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The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released) — Page 55

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OCP, did you ever watch The Comedy of Terrors? Right now, I picture the Brothers Weinstein as morticians re-using the same coffin for another body.

Can't wait for that awesome packaging, though. They should have splurged and made it a 2-disc release by including the fantastic soundtrack.


So, between the new Star Wars DVDs and this, how does it feel to have a one-person operation outdoing major studios?
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Originally posted by: OgOggilby
OCP, did you ever watch The Comedy of Terrors? Right now, I picture the Brothers Weinstein as morticians re-using the same coffin for another body.

Can't wait for that awesome packaging, though. They should have splurged and made it a 2-disc release by including the fantastic soundtrack.


So, between the new Star Wars DVDs and this, how does it feel to have a one-person operation outdoing major studios?

Needless to say I'm proud of the results!

Yours truly,
Chris Sobieniak

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Well, who would have trusted the Weinsteins to do anything truly good with the same film they were responsible for the final bloody mangling of?

Disney may have owned Miramax at the time, but trust me, the Weinsteins were the ones who ruled the roost just the same.

These are the same Weinsteins who only left "Princess Mononoke" untouched because Hayao Miyazaki sent them a real samurai sword, with the note "NO CUTS."
These are the same Weinsteins who were partners in crime, with fellow Thief-wrecker Jake Eberts, on the generally despised Americanization of the "Magic Roundabout" movie.
This is the same Harvey Weinstein who oversaw the re-editing, rewriting, rescoring, and celebrity-cast English dubbing of René Laloux's "Gandahar," retitled "Light Years," then had the audacity to give himself a director credit, ABOVE Laloux's.

This is why I believe that, given the right push, Disney could very well actually be able to restore and complete the film, true to Williams's vision. Simply put, the right people are in control now, and the people who were in control then aren't there anymore.
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>> So, between the new Star Wars DVDs and this, how does it feel to have a one-person operation outdoing major studios?

Frustrating really. My Star Wars DVDs - I look at that whole thing now with genuine hatred. George has abandoned his fans, and is essentially giving them the finger and telling them they're idiots and deserve nothing, then telling them to buy his new video games.

I can't deal with Star Wars fandom anymore, a few seconds of it makes me puke.

The thing with the Thief is very frustrating, but as you say ...

>> Disney could very well actually be able to restore and complete the film, true to Williams's vision. Simply put, the right people are in control now, and the people who were in control then aren't there anymore.

Exactly.

There are certain people high up at Disney who have been very nice, who respect The Thief and might do something with it .... someday.

It's not the Weinstein's fault specifically - yes, Miramax was responsible for the mutilation of so many foreign films, and that's the culture which allowed the recutting of Fred Calvert's cut to happen. But the orders for WHAT to do with Arabian Knight, I would say those orders came from somewhere else, specifically the management at Disney at the time.

Anyway. Times change. So many years have passed that certain people aren't as worried that if this film "gets out", people will hate Aladdin for a certain reason.

Anyway anyway.
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Originally posted by: TServo2049

This is the same Harvey Weinstein who oversaw the re-editing, rewriting, rescoring, and celebrity-cast English dubbing of René Laloux's "Gandahar," retitled "Light Years," then had the audacity to give himself a director credit, ABOVE Laloux's.


Whoah... I've been looking for this movie. Is the English version really that much worse? I noticed that Isaac Asimov (a scientist and author whom I very much respect) revised the translation.

Anyway... 5 days until the 1st DVD release. I might pick it up if I see it sold somewhere cheap, just out of curiosity (and because that brigands song actually sounded catchy). But mainly I'm still waiting for Garrett's DVDs to arrive.

By the way, Garrett, have you had a lot of international orders?
For the latest "Thief and the Cobbler" news, go HERE (and go to the last page)
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>>Anyway... 5 days until the 1st DVD release. I might pick it up if I see it sold somewhere cheap, just out of curiosity (and because that brigands song actually sounded catchy). But mainly I'm still waiting for Garrett's DVDs to arrive.

And I'm waiting for my new DVD burner to arrive, been waiting for a week now. Grrr. My old burner burned out - the fourth I've gone through in less than 2 years. I go through about a burner every 4 months. Which is pretty costly too.

My apologies if yours is one I didn't send yet. (I don't know your real name, Esn.)

>>By the way, Garrett, have you had a lot of international orders?

Oh yes, always. That's where a good chunk of the costs of doing something like this comes from, as I have to satisfy, say, crewmembers in England who deserve and get the whole 17-disc set for free. Gets kinda costly with shipping.

Right now I need my burner so I can help out an English crew doing a Monty Python doc.



Lemme know how the new DVD is. I'll probably get a copy at some point.
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Originally posted by: Esn
Whoah... I've been looking for this movie. Is the English version really that much worse? I noticed that Isaac Asimov (a scientist and author whom I very much respect) revised the translation.


I've never actually seen either version, to tell the truth. It was listed on some website (someone predicting that the Weinsteins would screw up Arthur and the Minimoys) with The Thief and the Cobbler and The Magic Roundabout as another example of an animated film ruined by Miramax/Weinstein. Unfortunately, no actual comparison of the French and U.S. versions exists anywhere. I just know that it was rescored, rewritten, edited, and that Harvey Weinstein put his director credit about Laloux's. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place, since I don't know anything about it.

I guess you'll just have to watch it for yourself, and find out. I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions just from the guy's description. I'd never even heard about the film before I read said page, so I apologize for making such a rash statement.

Anyway...this is about The Thief and the Cobbler. Let's not get off-topic here.
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One idea... what if we started a fundraiser to get an ad placed in Variety calling for a reconstruction? Maybe there's some director or producer out there who can help get the balls rolling.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Originally posted by: Esn
Anyway... 5 days until the 1st DVD release. I might pick it up if I see it sold somewhere cheap, just out of curiosity (and because that brigands song actually sounded catchy).

::shudder::

That's definitely the most offensive of all the songs. I thought so, anyway.

I used to be very active on this forum. I’m not really anymore. Sometimes, people still want to get in touch with me about something, and that is great! If that describes you, please email me at [my username]ATgmailDOTcom.

Hi everybody. You’re all awesome. Keep up the good work.

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No, they're all actually more offensive than "Beem Bom."


>> One idea... what if we started a fundraiser to get an ad placed in Variety calling for a reconstruction? Maybe there's some director or producer out there who can help get the balls rolling.


No, not the right approach.



To tell the truth, I think that as far as doing what needs to be done to get the word out and get Disney more interested in a reconstruction, this project is accomplishing that already.
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Originally posted by: TServo2049
Well, who would have trusted the Weinsteins to do anything truly good with the same film they were responsible for the final bloody mangling of?

Disney may have owned Miramax at the time, but trust me, the Weinsteins were the ones who ruled the roost just the same.

These are the same Weinsteins who only left "Princess Mononoke" untouched because Hayao Miyazaki sent them a real samurai sword, with the note "NO CUTS."
These are the same Weinsteins who were partners in crime, with fellow Thief-wrecker Jake Eberts, on the generally despised Americanization of the "Magic Roundabout" movie.

Still didn't bother seeing that either for the same reason. You only wish other foreign studios/filmmakers that even bothered trusting the Weinsteins would follow Miyazaki's lead in doing the same thing, though I hear that was still a rumor (but it would be nice to think of it being possible given the circumstances).

This is the same Harvey Weinstein who oversaw the re-editing, rewriting, rescoring, and celebrity-cast English dubbing of René Laloux's "Gandahar," retitled "Light Years," then had the audacity to give himself a director credit, ABOVE Laloux's.[/a]
I'm surprised I have yet to watch that version, even though I have that stupid tape anyway (and a copy of the original Gandahar I could watch anytime on my PC).

These are also the same Weinsteins who bother importing a little Spanish cartoon in the 80's to become a familiar fav with most Americans via Nick Jr. entitled "David the Gnome", but that's probably the only good thing they ever did!
Yours truly,
Chris Sobieniak

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Originally posted by: TServo2049
Originally posted by: Esn
Whoah... I've been looking for this movie. Is the English version really that much worse? I noticed that Isaac Asimov (a scientist and author whom I very much respect) revised the translation.

I've never actually seen either version, to tell the truth. It was listed on some website (someone predicting that the Weinsteins would screw up Arthur and the Minimoys) with The Thief and the Cobbler and The Magic Roundabout as another example of an animated film ruined by Miramax/Weinstein. Unfortunately, no actual comparison of the French and U.S. versions exists anywhere. I just know that it was rescored, rewritten, edited, and that Harvey Weinstein put his director credit about Laloux's. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place, since I don't know anything about it.

Well I do have the tape, so I could watch that, and compare that to the original to get an idea of what happened. I just don't feel like putting the effort into it anyway, but if I have to I would.

Thinking of what happened with these classics in the hands of Miramax makes me think of the other animated classics I've enjoyed that had similar tragedies in their first releases stateside, like Miyazaki's "Nausicaa" back in the mid 80's. The company that bothered with this felt they couldn't distribute a nearly 2 hour animated feature theatrically so they had to go and cut that baby down to around 90 minutes, re-write the scripts with name changes and Saturday morning-type dialogue, and some lackluster voice acting to boot (often a rumor went out June Foray voiced the lead character but it's been stated she didn't, but it sounds nearly like her). Somehow they only managed to get that into one or to places in the US before a home video release came out later for the rest to see the horror, not knowing of the true classic it would become in later years (at least Disney didn't let us down on their DVD release a few years back, replaced my fansub pretty good, though I also have Japanese laserdisc copy as well).

I guess you'll just have to watch it for yourself, and find out. I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions just from the guy's description. I'd never even heard about the film before I read said page, so I apologize for making such a rash statement.

Anyway...this is about The Thief and the Cobbler. Let's not get off-topic here.

True, I could've rambled on with more interesting anedotes that wouldn't work on this thread either, but I'm too much an animation nerd to get all sentimental to it.
Yours truly,
Chris Sobieniak

For more mindless entertainment....
My LiveJournal Page
The Online Video Depository - For all your daily video needs!
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I'm all for a little off-topicness if it's interesting.

I think this is still on topic actually, regarding the whole Miramax thing.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie

And I'm waiting for my new DVD burner to arrive, been waiting for a week now. Grrr. My old burner burned out - the fourth I've gone through in less than 2 years. I go through about a burner every 4 months. Which is pretty costly too.

My apologies if yours is one I didn't send yet. (I don't know your real name, Esn.)


Well, I'm the guy from Toronto who ordered the 4 Thief DVDs and "Gods of Los Angeles"... that sucks about your DVD burner, though. Don't any of them come with a 1-year warranty or something? It may cost more initially, but buying cheap often costs more in the end, I find.
For the latest "Thief and the Cobbler" news, go HERE (and go to the last page)
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Great news - I met my friend the scanner operator today and he gave me an utterly beautiful set of scan files of that poster. He hasn't descreened them, but I think that can be done in software. They are amazing! He says he scanned it in 8 parts and stitched them together, but you really can't tell. I'll get a copy in the post to you ASAP ocp.
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That's great news about the scanner!



Eugene - I sent out your order ages ago, last time I mailed things out. That was at least 2 weeks ago, when was that ....

Why hasn't it arrived yet?
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Well, no - you couldn't have sent my package any earlier than August 29, which is only 8 days ago and I think you sent out everyone's DVDs a few days before that. Anyway, like I said I don't really expect it to arrive too soon - things can often take a while to move between the US and Canada because Canadian Customs take their damn sweet time with it. I'd only start worrying a bit if it hasn't arrived a month after you sent it.

Great news about the poster, macronencer! Will the scan be available anywhere for the rest of us to see/download (a lower resolution one, perhaps)?
For the latest "Thief and the Cobbler" news, go HERE (and go to the last page)
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
To tell the truth, I think that as far as doing what needs to be done to get the word out and get Disney more interested in a reconstruction, this project is accomplishing that already.


That's just it; the objective Patrick and I have discussed is more than just a reconstruction. The most ideal situation would be that Disney would not only restore the finished footage, but actually go back and do the rest of the animation (and re-animate the junk that Calvert wrecked or that the artwork doesn't exist for, through referencing of the workprints and such), preferrably bringing in surviving (and still active) Thief veterans such as Roy Naisbitt, Alex Williams, Holger Leihe, Gary Dunn, and Andreas Wessel-Therhorn, and other Williams protegés such as Eric Goldberg, to animate scenes and help the Disney crew get the Williams look down. (And come on, how many animators would turn down the opportunity to help finish Richard Williams's magnum opus?)

Williams left enough stuff behind that Disney could finish the film without actually having to bring him in to directly work on it. Stanley Kubrick, though not directly involved, offered advice for the restoration of Spartacus, and Richard Donner did the same for the new recut of Superman II (which is one of the recent happenings which has convinced me that such a project is indeed possible).

This is wishful thinking, I know, but it would probably only require $10 million and about a year of work, and could well be out in theaters by 2008 if we started pushing for it now. A Variety ad and full-scale (dare I say, OriginalTrilogy.com-scale) campaign, publicized on other forums, including professional animation-related ones such as Animation Nation, AWN, and The Animation Show, and at places like ASIFA, could help drum up enough voices of support, both inside and outside the animation industry, to convince Disney that it would be profitable to undertake a REAL project to complete the film. I mean, with people like John Lasseter (who, being the ultimate animation geek, almost certainly admires The Thief and the Cobbler) and Don Hahn in high places, the chances of this actually happening are greater now than ever before.

I know it's an utterly insane idea, but it would finally bring a fitting conclusion to the decades-long ordeal...and I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would give their left kidney to see a 100% complete and true to Williams's vision version of The Thief and the Cobbler.
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That would be nice, and certainly there are people at Disney who would probably be interested in it, but it's very unlikely to happen.

You say casually that it would take "only" ten million dollars. I think it could be done for much much less than that, but either way, that's a huge investment that Disney would only make expecting to make that money back, and that's very unlikely to happen.

The biggest problem is that as far as I can tell this isn't something Richard Williams would be interested in. According to Mo, Richard's position on this movie is to treat it like he died after making it .... just leave him out of it.

Would you want this film completed without Richard's supervision? I suppose pencils could be inked and made all pretty, but the whole thing would be a bit of a stretch.

They were able to finish the Donner cut without Donner's supervision and get his approval. But that's live action, which Donner had mostly already shot.

It's a lovely idea to finish the film, and I think that the people you mentioned would be more than capable of doing so - roughly the whole 1990 crew is still alive and working.

But that's not the drive of this thread for me. We wouldn't put an ad in Variety because that's not only incredibly expensive, but also confrontational.

I advise caution. We're treading in difficult waters here, and this project has gotten interest because it's grown slowly and steadily.

You have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk.


Or, to put it clearly, someone would first have to agree to release Richard's cut of the film on DVD in an unfinished state before anyone would agree to spend money finishing it.

The second option, of finishing the film, is a difficult and unlikely situation.

The first option, of just releasing it as intended, in unfinished state a la the Recobbled Cut, is not quite so crazy. That won't be happening tomorrow, but I can imagine it happening someday. Perhaps even someday soon.

Gilliam put that ad in Variety because he wanted to shame and insult the studio who had ruined his film.

I don't want to shame or insult Disney. I have a great deal of respect for the people currently running it, and so do you.

For me this project is not an insult or an attack or a call to arms. It's a statement.

"Hey, that Thief and the Cobbler movie. Someone should put that out on DVD."


Once that happens, once the general public is prepared to see and appreciate this film, and maybe Richard might even be willing to discuss it again, maybe then, in some future, the finishing could take place.
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Well stated.

Looking at past reconstructions of films (live-action), a lot of the more complex ones nearly always had at least minimal directorial assistance. Napoleon was reconstructed by Kevin Brownlow while consulting an elderly Abel Gance. It was another case of a film with a lot of existing footage left out, but also a lot not meant to be inserted back. Lawrence of Arabia actually had David Lean knee-deep in the project - he made new editorial decisions that time-constraints didn't allow back in 1962. He even directed the voice re-recording needed due to sound recordings being lost over time. Spartacus was restored with minimal input from Kubrick (since he apparently wasn't that fond of it since it was basically a "for hire" project), but he did answer stuff via fax.

However, the ones hacked and gutted rarely do. Orson Welles couldn't offer input on Touch of Evil (only a 40 page memo outlining changes he wanted to the studio release) and obviously couldn't for The Magnificent Ambersons. The latter is further hurt by the fact that we recently lost Robert Wise - the original editor (and supplementary director for some re-shot footage).

It's beating a dead horse, but it wouldn't even be that kind to pull Williams back into this. If he's working on something new, the last thing he needs is to hold off on yet another project so he can work on another. It wouldn't be fair to get "Thief" at the expense of having an unfinished new film. Even if he wanted to give advice, would Williams really have the same viewpoint as he did in 1992? He was always working on a little bit of the film from the 1960s to the early 1990s. I can't imagine how tough it would be to just go back after 15 years hiatus.

That being said, the money spent properly finishing it would at least make it a prestige project. Do you think Disney has made any profit off Destino? At least it could get a limited NY/LA release and qualify for the Best Animated Feature Oscar. It would probably win that, as well as sweeping the Annies.

Fox spent $5 million restoring "The Black Swan" which I hadn't even heard of until the DVD came out. They're selling the disc for $14.98 SRP and will probably never make back just a tenth of that cost. But it's restored and preserved for posterity's sake. Disney could try out a preview screening of the september workprint (perhaps revised for better quality) to guage audience reactions. One idea could be to work out something with Turner Classic Movies to run Who Framed Roger Rabbit and the workprint back-to-back.

If Disney starts a completion/reconstruction now, it doesn't matter if they make money immediately. If it's in the can, it can make money a decade or two later. It worked for Fantasia, Bambi, and Alice in Wonderland... Even without Richard Williams being involved, just the available bootleg materials have given us a really good idea of how it should all be put together correctly. Now imagine access to every bit of existing material (film reels, pencil drawings, cels, backgrounds, storyboards, layouts, voice and music recordings, sound effects, timing sheets, etc)!

Even without Richard Williams participating, it's not like the film could be made any worse than what's already out there.

I'm overly idealist and optimistic, but Disney deserves all the support they can get. I thought a Variety ad would have been a way to get people interested and encourage Disney. No confrontation or ill will like Gilliam's ad. But if it would appear to be confrontational, that's that last thing we need.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Well put, Patrick.

And the Variety ad idea was not intended as some call to arms or expression of outrage, but just a means to help Disney realize that we're out there.

Garrett, I understand your qualms with my idea. I did mention that it was "utterly insane." I did mention that it was "wishful thinking." I've called it a "pipe dream" to Patrick and others. It's just what I said: an "ideal scenario." I know it's unlikely to happen; it's just less unlikely to happen than before this whole Recobbled Cut thing.

I know I'm in over my head with my ideas. It's just something to shoot for. Something to aim at. I always assumed the ultimate outcome of this whole thing would be Disney eventually completing the film as Williams intended before it was taken away from him. It'd be nice for Williams to be alive to see a final version, and be proud of it.

I agree with Garrett about "you have to crawl before you can walk." People with grand schemes need people to pull everything back down to earth. And vice versa.
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Hi all,
What a massive thread!

I've been trying to track down Love Me, Love Me, Love Me for ages. Every year i fire off an email to Mo Sutton, who is Richard Williams' producer, to ask if there are any plans for a release on a compilation. On 22 Jan 2006 she said "There are plans for a commercially produced copy of "Love Me, Love Me" but I can't tell you exactly when it will be available" .. so fingers crossed for that one. There's a Welsh animation group which had a visit from Richard in October 2005 and he showed the film to them as part of his talk, so it's definitely about.

http://www.avql23.dsl.pipex.com/pics/misc/sb1.jpg

http://www.avql23.dsl.pipex.com/pics/misc/sb0.jpg

cheers!

El.
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Well, you're doing better than me, I don't have Mo Sutton's email address! =) (Would like it if you could provide.)

Much of Richard's early work is hard to come by - and I haven't come by it.



I'm not in contact with Richard and Mo at the moment and I'm told they didn't get my letter/package either ... which is sad as I'd included some nice drawings and things.




Hm.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
I'm not in contact with Richard and Mo at the moment and I'm told they didn't get my letter/package either ... which is sad as I'd included some nice drawings and things.




Hm.


I don't suppose the package had a tracking number, did it?...
For the latest "Thief and the Cobbler" news, go HERE (and go to the last page)