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Secret CIA prisons — Page 2

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As C3PX said, "You have to understand how your enemy works."

Now, to the best of my knowledge, the islamic belief is that having come in contact with a pig [?and not being able to wash according to what the religion prescribes?], you cannot go to heaven.
The suicide bombers are often connected with the idea of getting 72(?) virgins upon their arrival in heaven when they die in service to Allah.
However, no heaven, no virgins.

C3PX also began to discuss something I wrote then deleted from my previous post...religion, or lack thereof.
There is a certain fervor to be gained from being religious. It drove the Crusades. It drove the Inquisition (not saying it was used for GOOD things). I think it even (to an extent) drove the discovery of the new world.
However, too many people are getting away from religion, or becoming numb to religion, or something along those lines...essentially, we don't care as much anymore OR we choose not to show that we care for fear of upsetting those around us ([sarcasm]thank you liberal interpretation of the Constitution[/sarcasm]).

The Cold War stayed cold because of MAD...Mutually Assured Destruction. The United States did not want to be destroyed, so it did not fire any weapons first. Same deal with the USSR.
This war is different because the radical islamic groups do not fear their own demise, in many cases they welcome it because of their religious beliefs. The closest possible modern-day comparison to what is going would be the Pacific island-hopping campaign of WW2, where the Japanese showed no fear of death in service to their emperor, resulting in thousands of needless casualties.
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Very good point, Starkiller. I'd agree with you if not for one thing:

The media outcry would be nightmareish if they got word of it. It would be like the Valerie Plaime scandal multiplied by a thousand. How DARE you mock their religion!? How DARE this evil administration do such things?

We would never hear the end of it.

If we could use some way to intimidate them with their own religion (not out of disrespect for Islam itself but simply because that terrrorists are motivated by it) AND keep it a secret from anyone back home, especially those with media ties... Then I can't say I'd ojbect. They think they're going to hell because of pig's blood? As if their jobs weren't enough to guarantee that.

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Originally posted by: starkiller
I believe it should be fair game to take advantage of those fears.

Originally posted by: Governor Tarkin
Fear will keep the local systems in line.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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@ Starkiller and C3PX

I now all that...

Now I agree with Darth Chaltab. Do you remeber the reactions with the "funny" pictures of the profet Muhammed in danish newspapers??? And you still think it is a good idea to burry them with/next to pigs to get some respect and scare them? You'll probably start world war 3.
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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How DARE you mock their religion!? How DARE this evil administration do such things? The media is outraged by just about everything and anything the current US government does (unless a popular democrat is involved). I could see the media becoming outraged by Bush not wearing matching socks to talk to the White House Press Corp. Would he really suffer that much more grief over it?
On the other hand, it would be the administration using the media to its advantage, just as the terrorists do. What better way to get the word out that the US will NOT tolerate terrorism anymore than doing something that the media will repeat over and over again?

You start with pigs blood on the ordnance. If that helps, next you could coat the outside of Humvees and transport trucks with bacon fat. Put a pig in the hold of commercial airplanes...well maybe that's a stretch.

Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: starkiller
I believe it should be fair game to take advantage of those fears.

Originally posted by: Governor Tarkin
Fear will keep the local systems in line.
Interesting thought, but I think the situations are too different:
1. Tarkin is referring to using the Death Star against Imperial populations that are showing a level of disloyalty to the Empire. A better RL comparison would be if Bush decided to bomb Berkley University, UW-Madison or the home office of the New York Times.

2. The Death Star was a very indiscriminant weapon of mass destruction, destroying both friend and foe, guilty and innocent. I would not dare propose using anything like this on just anyone.
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My aim was to point out what I see as the larger implications of the recent discussions on this thread.

The use of fear as a weapon is not a new concept. But I think it is important to consider what using fear as a weapon means. Fear creates terror. Strategems which use fear could be expressed by the phrase "terror tactics". Is this not the very thing you are setting out to destroy? The use of fear as a weapon is terrorism.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Except we'd be playing to their irrational fears of pigs, while terrorism invokes a very real fear of death and dismemberment, of oneself or of those one loves.

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Originally posted by: starkiller
First:
I seem to be in a minority in this thread, because if it saves lives to torture prisoners (within reason) for information, I consider that ample justification. Khalid Shiek-Mohammad (hope I spelled that all right) is obviously still alive if he was transferred to Guantanamo during the past week, which is a lot better than he deserves for being the "mastermind" behind 3000+ deaths on 9/11.

Second:
I am beginning to become annoyed by the idea that the US, in this particular conflict against terrorism, must be above using certain tactics. This is a double edge sword...
In a society where they use stoning, removal of hands and a great variety of methods we would consider barbaric, they see us as being weak for not using similar methods.
However, if we do resort to their methods, the US government, in the eyes of its own people, become no better than the terrorists, but we may actually cast fear into the hearts of our enemies.
As I said before, if it saves lives (particularly of our people and our allies), I can be more forgiving of the governments actions. I'm not saying break the rules of the Geneva Convention, I'm saying don't give into the fringe 10% of the population that are basically hippies wanting to be relevant again.

Third:
I know it is mearly an urban legend, but I continue to remember the story of Pershing when he was in charge of the Phillippines. The story about him executing muslim criminals with pigs-blood stained bullets and burying them in pits with the bodies of the same pigs.
Islam enstills fears upon its followers, just like any other religion. I believe it should be fair game to take advantage of those fears.


The US shouldn't be holding ANYONE in Guantanamo Bay. The only reason the US holds its POWs, terrorists, etc. there is so that they don't have to abide by US law in dealing with their prisoners.
MTFBWY. Always.

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So, you'd suggest we allow them the benefits of the US justice system that they would seek to destroy? That's allowing them to exploit another part of our society that they view as a weakness.

Returning to a previous item, I found an article online, put up 2 weeks after 9/11:
If pigs could fly ...
Posted: September 27, 2001
1:00 a.m. Eastern

WASHINGTON – Pigs, hogs, swine, porkers, barrows, trotters. When Americans aren't eating them – hot dogs, bologna, spareribs, pig's knuckles, ham, bacon, pork chops – they're adoring them on TV or the big screen. Hollywood has transformed the stinky, snorty critters into lovable pink-bellied icons known affectionately to all of us as "Porky Pig," "Arnold" or "Babe."

In short, most Americans love pigs.

But to Muslims, they are just stinky, snorty critters, the quintessence of uncleanliness.

Indeed, Muslims are forbidden to eat pork by the Koran, their holy book. To knowingly eat pork is to commit an act of sin which could jeopardize their ascension to Paradise.

It's not just meat they have to be careful about eating. They also have to check that cheeses and yogurts – even cake frosting – don't contain "unclean" byproducts such as pork lard.

When traveling on American jetliners, orthodox Muslims typically order vegetarian meals to avoid the chance encounter with one of Arnold Ziffel's relatives. On Arabic airliners, they ask for a "blessed" meat called halal. Such non-pork meat has been drained of blood during the slaughtering and butchering process. The Koran forbids the consumption of animal blood (which makes pig's blood virtually radioactive, an observation our military might find useful, as I'll explain further on).

So averse to pigs are Islamic fundamentalists, that even coming in contact with them – or any part of them, such as their hide – means defiling themselves. It's not a sin to touch, say, a pigskin football, but if they do, they are advised to wash their hands immediately.

Pig-fat products are on the list of items Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia has declared to be against the sharia, the ruling clerics' interpretation of Islamic law.

So, you see, pigs are to Islamic terrorists – such as Osama bin Laden and his henchmen – what kryptonite is to Superman, or what garlic is to Dracula.

Take Mohamed Atta, for example.

The suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 hijackers was so careful not to eat pork fat that he scraped the frosting from cakes. Here was a man more afraid of eating a hint of pork in a dessert than flying a jet full speed into a skyscraper.

See where I'm going with this?

Few in Washington want to admit it, but these Islamic fanatics have baited us into a holy war. And like it or not, we'll have to use their religion against them to win.

Psychological warfare

U.S. forces should start by dropping leaflets over Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, warning residents, in their native Persian tongue, that we've enlisted Afghani moles to contaminate their water supplies with pig's blood.

The propaganda would also warn that American soldiers have greased their bullets with pork fat. We could tell them, while we're at it, that we've ordered special pigskin-lined fatigues for this mission.

At night, we could bombard bin Laden's camps with recordings of hog-snorting. If he and his fellow terrorists won't come out of their caves, send pen-loads of trotters in to nuzzle them.

Can't find bin Laden? Force-feed Taliban clerics pork rinds until they give up his location. If that doesn't work, air-lift pigs into their homes.

In the meantime, airlines could reupholster plane seats with pigskin, and cover cockpit yokes with the "unclean" hide to repel future Islamic hijackers. For insurance, serve passengers bacon bits instead of peanuts.

If their religion is driving them to hate Americans, and rewarding them to kill our people, then it's hardly indecent to use their faith against them to protect us.

Hit them where it hurts. They hit us where it hurts – and they're already planning to do it again.

They're not afraid of death. However, they are afraid of pigs. Send in the porkers, lock them out of Paradise, and watch them surrender.
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That is, quite possibly, the worst bit of arrogant, ignorant, ill-informed toss that has ever been ejaculated over the face of this website.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
That is, quite possibly, the worst bit of arrogant, ignorant, ill-informed toss that has ever been ejaculated over the face of this website.


Saying thatwasn't necsary.
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I'm sorry, Sean, but it really makes me furious when I see such racist, bigoted remarks.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: starkiller
U.S. forces should start by dropping leaflets over Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, warning residents, in their native Persian tongue, that we've enlisted Afghani moles to contaminate their water supplies with pig's blood.

The propaganda would also warn that American soldiers have greased their bullets with pork fat. We could tell them, while we're at it, that we've ordered special pigskin-lined fatigues for this mission.


Kinda like Dr. Strangelove, eh?

"Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream."

That news story has GOT to be a joke. I cannot belive a serious journalist would write that. Not even Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh would be capable of that... hmn... on a second thought...
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
That news story has GOT to be a joke. I cannot belive a serious journalist would write that.


Take a look at the rest of the website. It is a propaganda site for Christian fundamentalism.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: ricarleite
That news story has GOT to be a joke. I cannot belive a serious journalist would write that.


Take a look at the rest of the website. It is a propaganda site for Christian fundamentalism.


Oh... Ok so that makes sense.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
That news story has GOT to be a joke. I cannot belive a serious journalist would write that. Not even Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh would be capable of that... hmn... on a second thought... Note the date...you're looking at a very inflamed journalist 16 days after 9/11 (as I noted when I posted it). I'm sure 16 days after there was talk of placing people in camps around the US the same way they did during World War 2.

Take a look at the rest of the website. It is a propaganda site for Christian fundamentalism.
I've been reading random articles from the site for months (linked from other sites and today was the first time I actually visited its main index) and I've never gotten that impression, what specificially do you see that makes you say that??
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Yes, I saw the date, and I realize it was posted on a period of time in which the whole topic was very sensible and the hated among the perpetuators of the terrorist acts were very high, almost non-logical. But at the same time, you'd never find such comments on a serious, real newspaper or media corporation - it would be kinda like the mohammad cartoon, if you think about it. It's a good thing that particular article faded into obscurity.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Okay, I've clicked on the link and I'm going to note down the things that I view as indicating that this site is run by fundamentalists to promote their views:

On the left - a link to order a free newsletter from 'The Voice Of The Martyrs' - "show your support for persecuted Christians around the world" - another link further down to 'Luxlight Associates', which seems to be a Zionist publications ditributor.

On the right - a list of "highlights", including: "'fair and balanced' network gives $10K to 'gays'"; "National Cathedral used for 'propaganda'"; "Muslim activist gets congressional award"; "Christian beaten for drinking water"; "an evolutionist challenges me" and the most obvious one: "Taking the Name in vain - by Greg Laurie"

My personal favourite is an ad on the home page: "The life and religion of Mohammed - the ugly truth about the founder of the world's most violent religion"

Why not try WND Shop for all your propaganda needs...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Well, I really haven't heard or read anything from him for a long time, so I can't comment on that...
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Okay, I've clicked on the link and I'm going to note down the things that I view as indicating that this site is run by fundamentalists to promote their views:


Why exactly is 'fundamentalism' considered an insult? I mean, I understand being warry of nut-jobs like Fred Phelps and his minions, but wouldn't fundamentalist Christians be practicing the fundamentals of Christianity. Like, you know, 'love your neighbor as yourself', and 'do unto others....'

I wish more people would pay attention to etymology before creating labels for groups.

Originally posted by: ricarleite
Well, I really haven't heard or read anything from him for a long time, so I can't comment on that...


I'm sure you've heard some pretty outrageous things from Rush, but he doesn't mean for everything he says to be taken literally. He's an entertainer, not a reporter.


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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Except we'd be playing to their irrational fears of pigs, while terrorism invokes a very real fear of death and dismemberment, of oneself or of those one loves.


It isn't an irrational fear of pigs. It is a religious belief that pig are unclean, Jews also view pigs as unclean, this is where Islam got the idea from.

Also that artical starkiller posted, it is a bunch of tripe, I am surprised it was ever published or even written in the first place. The guy went a little too far. However, the idea of hog greesing the bullets and letting them know about it would make them less eagar to get shot. Bombarding the cities with pig blood is just sick though.

Also I love how everything is right or left propaganda. "Damn liberal democrates!" "Bloody right winged republicans!" I love how everybody chooses a side and sticks to it.
Left: Bush only started this war to finish is dad's unfinished business, we're only there for the oil.
Right: Ingorant illinformed leftists!
Every story has too sides, but every one just gives into the propaganda and believes everything said by the side they choose. Nobody ever thinks what it is really like. No body really grasps what is at stake here, or how far people of a certian religious belief and willing to carry their believes. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but the ones that are are drivin by a life-time of doctrination. Everything they have ever believed in or been taught points to us and labels us the root of all that is evil.

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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
That is, quite possibly, the worst bit of arrogant, ignorant, ill-informed toss that has ever been ejaculated over the face of this website.
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Interesting, how you choose the words "arrogant, ignorant, and "ill-informed." I think the writer of that article was a little bit too enthusiast about his ideas. But at the same time, everything he said about the Islamic belief system is spot on. All you have too do is find yourself a English translation of Al-Quran and read for a bit. I think all of America was going through an extremely arogant bout right after 11-09-2001. So I will give you that, and for the ignorant, I will give you that one as well, but ill-informed? I don't see that applying. Perhaps it is you who are ill-informed? It goes back to what I was saying, when somebody is completely void of any religion, it makes it impossible for them to understand people who are. They will always regard them as ignorant and superstitious. And with that, I love how it is the religious who are the bigoted ones.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Originally posted by: ricarleite
Well, I really haven't heard or read anything from him for a long time, so I can't comment on that...


I'm sure you've heard some pretty outrageous things from Rush, but he doesn't mean for everything he says to be taken literally. He's an entertainer, not a reporter.


Wow. I didn't realize he was more of an entertainer than a reporter. That been put, I guess I shouldn't say anything about him on that sense...
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Originally posted by: ricarleite
Well, I really haven't heard or read anything from him for a long time, so I can't comment on that...


I'm sure you've heard some pretty outrageous things from Rush, but he doesn't mean for everything he says to be taken literally. He's an entertainer, not a reporter.


Wow. I didn't realize he was more of an entertainer than a reporter. That been put, I guess I shouldn't say anything about him on that sense...


Rush is an editorialist, and has never promoted himself as a reporter or journalist. Most people know where he's coming from, some don't. If someone's never actually listened to him I can understand if they didn't "get" that.

That being said, I do listen to him to be entertained as he does some funny song parodies and such. You've got to hear his "commercial" from the Democratic National Committee (think that's who they said) about Tom DeLay being from Texas: "...and you KNOW what THAT means". LOL
Nemo me impune lacessit

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