Originally posted by: CO
Hating Lucas for making an average PT, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for making an average ROTJ, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for putting out crap transfers for the O-OT, I will agree on that.
You made a lot of good points in your post, CO, and while we should never hate Lucas for making mistakes, I do want to clarify that Lucas didn’t merely give us an “average” prequel trilogy. It was bad enough to make any sane person cringe. To even make that fact worse, it was filled with contradictions and other concepts that turned the meaning of the original trilogy on its head. I now believe those problems were the mistakes of a messy mind, but very, very big mistakes.
In terms of the special editions I think George has some questions to answer, however. The 1997 special editions made the originals average (which was a travesty on its own), and the 2004 special editions went further and actually ruined the originals. While still not worthy of hatred, George should be heavily criticized as a person over these moves. Even worse is the way he prevents the original form of the movies from ever being seen and that’s an unforgivable course of action so long as he decides to stick to it.
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Well, I for one, usually think of Luke and Han getting their medals, and that's my closure. I like SW'77 soooo much more than any of the others that I often consider it a standalone film. The fact that Lucas made up the main story of the saga (Vader being Luke's father) after the first film, and conflicting with dialogue (and thus the audience's truth) as presented in the first film, I have a pretty easy time thinking of the sequels as non-canon offshoots ... despite their pedigree.
I happen to think the emotional thrust of Star Wars is messed with if Princess Leia is Luke Skywalker's sister. She's not. Not in that film. And I like avenging his father as Luke's motivation for hating Darth Vader. That's the plot I fell in love with, as did millions around the world. In SW'77, Leia is the hero's legitimate love interest, and the hero's father was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader, a pupil of the hero's mentor.
Hating Lucas for making an average PT, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for making an average ROTJ, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for putting out crap transfers for the O-OT, I will agree on that.
You made a lot of good points in your post, CO, and while we should never hate Lucas for making mistakes, I do want to clarify that Lucas didn’t merely give us an “average” prequel trilogy. It was bad enough to make any sane person cringe. To even make that fact worse, it was filled with contradictions and other concepts that turned the meaning of the original trilogy on its head. I now believe those problems were the mistakes of a messy mind, but very, very big mistakes.
In terms of the special editions I think George has some questions to answer, however. The 1997 special editions made the originals average (which was a travesty on its own), and the 2004 special editions went further and actually ruined the originals. While still not worthy of hatred, George should be heavily criticized as a person over these moves. Even worse is the way he prevents the original form of the movies from ever being seen and that’s an unforgivable course of action so long as he decides to stick to it.
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Well, I for one, usually think of Luke and Han getting their medals, and that's my closure. I like SW'77 soooo much more than any of the others that I often consider it a standalone film. The fact that Lucas made up the main story of the saga (Vader being Luke's father) after the first film, and conflicting with dialogue (and thus the audience's truth) as presented in the first film, I have a pretty easy time thinking of the sequels as non-canon offshoots ... despite their pedigree.
I happen to think the emotional thrust of Star Wars is messed with if Princess Leia is Luke Skywalker's sister. She's not. Not in that film. And I like avenging his father as Luke's motivation for hating Darth Vader. That's the plot I fell in love with, as did millions around the world. In SW'77, Leia is the hero's legitimate love interest, and the hero's father was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader, a pupil of the hero's mentor.
I totally understand your point of the contradicting dialogue between Empire and the first film. I never understood that as a child at all. Also, I totally agree that the original Star Wars is a better film (as a standalone accomplishment) and I can at least respect your opinion that making Vader into Luke’s father was a bad decision (though I do disagree).
The original Star Wars (which I often feel dirty calling “Episode 4” or “ANH”) is and always was my favorite movie of all time, but I do believe, as standalone films, that Empire managed to improve upon the Star Wars narrative to a notable degree. Despite not being as meaningful a film on it’s own as Star Wars was and continues to be, I believe that Empire is still a better film considering everything overall (the “saga” perspective).
In terms of the clear alterations to the story, every story changes at some point. A story’s nature changing between different installments isn’t a crime. The important part is to decide if we like what we see. We can judge the quality of a story at the time it changes and whether we still like it or not. In that sense, I believe the invention of Vader being Luke’s father in Empire was a brilliant decision and addition to the Star Wars story. Sure, it didn’t work with the previously delivered dialogue in the original film, but I always logically knew there could be many explanations for what Ben said that would keep his statements truthful. Unfortunately, Jedi let us down in regard to such an explanation.
Return of the Jedi added the idea that Leia had been Luke’s sister the whole time (which even as a kid made me think WTF?), but I could still take that concept and not let it ruin the story for me. Jedi wasn’t nearly as good as the two preceding films either, but it still had the great theme of self-sacrifice for our heroes and it displayed the great value of redemption which made the film great to me. When Luke turned himself in to face the Emperor and when the Rebels decided to stick around and possibly face certain doom I’m always on the edge of my seat. When Luke is tempted by the dark side in Jedi it also gives me goose bumps. Lastly, Luke reaching out to Vader by taking a stand is perhaps the best climax Star Wars could have had. So, with all of that in mind, I still consider Return of the Jedi to be a great film, just not on the same level as the two that came before.
Lastly, about Darth Vader, I highly dislike the idea of him being the central focus of the “saga.” It’s insulting to the very purpose of the original story of Star Wars. Even in Empire and Jedi, with his increased focus, he was never the main character and served more as a means to apply pressure to the heroes. That’s why I don’t believe the prequel trilogy should have focused much on Vader if at all. But I didn’t make those decision . . . a certain someone else did . . . .