at least. Again, maybe it's from 12 years of doing this stuff every day, but there's a look to post-added grain that I noticed in a bunch of scenes.

There are two truths: 1) The materials exist to make a fully restored OT DVD, scanned already. 2) Lucas does not want the OT to supplant the SE. The images are being deliberately served up to look worse, from the unnecessary sourcing of laserdisc masters when better materials exist, to the non-anamorphic transfer, etc. They're even running a "campaign" on StarWars.com showcasing the differences between the 1977 and 2004 versions of the films, so that fans can see just how much better the 2004's are. It's a curious move to deliberately devalue a product you just released, isn't it?

_Mike

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

Author
Time
Post link
I gotta tell ya, man. I'm looking forward to seeing it. Some of the more outspoken critics are saying it's enjoyable - that speaks volumes. I'm stopping on the way home.
Forum Moderator
Author
Time
Post link
Ran across this. Anyone else ever hear of this?

Well, have begun the process of exploring the "bonus" discs of my new
SW DVD's...

Overall, they DO look and sound better than I expected, though of
course...not as good as they could or should...(I guess that's why low
expectations make a difference.. .)

Anyway!

Although knowing these were from the 1993 laserdisc masters meant I
was pretty sure I wouldn't see it...the 2.35:1 notice on the back of
JEDI made me hope...

As dilineated in the classic VIDEO WATCHDOG article, Lucasfilm, when
making these transfers, were apparently SO exasperated in the
pre-digital age by the appearance of ONE LOUSY HAIR at the VERY
beginning, in the top center of the screen, which can be seen for a
few frames superimposed onto part of the Star Destroyer... that they
RE-COMPED the entire film, lopping off a dozen or so scan lines and
cropping it down to about a 2.20:1 image.

Of course that same article mentions it could have been done
independently by the telecine operator...but still....every version of
JEDI since then, including the one used as the basis for the 1997
special editions, has also been re-comped... .

Amusing, and ultimately irrelevant, but still...kinda sucks.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

Author
Time
Post link
Mverta, I understand you're a professional: but honestly I don't agree with your theory. For one, I've seen more grain in other movies from the same time period, shot on Pannavision stock, some with larger budgets, and mastered more recently then 1993.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: mverta
There are two truths: 1) The materials exist to make a fully restored OT DVD, scanned already. 2) Lucas does not want the OT to supplant the SE. The images are being deliberately served up to look worse, from the unnecessary sourcing of laserdisc masters when better materials exist, to the non-anamorphic transfer, etc. They're even running a "campaign" on StarWars.com showcasing the differences between the 1977 and 2004 versions of the films, so that fans can see just how much better the 2004's are. It's a curious move to deliberately devalue a product you just released, isn't it?

_Mike


Sorry, but I do think your conclusion is just paranoid. It could have been that the grain was removed during the Laserdisc transfer. The GOUT DVD´s look actually more like film than the Laserdiscs, which have some kind of smooth video look. Laserdiscs have not the bandwith to represent film grain correctly.

What I have observed so far is that:

- these DVD´s have a worse vertical resolution than Moth3rs transfer
- but a better horizontal resolution than Moth3rs transfer
Author
Time
Post link
It almost sounds like a conspiracy theory to say they added film grain.

I don't know about the crawl specifically, but the entire film looked properly grainy .. that is - no more and no less grain than I am emminently familiar with from seeing this movie at the movies nearly a hundred times.

That said, it also looked like a fairly messed-up print ... with some scenes looking unacceptably damaged and others looking rather well. It was a very mixed bag ... but I'm marginallly satisfied with the image quality. Mostly because the color balance seems pretty accurate to film screenings of Star Wars.

I don't think the controvery over the fake or real opening crawl will ever be solved to my satisfaction. Certainly the words "Star Wars" remain visible long after the first two lines of text appear on the screen, and this seems to contradict the version seen in 'Empire of Dreams' (though I haven't yet done my own visual comparison).

I hardly matters to me ... because the audio track screams non-'77 in four places, and the experience of watching this disc does not seem like an original theatrical version ... because it's not. So whether the opening crawl is original or not is frankly moot.






.
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: mverta
The opening crawl is bullshit - spotted the fake gate-weave right away. What's even worse is that if you have any ability at all, you can do a completely convincing, organic looking gate weave; I've had to do that a bunch for other projects. It just screams digital post gag.

Also, I'm willing to put some serious money on the fact that grain has been added to ANH, at least. Again, maybe it's from 12 years of doing this stuff every day, but there's a look to post-added grain that I noticed in a bunch of scenes.

There are two truths: 1) The materials exist to make a fully restored OT DVD, scanned already. 2) Lucas does not want the OT to supplant the SE. The images are being deliberately served up to look worse, from the unnecessary sourcing of laserdisc masters when better materials exist, to the non-anamorphic transfer, etc. They're even running a "campaign" on StarWars.com showcasing the differences between the 1977 and 2004 versions of the films, so that fans can see just how much better the 2004's are. It's a curious move to deliberately devalue a product you just released, isn't it?

_Mike


Another curious move is making up shit to make yourself sound intelligent.
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Bah, I don't care how good these DVDs might look, Lucasfilm could have easilly done a better Job. More importantly, this release is not worth purchasing the 2004 edits again (I already feel like burning the ones I own and I don't want a freakin' pair set).

Are you sending them back?

Originally posted by: JediRandy
Originally posted by: mverta
The opening crawl is bullshit - spotted the fake gate-weave right away. What's even worse is that if you have any ability at all, you can do a completely convincing, organic looking gate weave; I've had to do that a bunch for other projects. It just screams digital post gag.

Also, I'm willing to put some serious money on the fact that grain has been added to ANH, at least. Again, maybe it's from 12 years of doing this stuff every day, but there's a look to post-added grain that I noticed in a bunch of scenes.

There are two truths: 1) The materials exist to make a fully restored OT DVD, scanned already. 2) Lucas does not want the OT to supplant the SE. The images are being deliberately served up to look worse, from the unnecessary sourcing of laserdisc masters when better materials exist, to the non-anamorphic transfer, etc. They're even running a "campaign" on StarWars.com showcasing the differences between the 1977 and 2004 versions of the films, so that fans can see just how much better the 2004's are. It's a curious move to deliberately devalue a product you just released, isn't it?

_Mike


Another curious move is making up shit to make yourself sound intelligent.


Exactly what is he making up? Lucasfilm can do a proper restoration that gives these films the respect that they deserve. They are not. Therefore, they deserve the criticism which they recieve. Lucas dislikes the original theatrial versions while millions of people prefer them. starwars.com is running the item which devalues their own product. What shit is he making up? Mverta is very intelligent, to the point of being a bit intimidating, INMESHO. Read some of his posts.

The materials exist to make a fully restored OT DVD, scanned already


What do you mean "scanned already?"

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

Author
Time
Post link
whew! glad i'm not alone. these are some great comments, guys.

last night i undertook an AB switch comparison with the faces and DC discs.
there is no comparison. the OUT dvds absolutely blow laserdisc out of the water.
i am one phenomenally happy star wars fan. even if they are being doctored to look deliberately worse than they otherwise would (which seems a little extreme, even for lucas), this is still by far the finest presentation of the original trilogy yet released.
i delight in its crispy, grainy splendor. i'm in star wars geek heaven. no it's not anamorphic, but it's a nice, official, raw transfer of the old THX masters. i'll take 'em and love 'em warts and all.

for the record i still feel manipulated for having to buy that deplorable '04 release (both times). the first, just so i could have some semblance of SW on DVD. the second, so i could get this release into my hot little hands. but today, all of this displeasure with lucas' manipulative marketing tactics is outweighed by my rapture with this release. if or when lucasfilm releases better transfers of the original theatrical trilogy, i'm sure i'll buy those too. now excuse me while i watch them again and drool on myself.

huzzah for archival THEATRICAL OT!!!
it is our duty to preserve star wars history...

Author
Time
Post link
http://www.mikeverta.com/Posts/SW_Compare_1a.png

On the left, a pre-93 laserdisc image. On the right, the 2006 "1993-laserdisc-master" DVD. The image is grainier. This either means that the '93 laserdiscs were sourced from a different, and grainier print than the pre-'93 laserdiscs, which would mean they went through the re-issuing and quality actually went down in some respects, or this image has been artificially grained-up. There are some other differences in the images to suggest a different print, as well, so it's not 100% clear. The comment "mixed bag" is especially appropriate to describe the 2006 DVD, which is why I said I'd bet money, and not that I was definitively sure. Having done grain matching on more than 100 projects in the last 10 years, I see a good amount of evidence for post-added grain, which has a look you can recognize if you're familiar enough with it. Ditto the digital gate-weave added to the recreated crawl - it's very distinctive, and easily recognizable. This is a compelling compare; judge for yourself.

That being said...

JediRandy: When you're aware of my credentials and restoration expertise, I'll gladly welcome your input, sans personal attacks. But not before.


_Mike

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!