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The Artistic Vision (TM Luca$hFilm)

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Isn't it true that Luca$h originally wanted to film 'Flash Gordon' but found that De Laurentiis had the rights. Then he wanted to do 'Dune' and the same thing happened. And he wanted to make films that emulated the lightweight, low-budget serials he watched as a kid?

So, was the Emperor going to be like Ming The Merciless? And are Luke and Han basically Paul Atreides and Flash Gordon? He certainly namechecks the "spice" of 'Dune' a couple of times (spice-mines of Kessel, spice freighter).

Perhaps Luca$h really did want to make fluff. The first one is fun, but has serious overtones. The next was very dark. He took back control for the third and made a jokey movie with serious bits. The PT largely follow this pattern too.

I wonder if he wants to remake the saga as a mindless entertainment and that's what his constant tinkerings will lead to? He's trying to tone down the seriousness and up the effects and laughs. He never wanted to make a sweeping 'Ring Des Nibelungen' epic, he wanted a daft concept that allowed him to indulge in special effects and costumes.

Maybe ESB was the worst thing that could have happened, as far as Luca$h is concerned, because it started the idea that SW should be a serious-minded exploration of the human condition and not just an excuse for cool spaceships and fighting with laser swords.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I cannot confirm or deny what other properties Lucas might've been interested in -- I've always heard he wanted to buy the rights to Star Trek, which is about as un-Star Wars as space opera can get -- but I agree that he's more interested in fluff, marketing, and playing with new toys under the guise of "experimental film-making." That's not to say he's unaware of the more serious aspects that evolved in the OT or the gravity which they lend the films.

He put a few attempts at a moral or drama into the PT, but they fell flat -- as did his attempts to explain them in the media. "You see, Anakin's problem is he holds onto what he really wants, he can't let go, so he becomes evil." That's the kind of broad moralistic statement that withstands superficial scrutiny, but in the context of the film -- if you look at what Anakin was holding onto (the life of his wife) and why he was doing it (presumably love for her and his child) -- it doesn't hold water. (In fact, I don't think the statement withstands even superficial scrutiny. There's nothing inherently wrong with desiring things.)

Same thing with his grand statements about "how a democracy becomes a dictatorship." A ninja-magician cons a frog-donkey-man into giving a speech in the worst-constituted parliament ever seen on film, gets himself elected chancellor ("Chancellor! Me!"), connives to secretly raise two separate warring armies, and utilizes another ninja-magician to wipe out the last of his opposition. Again, there are some superficial similarities between this and other autocratic governments -- dictators tend to wipe out their opposition and take control of the armed forces -- but the memoirs of the Caesars this is not.

I suppose fluff is okay, if that's your thing, but these hare-brained attempts to imbue it with gravitas just make Lucas look foolish.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
A ninja-magician cons a frog-donkey-man into giving a speech in the worst-constituted parliament ever seen on film


Now that made my day!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Lucas said many times that he loved watching Flash Gordon and serials as a kid, and based Star Wars roughly on them. I've heard the whole Lucas wanted to make Flash Gordon but couldn't get the rights thing, but I've also heard that isn't true. I think that people got that idea from hearing Lucas talk about watching Flash Gordon as a kid, and wanting to bring something like that back. But not Flash Gordon specifically. It wouldn't of made sense, especially considering the lenghts he went to to insure that he kept the rights to Star Wars, and not give them up to the studio. As for the Dune one, I have no idea on that one. The Star Trek idea I don't beleive, considering that Paramount had largely forgotten about Star Trek until Star Wars got big, and the Paramount execs were sitting around trying to figure out a sci-fi project they could come out with like Star Wars, and someone remembered Trek.

Lucas might of wanted to make fluff, and then got more deep and psychological after things like ESB. Indiana Jones would somewhat fit in with this, and is certainly a serial-type hero. Many of the scenes in that one were directly taken from serials made in the 30's and 40's.
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I have a tape of the SW cast on the Mike Douglas show in 1977. Mark Hamill talked about how GL tried to get the rights to Flash Gordon from King Features Syndicate, and how it was a good thing he didn't or Nick Nolte would be sitting there instead of him.

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Originally posted by: Number20
The Star Trek idea I don't beleive, considering that Paramount had largely forgotten about Star Trek until Star Wars got big, and the Paramount execs were sitting around trying to figure out a sci-fi project they could come out with like Star Wars, and someone remembered Trek.


Not true. Google The God Thing, Planet of the Titans, and Phase II. It's just a weird combination of Lucas and Roddenberry myth, this idea that Star Wars revitalized science fiction then Roddenberry showed up at Paramount the next day with a shooting script and the Enterprise bridge crew in costume. In any case, for the rumor to be true, Lucas would have had to have made his inquiries in the early seventies, when Star Trek was (IIRC) still a force in syndication and an unlikely project for a budding auteur to take on.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
I cannot confirm or deny what other properties Lucas might've been interested in -- I've always heard he wanted to buy the rights to Star Trek, which is about as un-Star Wars as space opera can get -- but I agree that he's more interested in fluff, marketing, and playing with new toys under the guise of "experimental film-making." That's not to say he's unaware of the more serious aspects that evolved in the OT or the gravity which they lend the films.

He put a few attempts at a moral or drama into the PT, but they fell flat -- as did his attempts to explain them in the media. "You see, Anakin's problem is he holds onto what he really wants, he can't let go, so he becomes evil." That's the kind of broad moralistic statement that withstands superficial scrutiny, but in the context of the film -- if you look at what Anakin was holding onto (the life of his wife) and why he was doing it (presumably love for her and his child) -- it doesn't hold water. (In fact, I don't think the statement withstands even superficial scrutiny. There's nothing inherently wrong with desiring things.)

Same thing with his grand statements about "how a democracy becomes a dictatorship." A ninja-magician cons a frog-donkey-man into giving a speech in the worst-constituted parliament ever seen on film, gets himself elected chancellor ("Chancellor! Me!"), connives to secretly raise two separate warring armies, and utilizes another ninja-magician to wipe out the last of his opposition. Again, there are some superficial similarities between this and other autocratic governments -- dictators tend to wipe out their opposition and take control of the armed forces -- but the memoirs of the Caesars this is not.

I suppose fluff is okay, if that's your thing, but these hare-brained attempts to imbue it with gravitas just make Lucas look foolish.


That's a great post. I can't stand the nonsense that Lucas tries to preach about in his latest films. In fact, the hypocritical ethics he implied in Revenge of the Sith are offensive to me. Even worse is the way he tries to change the meaning of original trilogy events like Vader's last-minute repentance.

As for my opinion concerning this thread's topic, I believe Lucas didn't like the serious depth that the original Star Wars portrayed. If anything, that was probaby an accident on his part (emulating great films). Having those elements further explored and added upon in Empire probably left Lucas very unhappy. It seems his ultimate vision was making money and in that he believed super-happy adventures for children would earn him the most.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I agree, Tiptup. I think his friendship with Coppola during the 70s must have influenced his filmmaking. Once he started to get full control of his own material he started to move away from that and indulge his inner child.

The connotations of this train of thought are that the saga I imagined from the OOT and hence my expectations for the PT were not in line with Luca$h' artistic vision because, as he has said, the OOT is not in line with it.

I wanted something he was never going to deliver.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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If anything, that was probaby an accident on his part (emulating great films).


This is so true when it comes to art. Artists try to emulate the stuff that has influenced them and somewhere along the way, it takes on a life of its own and becomes special in some way. This is exactly what happened to Star Wars. The unbelieveable part is Lucas trying to backtrack on it with ROTJ. It's like he was deliberately sabotaging his own work by "kiddifying" it or something.

Most artists would DIE to be in Lucas' shoes back in the 70s. They would have loved to create something that unique and special, but Lucas just pisses on it. Really sad actually. After seeing the PT and what he's done to the OT, Star Wars simply represents to me one big missed opportunity. It could have taken its place right up there with Lord Of The Rings as one of the great fictional pieces of all time and Lucas could have been right up there with Tolkien, but that's not the case anymore.

In time, all Lucas will be remembered for is his technical contributions to the film industry and the constant tinkering with Star Wars will eventually negate any achievements he's made as a storyteller.
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I've been watching the animated Flash Gordon series from 1979 on DVD, and in the commentary they mention having the movie rights, which they sold to Dino DeLaurentis to fund the tv version. (Filmation was initially going to make a live action Flash tv-movie, but the script became too expensive to shoot that way.) Which means either Filmation was in the right place and right time or King Features was more interested in having something done with Flash post Star Wars...
In the making of book for the first Star Trek movie, Lucas was one of many people considered for the director's chair. This was slightly before SW was out, (still referred to as "The Star Wars" in a Paramount memo) and the book doesn't elaborate if Roddenberry and Co. actually talked with him.

Where were you in '77?

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He did try to get the rights to flash gordon.

some other little known facts:

both spielberg and lucas at one time considered shooting lord of the rings, george even wanted to do the hobbit hence willow. There is dialogue between luke and obi wan in the third draft script that was lifted from the hobbit.

according to kurtz at one point the film so clearly mirrored the film hidden fortress by kurosawa they were actually going to buy the rights to do the remake with all japanese actor's for star wars.

Lucas had to edit out dialogue and references to several franchises namely the works of one edgar rice burroughs because lucas liberally borrowed from both tarzan and john carter of mars, he was going to be sued by edgar rice burroughs inc. or at least owe them money for the copyrights use.

The dune references though shortened are still there and he was going to be sued by herbert or at least herbert considered it before his death.

Plus the E.E. "doc" smith lensman material and the asimov books had to be somehow less allluded to.

His first story treatment for the film was taken from his friend donald richie's synopsis of hidden fortress from the films of akira kurosawa by the same author.

Go to the site starwarsorigins and you'll see the sci fi books lucas stole the concept for lightsaber's from.

He stole the concept for the galactic empire from a whole slew of asimov novels namely the foundation trilogy, from which there is a planet korrel and it's inhabitant's are korrelians. he stole the capitol planet trantor from those novels and it emerged later as corusscant. he stole photon torpedoes and tractor beams from star trek all though in star wars he called them proton torpedoes .

The jedi knights are an amalgamation of the holy order of the knights templar, the lensman of the galactic patrol, feudal period samurai as well as ronin.

The biggest impact on Han Solo would be the films of John Ford namely the ones in which John Wayne starred.

The Kiber crystal was a very badly disguised numinous object, etc the one ring of power from lord of the rings.


"dictators tend to wipe out their opposition and take control of the armed forces -- but the memoirs of the Caesars this is not." it's supposed to be a refrence to machiavelli's the prince and Sun-tzu's the art of war.

The mystical poet always said keep your friends close and your enemies closer, as well as the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Michiaveli said something like the ends justify the means, a very lucas like philosophy as well as that of the sith lords.

Further more this is a reference to rome they killed caesar julius to have a democracy and then they god ahead and reconstitute the empire and set his adopted son really his nephew up as imperator Caesar Augustus was really Octavius or Octavian, and augustus is where we get the term august body and so on in politics.

Dare I say it, the emperor was based on Nixon when lucas first wrote star wars, as the liberals perceived a very orwellian type double speaker and such as well as being based on a wizard of Oz type concept always being the dude pulling the strings behind the curtain. No woner he was first called COS DASHIT and was also based on Hitler according to the screenplay he had a "wicked moustache".

several Lucas source books for star wars: the christian bible (he had like a cliffnotes version when he was writing the screenplays) The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the republic by Plato , 1984 by orwell and brave new world by Aldous Huxley. The hero with a thousand faces and the 4 books masks of god series, the flight of the wild gander and the inner reaches of outer space by joseph Campbell. Sun-tzu , art of war in english translation.machiavelli's the prince


Being revised in the late 90's it's no wonder and after september 11th 2001 that lucas found his political footing for the new trilogy in the "new" bush adminatration. Lucas called Valorum as reference to Bill Clinton.

Is it an accident that Both Palpatine and George Bush used a situation of crisis to grab more power for the executive branch of a government?

In star wars it's the seperatists in real life it's bin ladin and al quiada.

for those of you who go in for that type of star wars vs. star trek thing think of this little known tidbit, lucas in college days at Usc (probalbly as a graduate student) was a fan of the original star trek his favorite episode was the corbomite maneuver. also consider that if not for the success of star trek tos star wars probalbly never would've gotten made. Yes star wars ironically lead to star trek being made into a popular film franchise whose effects were done by none other than ILM for most of the films, whose effects artists were huge fans of science fiction and star trek.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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If by "led to a film franchise" you mean "got the second series aborted after writing and casting the first season, and tabled a number of scripts until a writers' strike in the 80s," yeah, Star Wars did that ... as did the failure to launch the Paramount network , the success of CE3K, and a number of other things. If not for this combination of events, we'd have seen a lot more of Kirk's adventures. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to you.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
In star wars it's the seperatists in real life it's bin ladin and his crazy ass islamic buffoons whome are called terrorists, but are really just asshole's and bloody murderers and lawless cuthroats.


Now thats an inflammatory remark and no mistake. Could we keep this sort of thing in the 'Politics' thread in the 'Off Topic' forum?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Saying that Lucas stole every idea from a bunch of authors before him, while giving the previous authors a pass on what they "borrowed" is complete hogwash. Sure a lot of ideas were recycled in the O-OT, but name another story or movie after 1970 (I picked a random year, I'm sure you could go back even further) that didn't borrow ideas from someone else. There hasn't been a completely original story in some time. What makes new stories that rehash old ideas look like they're fresh is the way they're presented. Lord of the Rings is a perfect example. It wasn't the first fantasy story and it wasn't the first story about a ring. It was the first story where the quest was to destroy the ring instead of to simply find a magic ring (I'm getting this from the documentary, so it may not have really been the first). That's what made it fresh and original. The only other thing that was new was calling halflings Hobbits (which I believe Tolkien copyrighted). Everything else was a rehash of old ideas.
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Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
Being revised in the late 90's it's no wonder and after september 11th 2001 that lucas found his political footing for the new trilogy in the "new" bush adminatration. Lucas called Valorum as reference to Bill Clinton.

Is it an accident that Both Palpatine and George Bush used a situation of crisis to grab more power for the executive branch of a government?

In star wars it's the seperatists in real life it's bin ladin and al quiada.
I don't really see how these fit into the films. How is Valorum Clinton-like? If I recall correctly, Attack of the Clones was filming in summer of 2000. Bush wasn't even the president at the time.

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I was reminded of something either Whiners or JediRandy said a while back - something along the lines of us being upset because Luca$h doesn't want to make the films we want to see. That's why I started this thread. It just suddenly struck me that maybe that's right. Other people shaped the OOT (especially ESB) into something that Luca$h never wanted (although he is always changing his mind, I know!). My expectations of Luca$h's saga were based on elements that were not introduced by Luca$h.

This does not mean that I think any higher of the man or the PT. But does it make his output and behaviour since 1980 more understandable, do you think?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: lordjedi
Saying that Lucas stole every idea from a bunch of authors before him, while giving the previous authors a pass on what they "borrowed" is complete hogwash. Sure a lot of ideas were recycled in the O-OT, but name another story or movie after 1970 (I picked a random year, I'm sure you could go back even further) that didn't borrow ideas from someone else. There hasn't been a completely original story in some time. What makes new stories that rehash old ideas look like they're fresh is the way they're presented. Lord of the Rings is a perfect example. It wasn't the first fantasy story and it wasn't the first story about a ring. It was the first story where the quest was to destroy the ring instead of to simply find a magic ring (I'm getting this from the documentary, so it may not have really been the first). That's what made it fresh and original. The only other thing that was new was calling halflings Hobbits (which I believe Tolkien copyrighted). Everything else was a rehash of old ideas.


That's what the whole point of Hero With a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell (which he cites as a heavy influence in Empire of Dreams). There is no new story under the sun, and it is our duty to tell and retell these myths and legends to future generations...
MTFBWY. Always.

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Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes
Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
Being revised in the late 90's it's no wonder and after september 11th 2001 that lucas found his political footing for the new trilogy in the "new" bush adminatration. Lucas called Valorum as reference to Bill Clinton.

Is it an accident that Both Palpatine and George Bush used a situation of crisis to grab more power for the executive branch of a government?

In star wars it's the seperatists in real life it's bin ladin and al quiada.
I don't really see how these fit into the films. How is Valorum Clinton-like? If I recall correctly, Attack of the Clones was filming in summer of 2000. Bush wasn't even the president at the time.


Didn't people say similar things about racial stereotypes in TPM? The "asian accents" of the Nemodians, Jar Jar sounding like a Jamaican, and Watto being the Jew. I honestly never noticed any of it, so I'd say it's more about what people had in their own heads then anything Lucas did intentionally. Anakin's "virgin birth" was also bandied about a lot, like Lucas was trying to inject Christianity into Star Wars. Lucas' general response was "oops, I didn't see it that way at all". I honestly believe he didn't. I'm sure if he'd stepped back a bit and took an honest look at it, he might have realised what the public perception would be, but I really don't think it ever dawned on him.

The only film that could possibly resemble current events, IMHO, is ROTS. Some of the conservative talk shows I listen to were talking about it before it came out and I remember thinking that it was all in their heads. Then I went to see it. Admittedly my opinion was a little colored at that point, but I could understand what they were saying. I don't believe Lucas ever denied any of it either, so it's very possible he injected ROTS with quite a bit of current events.

Of course, as I rewatched The Two Towers the other day, I realised that current events could certainly apply to that movie as well. Knowing the history of the book and how it deliberately didn't represent the events during which it was written helped to dispel that though.
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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I don't think Lucas had intended for the aliens to be racist either. I think he was simply trying to make them sound exotic. Only problem is they still spoke English and I assume it's fairly hard to create a new accent. I personally never thought the Neimoidians sounded Asian. Actually, after watching "Kingdom of Heaven", they sound a lot like the Syrian actor that played Saladin in the movie.
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You know...I was thinking on this whole artistic vision thing a bit. I think it's total bullshit. I think the whole Star Wars franchise exists now simply to make money. I know...no surprise there, right? But look at how the other LFL stuff is handled.

The Indy movies are on DVD, but that's cuz Spielberg has a stake in them. I don't think the handling of the Indy movies is solely by LFL. Spielberg has some say, that's for sure. So we get them on DVD.

The Young Indy series is a different matter. It's been stated by McCallum that the series is finished, but they aren't releasing it until Indy 4 comes out. Why the hell are they doing that? When you finish work on a DVD release, it only makes sense to put it out there. Lucas never does that. There ALWAYS has to be some kind of BIG event tied with the release of a LFL product. It's like there's some kind of marketing strategy for the whole thing. Release something in the fall in preparation for something big in the Spring. This has happened a few times already with the Clone Wars, Episode 3, the SE DVDs and so forth, not to mention the video game they always push at the same time.
This is all carefully thought out to bring in maximum dollars.

Makes me think that Lucas just made the prequels simply to put the franchise in the spotlight again and now he's not going to let it go until he milks it for all it's worth. And I'm more likely to believe that the SEs exist so he can screw his ex-wife out of money.

I don't think this guy is an artist at all. He's just another motherfucker selling out to make a shitload of money. Not like he needed it though...or maybe he did. All those companies have to cost a lot to run.....
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Originally posted by: Cable-X1
You know...I was thinking on this whole artistic vision thing a bit. I think it's total bullshit. I think the whole Star Wars franchise exists now simply to make money. I know...no surprise there, right? But look at how the other LFL stuff is handled.

The Indy movies are on DVD, but that's cuz Spielberg has a stake in them. I don't think the handling of the Indy movies is solely by LFL. Spielberg has some say, that's for sure. So we get them on DVD.

The Young Indy series is a different matter. It's been stated by McCallum that the series is finished, but they aren't releasing it until Indy 4 comes out. Why the hell are they doing that? When you finish work on a DVD release, it only makes sense to put it out there. Lucas never does that. There ALWAYS has to be some kind of BIG event tied with the release of a LFL product. It's like there's some kind of marketing strategy for the whole thing. Release something in the fall in preparation for something big in the Spring. This has happened a few times already with the Clone Wars, Episode 3, the SE DVDs and so forth, not to mention the video game they always push at the same time.
This is all carefully thought out to bring in maximum dollars.

Makes me think that Lucas just made the prequels simply to put the franchise in the spotlight again and now he's not going to let it go until he milks it for all it's worth. And I'm more likely to believe that the SEs exist so he can screw his ex-wife out of money.

I don't think this guy is an artist at all. He's just another motherfucker selling out to make a shitload of money. Not like he needed it though...or maybe he did. All those companies have to cost a lot to run.....
Yep, I TOTALLY agree! I can remember way back in '97 when the SEs came out and word spread of Lucas(s) directing the PT. The first thing I said to myself and others was, "Uh oh, these are going to suck BAD!" I had that opinion because of the way Lucas(s) had whored out the trilogy up to that point, and also because the best SW movies (to me) weren't even directed by him! I don't think the man has an "artistic vision" anymore. Well scratch that, he does, but it has very little to do with the true meaning of SW and what it originally was.

Lucas never does that. There ALWAYS has to be some kind of BIG event tied with the release of a LFL product. It's like there's some kind of marketing strategy for the whole thing. Release something in the fall in preparation for something big in the Spring.

And exactly why I am considering NOT buying the 09/12 release now. After further thought, I DO think they are releasing it for the fans that have never seen it. They will then most definitely want it in future releases now (if nothing else than for "collection" purposes) whether alone, in a boxed set, etc.

See, the die-hard OUT fans already love it so Lucas(s) doesn't need them in his mind; he can wait as long as he wants and he still has their purchase if the release is done correctly. But IMO all of the younger and/or new fans will most certainly like the OUT now that they have had a chance to see it. Imagine the hype Lucas(s) will create when he tells those same people, "Hey guys, remember those OUT movies you saw for the first time via the 09/12 release, you know, the ones you loved due to [nostalgia/"missing" scenes/insert the reason here]? Well guess what....they are coming out cleaned up and restored! Anamorphic, choice of audio, bonus features on the discs...". No matter how Lucas(s) chooses to sell those, whether in a mega-boxed set, alone, whatever, they are guaranteed to sell very well!

So yeah, I really feel like this 09/12 release is a way to A) clear old SE stock for next year and B) rope new OUT fans in.