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General Batman Talk — Page 3

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In the Burton/Schumaker films, the Catwoman story is really the only one that was filmed with taste and an appreciation of the craft. Not being a comic book guy, I don't know how far that strayed from the source, but I always liked how it was handled on film. The Penguin's treatment kinda ruined that film, but the entire Catwoman plot has made it my favorite of the films in that era.

However, the entire series became dead to me after Batman Begins. Nolan made me finally able to forget four films that were all too damn imperfect and replace them with something no less than perfect. I positively can't wait for TDK, though if Phillipe joins, I may return to my usual skepticism.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
In the Burton/Schumaker films, the Catwoman story is really the only one that was filmed with taste and an appreciation of the craft. Not being a comic book guy, I don't know how far that strayed from the source, but I always liked how it was handled on film. The Penguin's treatment kinda ruined that film, but the entire Catwoman plot has made it my favorite of the films in that era.

However, the entire series became dead to me after Batman Begins. Nolan made me finally able to forget four films that were all too damn imperfect and replace them with something no less than perfect. I positively can't wait for TDK, though if Phillipe joins, I may return to my usual skepticism.


Just out of curiosity, what problems did you have with The Penguin and the rest of the Burton movies aside from Catwoman?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Well, it's been well over 10 years (and that's more than half my life,) since I've seen Batman Returns, but from what I remember, Penguin in that film was a sewer-dwelling mutant freak, whereas in the comic books he is a more refined gentleman-esque criminal.

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I know his character was significantly changed from the comics, but ADM said that he wasn't a comics fan, so I was thinking that it must have been something from a filmmaking or basic storytelling point of view that he had a problem with rather than necessarily being true to the comic.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Well, in retroespect, the idea seems pretty silly to me.

Even by comic standards.

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I don't know. I always liked the movie's Penguin as a freakish pervert. Maybe that's just me.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Watch it again, it's brilliant. I genuinely feel pity every time I see the penguins carrying the deceased Oswald Cobblepot out into the water. And I also believe that Burton's re-imagining of the Penguin's origins works a lot better than in the comics. Who here has read a good Penguin story in the last two decades? I've read a lot of good graphic novels with the Penguin in them (Long Halloween, Dark Victory), but none where he successfully carries as much of the story as he did in Returns. I think it was the best DeVito performance I've seen, and certainly Michelle Pfeiffer was a brilliant Catwoman.

Returns is so rich with imagery and thematic material and I find it to be a very moving film, overall.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Yeah, Returns is my favorite Batman film (well, I honestly haven't seen Begins yet) even though it seemed like nothing in that film was shot on location.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: greencapt
Originally posted by: TheSessler
Remember this bit of eloquent dialogue from All Star Batman and Robin?


I am SOOOOOO glad I took Chaltab's advice and avloided this comic like the plague!

On the other hand, I'm really digging what DC is doing with the new creative teams on 'Batman' and 'Detective'. Good stuff!


"Are you dense? Are you retarded? I'm the goddamn Batman!"...

That's just sad. And horrible. Horribly sad. What were they thinking? It's not even guilty funny like "I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!".

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/greencapt/hansolovsindy.jpg
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Just out of curiosity, what problems did you have with The Penguin and the rest of the Burton movies aside from Catwoman?
The more time that passes from Burton's universe, the more it seems like the Adam West era. Schumaker's goes without saying as that was a deliberate attempt to return the films to their 60s camp, but Burtons films, which were supposed to be different, feel more and more like the 60s as time goes on. But that's just me. My specific issues:

* Keaton never completely sold me as being Batman. If Burton wanted to cast a Beetlejuice alumnus, he should've cast Alec Baldwin.
* Vicky Vale, who won The Pulitzer with photos of charred bodies on the front lines war, reduced herself to screaming at every turn throughout the second half of "Batman." Not only was it annoying, it was so wrong for her character.
* The fact that "Batman" should have been called "The Joker" instead due to overdeveloping the villain and underdeveloping the hero.
* The pointless desecration of a church for the finale of "Batman" was an anti-Christian vibe I picked up on from the first viewing. If you're going to desecrate a church in the name of art, at least make it a relevant plot point. I can deal with Hudson Hawk desecrating the Vatican just fine -- it is germane to the plot.
* The ham-fisted loss of Vicky Vale in the second film, and of Catwoman in the third film. These set up important character development arcs that were just flushed away for the sake of getting a fresh face.
* Missile-toting Assassin Penguins!
* The droning circus freak chick's countdown to Armageddon.
* Society muckety-mucks leaving their kids unattended at home on Christmas Eve. Apparently Gotham has no babysitters.

There is still a lot that was good in both films, but these were major flaws that kept me from ever truly loving and embracing them. And I LOVE Tim Burton flicks.

Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
(well, I honestly haven't seen Begins yet)

Make this your first order of business. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go straight to the video store and rent this film.

I actually got rid of all my Burton/Schumaker DVDs after seeing this film.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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I like Batman Begins but I really don't see why everyone thinks it is so great.

War does not make one great.

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I just don't understand why I haven't made myself watch it yet. I mean... I own it. And Batman's my favorite superhero. I just don't get it. I'm crazy.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
I like Batman Begins but I really don't see why everyone thinks it is so great.


I agree. It wasn't bad, but I don't see why everyone thinks it was the greatest ever.
Personally, I still think Batman and Batman Returns were the best.
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Originally posted by: Number20
Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
I like Batman Begins but I really don't see why everyone thinks it is so great.


I agree. It wasn't bad, but I don't see why everyone thinks it was the greatest ever.
Personally, I still think Batman and Batman Returns were the best.


True that. I do think that Begins deserves to stand alongside them, though. I think it's a great Batman film with a different approach, perhaps a more literal approach, than the Burton films.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I just don't understand why I haven't made myself watch it yet. I mean... I own it. And Batman's my favorite superhero. I just don't get it. I'm crazy.


Perhaps you're afraid you won't like it?

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Just out of curiosity, what problems did you have with The Penguin and the rest of the Burton movies aside from Catwoman?
The more time that passes from Burton's universe, the more it seems like the Adam West era. Schumaker's goes without saying as that was a deliberate attempt to return the films to their 60s camp, but Burtons films, which were supposed to be different, feel more and more like the 60s as time goes on. But that's just me. My specific issues:

* Keaton never completely sold me as being Batman. If Burton wanted to cast a Beetlejuice alumnus, he should've cast Alec Baldwin.
* Vicky Vale, who won The Pulitzer with photos of charred bodies on the front lines war, reduced herself to screaming at every turn throughout the second half of "Batman." Not only was it annoying, it was so wrong for her character.
* The fact that "Batman" should have been called "The Joker" instead due to overdeveloping the villain and underdeveloping the hero.
* The pointless desecration of a church for the finale of "Batman" was an anti-Christian vibe I picked up on from the first viewing. If you're going to desecrate a church in the name of art, at least make it a relevant plot point. I can deal with Hudson Hawk desecrating the Vatican just fine -- it is germane to the plot.
* The ham-fisted loss of Vicky Vale in the second film, and of Catwoman in the third film. These set up important character development arcs that were just flushed away for the sake of getting a fresh face.
* Missile-toting Assassin Penguins!
* The droning circus freak chick's countdown to Armageddon.
* Society muckety-mucks leaving their kids unattended at home on Christmas Eve. Apparently Gotham has no babysitters.

There is still a lot that was good in both films, but these were major flaws that kept me from ever truly loving and embracing them. And I LOVE Tim Burton flicks.

Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
(well, I honestly haven't seen Begins yet)

Make this your first order of business. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go straight to the video store and rent this film.

I actually got rid of all my Burton/Schumaker DVDs after seeing this film.


I disagree. For me, Keaton is and always will be THE Batman. I think he was the perfect choice for both Wayne and the Dark Knight. As great as Nicholson's performance was, I never understood why so many people even critics say that he stole the show. If a particular performance is great, does it have to diminish everything else? It was all good! For me, the atmosphere stole the show, and the aura of the Batman Burton generated overshadowed both Keaton and Nicholson. I think it did well to show that Batman is more than a man; more than Bruce Wayne.

I'm a Christian, and I have never had a problem with the fight in the cathedral (and by no means am I trying to impose my own convictions upon you, ADM): for a few reasons, both theological and theatrical. For one, there really is no such thing as desecrating a church - the church building is not the dwelling place of God - a church is a gathering of Christians in fellowship; the Church is Christianity at large; the people; and God's dwelling place is within his people. Not that I'm advocating burning down churches or the like - I'm just saying that it's just another building.

Now for the theatrical reason: it's an iconic fight between good and evil; the Joker is a demonic force and the Batman angelic. The Batman is like a gargoyle in that cathedral both in appearance and metaphysically; a sentinel watching over it, and he has deemed that a demon has entered the building and must be cast out. I think the cathedral setting served to give the fight a more spiritual dimension rather than an anti-Christian vibe, but again, I can't speak for others' reception of the material.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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You both make good points.

Actually, what I like about Batman Begins (it's been years since I've seen either Burton film, not since I was a kid, so I can't really speak to my SPECIFIC dislikes of those, such as penguins with bazookas and all..) is that it finally is able to explain sussinctly why a modern man would dress up like a giant bat and take to the underworld, fighting crime on the terms of the criminals. The comics explanations work within the logic of comic book motivations, but in Burton's films, he just sort of WAS Batman. It touched on his parents murders' at the hands of Jack Napier, but it turned it into a "You created me," ... "Well, you created ME first," angle, which, though interesting, isn't really true to the character.

That said, I definitely like the look of the Burton films, and Jack Nilchoson made a good Joker. I just think Burton was a bit wrong-headed in his implementation of the 'darker' themes.

And I guess the fact Ra's al Ghul is my favorite Batvillain doesn't hurt.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
You both make good points.

Actually, what I like about Batman Begins (it's been years since I've seen either Burton film, not since I was a kid, so I can't really speak to my SPECIFIC dislikes of those, such as penguins with bazookas and all..) is that it finally is able to explain sussinctly why a modern man would dress up like a giant bat and take to the underworld, fighting crime on the terms of the criminals. The comics explanations work within the logic of comic book motivations, but in Burton's films, he just sort of WAS Batman. It touched on his parents murders' at the hands of Jack Napier, but it turned it into a "You created me," ... "Well, you created ME first," angle, which, though interesting, isn't really true to the character.

That said, I definitely like the look of the Burton films, and Jack Nilchoson made a good Joker. I just think Burton was a bit wrong-headed in his implementation of the 'darker' themes.

And I guess the fact Ra's al Ghul is my favorite Batvillain doesn't hurt.


But by the same token, I think that Begins diminished both Ra's Al Ghul and Henri Ducard by making them one character...and I doubt there will be any Lazarus Pits for this Ra's...great to see Neeson in a Batman film, though, and it was a cool twist.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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True. But isn't Ra's supposed to be Arabic anyway? Maybe even 'Ducard' was't the real Demon's Head.

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At best, Ra's is of ambiguous ethnicity, but generally accepted to be Asian/Arabic from my understanding. I've only read Son of the Demon and Tales of the Demon so far (and waiting on Birth of the Demon) and neither of them provide conclusive answers on the subject (though I suspect, as luck would have it, that Birth provides them all).
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Originally posted by: theredbaron
At best, Ra's is of ambiguous ethnicity, but generally accepted to be Asian/Arabic from my understanding. I've only read Son of the Demon and Tales of the Demon so far (and waiting on Birth of the Demon) and neither of them provide conclusive answers on the subject (though I suspect, as luck would have it, that Birth provides them all).


Probably done on purpose.

I actually like Val Kilmer's portrayal of Batman/Bruce Wayne. Does that make me a bad person?
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/greencapt/hansolovsindy.jpg
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Wouldn't know. The only things I remember from Batman Returns are Catwoman's costume and the Penguin's death scene.

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I understood Ra's Al Ghul to be his title, not his name. I also understood him to be of British origin. But again, my comic experience is very limited.

On the subect of church desecration, it's a question of intent. After all, it was just a set, not a real church anyway. But the point is, they chose to film a pointless scene of Batman desecrating a sanctuary before climbing the bell tower for the actual fight. That's what I had the problem with then and now. It was the intent behind it that I think was less than noble, both to the story and to Christians. I'm no Bible-thumper by a LONG shot, but this always got under my skin.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
After all, it was just a set, not a real church anyway.


"...its *only* a model!" heh heh.

Actually as we are in confessional mode of sorts let me chime in. NONE of the Burton/Schumacher moved me in any way, shape or form. Now I know that many people have profoundly moving experiences with the first two films and define their Batman experiences by them and I can understand and appreciate that. But for my tastes... meh. Now in '89 I was in about the height of my comic collecting and had been a Batman fan for some time. I even drove a batmobile- a blue '73 Buick Elektra with huge yellow bat-symbols painted on the driver's and passenger's doors. I like many people was stoked about the first film. What I wasn't excited about was the casting. Like many people I was wary about Michael Keaton and I was underimpressed by the idea of Jack Nicholson. After seeing the film I thought that Keaton made a decent Bruce Wayne but I didn't like his Batman. And I frankly hated Nicholson as the Joker.

Yes I know... blasphemy! But there were a couple things going on in my way of thinking:

1) By this time in his career Jack was not *acting*... Jack was being Jack. Nic Cage has the same problem right now. There's no technique involved... they just do their own thing which is what everyone expects from them. I never saw 'The Joker'... I saw Jack Nicholson being himself but with a horrible prosthetic mouth extension
2) The Joker of the comics was a skinny psycho. Jack was a tubby middle actor that everyone recognized. They should have gone with an unknown.

Actually until I sat down to re-edit 'B&R' I had NEVER watched any of the four Batman films more than ONCE completely through. I saw each on opening night in the theater and that was it. Yeah I've seen bits and pieces on the TV showings, but I never had any desire to see them all the way through again. Like I said- though I was a comic geek and all they just didn't do anything for me.

I very much enjoyed 'Batman Begins' though. I won't be like many people and say it was the second coming or anything but it was the first Batman film I've had the desire to re-watch and the first I've bought on DVD.

I'll ramble on more later.

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
I understood Ra's Al Ghul to be his title, not his name. I also understood him to be of British origin. But again, my comic experience is very limited.

On the subect of church desecration, it's a question of intent. After all, it was just a set, not a real church anyway. But the point is, they chose to film a pointless scene of Batman desecrating a sanctuary before climbing the bell tower for the actual fight. That's what I had the problem with then and now. It was the intent behind it that I think was less than noble, both to the story and to Christians. I'm no Bible-thumper by a LONG shot, but this always got under my skin.


Hm.. what action by Batman exactly are you talking about?

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