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How George Lucas created the O-OT fanbase...

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 (Edited)

There has been so much talk on the Sept. 12th release, the PT, the SE, etc, but I was wondering the other day how did SW get to this point? I really believe this was not Lucas’s intention, and I think he knows he is in a quandry now. This is why the O-OT is being released reluctantly by Lucas, but sort of half-assed in the same way.

I honestly think that Lucas is in so much of a box, I really don’t think he knew of this fanbase of O-OT fans. How big this fanbase is, we will never know, but just the fact that the DVD’s are getting released even in average quality, says that there is some demand. If you think about it, why wouldn’t Lucas release the '97 SE as more bonus material just to gauge the market and see if there is a demand for that?

The ironic thing about the O-OT market is I believe it has been created by Lucas solely on him trying to tie the saga’s together, and as he tries in every release to do this, he pushes many fans who were maybe on the bubble to the O-OT side.

If Lucas would have just left the OT alone before releasing the PT, or made the SE just a one time thing in '97 just to give a different spin on the movies, but stop at there. If the PT existed now, and the O-OT were released as the real 04 DVD versions, and then this huge saga boxset in 2007 with the O-OT + PT, then I believe many fans, even though not huge fans of the PT, would not have a problem being a saga fan of all 6 movies. I know many OT fans who don’t like ROTJ, but that never precluded them from buying the OT boxset in the early 90’s just to get SW & ESB.

What Lucas has done now is made me look at the O-OT as JUST 4-6, not part of the saga. I look at the saga now as the PT + OT/SE, cause that is his vision as of 2006. The O-OT has given me an excuse not to recognize the PT, not to buy any future saga boxsets that I probably would have bought if the O-OT still existed in Lucas’s mind.

For whatever we want to say about this release, Lucas released it, and didn’t release the 97 SE versions, so he knows something that fans want this version. But his biggest miscalculation is that I view the O-OT as just that, not part of the saga, not part of the PT storywise, just a 3 movie trilogy from 77-83 without any major changes, except minor ones like inserting the crawl in 1981, etc.

Thank you Mr. Lucas, you have made the decision very easy for alot of fans who thought the PT was OK, and were still debating if 1-6 was worth it as the SW story of the future. With the O-OT, that is not your vision now with the current story you wrote, so 4-6 is the way I see it, and you probably will lose a boatload of money from my wallet in the future, cause I was one of those SW diehards who bought anything with the SW logo on it. But now, if it doesn’t have the O-OT, no thanks.

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Originally posted by: CO
If Lucas would have just left the OT alone before releasing the PT, or made the SE just a one time thing in '97 just to give a different spin on the movies, but stop at there. If the PT existed now, and the O-OT were released as the real 04 DVD versions, and then this huge saga boxset in 2007 with the O-OT + PT, then I believe many fans, even though not huge fans of the PT, would not have a problem being a saga fan of all 6 movies.


In my case, all he had to have done was make the original movies available, and then I would have at least remained a tepid fan of his beloved "saga." Now his vision represents the very thing that is completely ruining Star Wars and I want nothing to do with it. To hell with his contradictions and his changes.

I just read an interview of his where he said the original Star Wars was only 25% of what he wanted. If that's true, why should he go back and fuck up an already good film with his additions? He should have just made all the movies brand new and not bothered to change the old. Then his Saga would truly tie together. Though he doesn't like Star Wars enough for that kind of commitment I'd guess. That would be too much work for our lethargic filmaker.

Otherwise, you make a good point about how Lucas is now stuck in a problem of his own making. If he turns off a lot of his older fans with his half-assed approach to absolutely everything, then that's the way it will be. Star Wars will become some cheap kiddy franchise that most people will grow out of by the time they're 20 and that's all it will ever be from then on. Then Star Wars will die unless preservationists who know the truth about the series have some say in the matter.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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GL's horrid alterations of the OT have pretty much turned me off to anything else he wants to put out there.
I really don't care anymore- he's destroyed all enthusiasm I may have had for future releases. I'll buy the DVDs on 9/12 - then that's it. No more. Unless the OOT is remastered and released in anamorphic DVD or on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD then I don't give a crap about anything else.

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I agree the OOT is the only Star Wars product im interested now, though I dont mind the majority of the SE changes and I dont mind the Prequels either,but I have no real interest in the the whole 6 film saga at all, so I couldnt care less about changes which tie the films together etc. All I want now is the performances and the films which Ive seen for the last so many years, because there are good, and like the nostalgia when watching those old films for two hours, had this situation with changes and the whole saga thing been done years ago when I was younger I would have been interested more in Prequel tie ins and what not, like the younger fans are today, but at my age all I want to do sit back and watch the old films, be entertained for two hours with a bit of nostalgia thrown in, so I am another one cant see myself purchasing further boxsets or releases without the OOT as the new editions wont interest me and I couldnt care less about any future bonus material stuff such as documentries etc.....
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Just to play Devil's Advocate ... I would have to wonder why, on the potential eve of either Blu Ray or HD DVD becoming the new high quality DVD standard, anyone would bother to make much effort at a quality DVD release.

Would we all care to eat some crow with our words if a pristine, meticulously-restored and gloriously anamorphic set of the theatrical OT films were released on whichever high-def version becomes the defacto standard, as soon as the dust settles from that competition?



Ok, I'm just dreaming. But, if it were anybody but George ... I'd expect them to hold off on the high quality release until the Betamax war of the early 21st Century is decided.
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Yep, and exactly what I said in the T-Bone thread:

I'd love to be optimistic here, but I too am REALLY starting to doubt if the OOT will be inlcuded in the '07 uber-box set.

I think LFL is banking on the DVD's demise and they will focus any and all OOT efforts into the next media format...


I can *sort of* (key phrase there) see the logic in them waiting to release a high quality version of the OOT on the next media format and focusing all of their efforts there. But A) how many people will buy into the new technology right away? DVD is superior to VHS but look at how long it took the market to completely convert and B) some people may never, ever buy into the technology and feel that DVD is good enough (and for many people, it will be). Don't those fans deserve something too?

What a mess and we shouldn't even need to have this discussion!
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I dont think we will ever see it again in all honesty, I think they pretty much drew the line with this release, and I just cant see uncle George getting his wallet out to spend the bucks bringing it upto standards for any type of proper release seeing as he isnt keen on it anyway. This has been a diaster and this DVD release doesnt look it going to be sell shiploads anyway, so I do think this is the last release,

The hopes for a good OOT IMO lie with the X0 team, and not some future release from Lucasfilm.........
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Originally posted by: ESHBG some people may never, ever buy into the technology and feel that DVD is good enough (and for many people, it will be). Don't those fans deserve something too?


Count me in as one of those fans who are very happy with my DVD's that are Anamorphic & 5.1 Dolby Digital. I have an HD TV, but I really don't have any desire to even buy an HD-DVD player in the future. I still feel it will be a niche market like Laserdisk was, because I just don't see the mainstream person who is not a quality nut going out and buying an HDTV, and an HD-DVD player. If they didn't do it with Laserdisks, when they were clearly better than VHS, why would they do it now when DVD is great quality.

To me it is like listening to a movie in DTS and Dolby Digital, sure DTS are alittle bit better, but Dolby Digital is still good enough, where it is not that big of a difference. There were DVD's such as Superbits movies released by Columbia of existing catalogs titles that had alittle better picture and DTS sound, and I have never bought one.

If Lucas would have put this O-OT release out in September with Anamorphic & 5.1 Dolby Digital, I would be happy forever, and wouldn't care about anything else that concerns SW in the future. DVD is great quality, and I am satisfied with all my movies that are remastered in great quality, just as I have been happy with all my music CD's since I bought a CD player in 1989. Even if a better CD format came out, I would not buy it, cause all my CD are 'good' enough for me, just like DVD is 'good' enough too.

I just think there isn't THAT much of a huge quality difference that will make me run out to buy an HD-DVD player. When I bought a DVD player in 1998, the quality was so much better than VHS, I could never watch VHS again. DVD has satisfied me since 1998, and I don't need to waste any more money for alittle better quality.

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Lucas could be belittling Star Wars on purpose. In interviews over the years when people bring up how great and mythic, and MEMORABLE the story and characters he would always say, "Oh the stories are not what will be remembered, but the TECHNOLOGY" -- something along those lines. It always took me aback when he said things like that. Of course he'd been pushing technology along all this time, but people truly loved the stories themselves...not so much anymore now that they really suck without other writers cleaning up his plots and dialogue. Go ahead Lucas, make your dream of technology being greater than a human story come true. Your stories suck now.
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Well, if that's exactly what he wanted, he totally screwed up with the OT, didn't he? I guess that's why he keeps tinkering with the TECHNOLOGY of the original movies, in the hopes that it will one day overshadow the story just like he always wanted.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: CO Even if a better CD format came out, I would not buy it.....

It has- it's called Super Audio CD (SACD) and it is nearly dead due to a format war with DVD-Audio, despite the fact that there are now universal players on the market (that play both formats, including CDs), and despite the fact that the audio quaility of both is far superior to CDs. Besides, people seem to prefer listen to music in the crappy mp3 format for some reason.

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SACD/DVD-A is transparent to CD audio for most people in most situations. (Apply the Nyquist theorem to the CD spec and see what happens.) The only real advantages to SACD/DVD-A are longer programs, more channels, and (usually) an effort by the producers to put together a better mix than appears on the CD version. But they have the disadvantage of being expensive and difficult rip -- if not outright impossible at this time.

EDIT: But HDTV is awesome, and clearly superior to NTSC DVD. The sooner we get lots of optical media for it, the better.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
I dont think we will ever see it again in all honesty, I think they pretty much drew the line with this release, and I just cant see uncle George getting his wallet out to spend the bucks bringing it upto standards for any type of proper release seeing as he isnt keen on it anyway. This has been a diaster and this DVD release doesnt look it going to be sell shiploads anyway, so I do think this is the last release,

The hopes for a good OOT IMO lie with the X0 team, and not some future release from Lucasfilm.........


I agree.



LEIA: Help us X-O team, you're our only hope!


OBI-WAN: That '06 release was our last hope...

YODA: No. There is another...
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
I dont think we will ever see it again in all honesty, I think they pretty much drew the line with this release, and I just cant see uncle George getting his wallet out to spend the bucks bringing it upto standards for any type of proper release seeing as he isnt keen on it anyway.

I think the most important factor by far is money. If Lucas thinks he can earn more money off a proper OOT release than it takes to produce it in the first place, then it will come out at some point. Back in the day before the release of the SE, I vaguely remember reading on one of the SE fan sites (I think it was red4.net if anyone remembers that) that every single frame of the OOT was restored and scanned in very high resolution to be preserved on digital media for the future. Does anyone else have any recollection of this? If this is indeed correct, I have no doubts whatsoever that, sooner or later, we will get all the versions of the OOT we can wish for.

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: CO
If Lucas would have just left the OT alone before releasing the PT, or made the SE just a one time thing in '97 just to give a different spin on the movies, but stop at there. If the PT existed now, and the O-OT were released as the real 04 DVD versions, and then this huge saga boxset in 2007 with the O-OT + PT, then I believe many fans, even though not huge fans of the PT, would not have a problem being a saga fan of all 6 movies.


In my case, all he had to have done was make the original movies available, and then I would have at least remained a tepid fan of his beloved "saga." Now his vision represents the very thing that is completely ruining Star Wars and I want nothing to do with it. To hell with his contradictions and his changes.

I just read an interview of his where he said the original Star Wars was only 25% of what he wanted. If that's true, why should he go back and fuck up an already good film with his additions? He should have just made all the movies brand new and not bothered to change the old. Then his Saga would truly tie together. Though he doesn't like Star Wars enough for that kind of commitment I'd guess. That would be too much work for our lethargic filmaker.

Otherwise, you make a good point about how Lucas is now stuck in a problem of his own making. If he turns off a lot of his older fans with his half-assed approach to absolutely everything, then that's the way it will be. Star Wars will become some cheap kiddy franchise that most people will grow out of by the time they're 20 and that's all it will ever be from then on. Then Star Wars will die unless preservationists who know the truth about the series have some say in the matter.


If only for its historical importance, I don't think that Star Wars will ever die. The OOT is more than good enough to speak for itself.

And Mr. Bungle, I think and hope that you are wrong.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: skye_solo
In interviews over the years when people bring up how great and mythic, and MEMORABLE the story and characters he would always say, "Oh the stories are not what will be remembered, but the TECHNOLOGY"


I'm convinced he wants film historians 100 years from now to look at his films and think he invented CGI in 1977.
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Originally posted by: rennervision
Originally posted by: skye_solo
In interviews over the years when people bring up how great and mythic, and MEMORABLE the story and characters he would always say, "Oh the stories are not what will be remembered, but the TECHNOLOGY"


I'm convinced he wants film historians 100 years from now to look at his films and think he invented CGI in 1977.


There actually was CGI in Star Wars... so technically... he did.
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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Computer generated imagery had been in use for years before Star Wars... so technically... he did not.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Tiptup

I just read an interview of his where he said the original Star Wars was only 25% of what he wanted.
This is most likely incorrect. Lucas likes to portray himself as a visionary by revision, so it is possibly true that the original Star Wars is only 25% of what he would have preferred it to be today. However, going by the interviews he gave back in the day, the original Star Wars came pretty close to what he actually wanted back then, even though it still wasn't quite 100% perhaps.
If that's true, why should he go back and fuck up an already good film with his additions?

He does this because he isn't the same person today as he was 30 years ago. Almost any person will change quite a lot over such a period of time for that matter, and frequently over much shorter timespans as well, all dependent on the events in our lives. Depending on what order of magnitude in terms of change we look at, you've changed slightly even as you read this very sentence. A minute change, and perhaps not a significant one on the level of day-to-day life, but a change nevertheless. Lucas is just an example of someone who ins't really willing to accept this, that this is what was and this is what is and just let it be.

He should have just made all the movies brand new and not bothered to change the old. Then his Saga would truly tie together. Though he doesn't like Star Wars enough for that kind of commitment I'd guess. That would be too much work for our lethargic filmaker.

I'm almost beginning to wonder whether Lucas will eventually turn into a manic recluse, as obsessed with editing the Star Wars movies into ever new versions of his "grand vision" as Howard Hughes was with collecting jars of his own urine. In the end though, it's all about the money of course.
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Just some drunken thoughts on the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD thing.

When I was a kid, we had a record player. It could play records at speeds 16, 33, 45 and 78's. We used it to play all our old and new 45's , and our LP's, like Pink Floyd and Hendrix and CCR and ..well, everything. In the back shed, we also had an old gramophone, that we would use to play the stack of gramophone records that lived in the shed. Then George Lucas came around, and broke them all, saying the quality sucked, and he didnt think that was what the musician intended. He was like that, even as a kid. But that's another story...

Worst thing about a record was, you played it once, and it never sounded as good again. It got dust on it, it crackled, and went pop. If it got a bad enough scratch on it,the needle would just skate across the record, and you couldn't hear the track, no matter how many coins you taped to the head of the record arm. You could lift the needle up and plonk it down on the next track if you wanted to skip a particularly sucky track, and got some sense of satisfacion if you got it right between tracks the first time. You couldn't listen to a whole record without stopping your listening and flipping the record over, untill some bright spark thought of having a linear needle on each side of the record, but they were pretty late on the scene and weren't common.

Then came cassettes. You could play them ten times, and the sound was pretty much the same as the first time you listened to them. Sure, sometimes they would jam, and you would eject the tape to find half a mile of concertinaed tape spewing from the tape, but all was pretty good. You had a few problems, like having to rewind the tapes, but later you got systems like Auto Program Search System, that would let you skip to the next track or go back to the start of the last, or players that would auto play the other side of the tape without manually eject and flipping the tape over. You could also record other media, like records, and that created a whole new bunch of problems. After years of these, and major inprovement in the systems these were played these on, the lack of quality started to become apparent.

Then came CD's. They offered the advantages of whole album side with no breaks, no deteriotion in quality after endless playing, more resilient than anything that had come before, and smaller and lighter than a brick. Many people threw out all the records and cassettes they ever owned, and their players, and never looked back. Systems got cheaper because everyone owned one. All was good in the world of audio that you could play at home.


Now I'm too drunk to fill in the rest...but ..short version...the video format wars happened, the lesser man won, and we all had video at home. People worked towrds getting the equiv of CD for video, and we got laserdisk. It was too expensive for your average punter, and besides quality, most releases offered very little extra over a vhs tape. Later, we got DVD. With DVD we got alternate audio tracks, extras and docos and trailers and all sorts of crap on disks, plus we got instant access and no lack of quality from a tape dragging across some video heads. We got reasonable, affordable priced disks. People that never considered owning libraries of videos soon had more DVD than they could watch in a week. People have DVD, and don't give a damn about the slight upgrade that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD give in picture quality, because it offers nothing else.

Untill players can play both formats, and the player price comes down, and there is some groundbreaking release that people just have to have, people will not adopt the new video format beyond a few geeks with sacks of money to burn. I won't, and I have 20 feet of DVD's on my shelf, and have previously left a record, cassette, and video collection behind as I upgraded to whatever had a real advantage over what I owned before.

However, if there was a deluxe SW collection, with theatrical versions and The Masters Vision versions of each of the films, and a bunch of disks loaded with extras and all only available on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, then I would seriously consider getting a player for that particular format. I'm sure GL knows his stuff could swing sales for one format or the other. Must be fun to play God.

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That what I've been saying, and that is why I think that it would be a wise business decision for GL to unclude a proper OOT on the 30th Box. But what do I know? Everyone pray.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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One way to settle the format wars would be for one the camps to convince GL to release the SW films in their format. People would go out and buy either a blu-ray or hd-dvd player, for the sole purpose of watching the films. I know I would- but only if the OOT was included.

I begged my Mom for my first VCR so that I could buy a tape of Star Wars and watch it, and I bought a LD player so I could watch the OOT on LD. I'm sure many others can say the same.

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Originally posted by: Ozkeeper

People worked towrds getting the equiv of CD for video, and we got laserdisk. It was too expensive for your average punter, and besides quality, most releases offered very little extra over a vhs tape. Later, we got DVD. With DVD we got alternate audio tracks, extras and docos and trailers and all sorts of crap on disks, plus we got instant access and no lack of quality from a tape dragging across some video heads. We got reasonable, affordable priced disks. People that never considered owning libraries of videos soon had more DVD than they could watch in a week. People have DVD, and don't give a damn about the slight upgrade that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD give in picture quality, because it offers nothing else.

Untill players can play both formats, and the player price comes down, and there is some groundbreaking release that people just have to have, people will not adopt the new video format beyond a few geeks with sacks of money to burn. I won't, and I have 20 feet of DVD's on my shelf, and have previously left a record, cassette, and video collection behind as I upgraded to whatever had a real advantage over what I owned before.

However, if there was a deluxe SW collection, with theatrical versions and The Masters Vision versions of each of the films, and a bunch of disks loaded with extras and all only available on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, then I would seriously consider getting a player for that particular format. I'm sure GL knows his stuff could swing sales for one format or the other. Must be fun to play God.



That is 100% how I feel, and that is how the majority of people with DVD are going to feel in the future towards HD-DVD. I am fine with DVD for the rest of my life, just as I am fine with CD's since 1989. Although the O-OT on HD-DVD is the only set of movies that I would think about getting an HD-DVD player for, but only for the O-OT movies, and not rebuying every DVD in my library.
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Double Post, sorry