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The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released) — Page 49

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>> If true, this would mean that Dick might have been making so little progress on the film, he was digging into the pencil tests from almost two decades ago in order to boost the weekly footage count.

Or he was having the scene redrawn, as many scenes were (although since the scene was unused this is less likely). Or Maccurdy misinterpeted the question as referring to another, similar shot she'd seen.



Well, I'm back from Comic Con. Had a great time as always. Lost a lot of money. Not sure how I'm going to make rent this week, but boy was it worth it. I'll probably be posting a long ramble at FFrevolution.com.

I actually wore my black Cafepress.com/cobbler Tack tshirt on friday. One person recognized me, and got a free copy of Thief Mark II for his troubles. On saturday, Josh Way recognized me WITHOUT the t-shirt. I was standing in line on my knees (I was tired), and he recognized me ... and got a Thief Mark II for his troubles. =)

I spoke to animation scholar Jerry Beck and gave him a bunch of copies, because I know they'll be going to good homes. Very grateful to Amid and Jerry for putting that interview up at Cartoon Brew. Jerry's "Worst Cartoons Ever" panel is hilarious.

While talking to Jerry I got to meet Bill Plympton .... he'd also heard of my project .... very cool. He was very nice and I also met someone who was with him - I didn't quite catch her name but I believe it was Margaret and that she's an animator. Sorry for the fuzzy facts here.

At the Comic Con film festival I met Raul Garcia (who worked on Roger Rabbit) and saw his terrific short film The Telltale Heart .... animated in stark blacks and whites and narrated by Bela Lugosi .... predating Sin City and the French film Renaissance, but now competing with them.


And .... wonderfully ...


I got to meet and briefly talk to Eric Goldberg .... an honor, I'm a huge fan ... he might be the best animator working today, certainly among the top few.

He'd seen my Thief project, which is nice, and was glad that I was restoring this material. I plan to send him a lot of DVDs, though I'm sure he's collected a lot of this material himself already.

I met a bunch of other people, so many I wound up running out of copies of The Thief to give out ... at that particular moment I was talking to Hans Perk from AFilm animation in Denmark (http://www.afilm.com), Larry Loc from ASIFA, and a fellow who I think was Eric Goldberg's son ...? I think his last name was "Goldberg." My memory fails me for the moment.

He'd seen the cut, and enjoyed it, but felt strongly that I should have done Dick's cut more closely, and not included any Calvert animation. As he said: "The [Williams] storyboards are better than the [Calvert] animation."

Which is true.

He felt I should redo the cut, replacing the Calvert animation with the Williams storyboards, feeling that if Dick saw the film this way "it would kill him."

Eric agreed that the storyboards should have been/should be reinstated.


This had also been Holger Leihe's opinion, and, I'm sure, the opinion of other animators who've seen this cut.


My response was an ashamed "I know, I know ..." which became an "I know, I know, but ..."


I didn't follow Dick's cut of the film exactly for Recobbled. I could have - I could have edited this film a myriad of different ways. But due to the insane complexity of this edit, I decided to pick just one way of editing the film, and stick to it, otherwise I would be working on it for a long, long time.

My decision was to include Calvert animation, new music, scenes that Dick had cut out, and other material that deviated from the workprint.

Why? Well, as a purist I want to see Dick's version of The Thief and the Cobbler. As an editor, I know Dick's version was never completed, and I want to entertain the audience as much as possible. And sadly, the quality of the workprint (the pencil tests in particular) still isn't all that good.

I know that an audience would rather watch finished animation than pencil tests and storyboards, and I made the decision to use Calvert footage to help tell the story and make the film feel more complete. Sadly, it's not exactly Dick's cut anymore, but I feel it's easier for a viewer to turn their brain off and watch it .... not have to think as much. I'm not saying it's BETTER this way, because it isn't, it's simply easier to watch for the general public.


But yeah, it's a tradeoff, and for Dick's sake, I would ideally want to present him with a version that matched his cut perfectly. I do worry that my cut would "kill him."

The only reason I haven't done an alternate cut is that it would be a huge amount of work. And also because I feel I made the right decision for this version of the film.

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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
The only reason I haven't done an alternate cut is that it would be a huge amount of work. And also because I feel I made the right decision for this version of the film.


I'm seeing a DVD twin pack floating dreamily before my eyes... Recobbled on one disc, Dick's version on the other Don't worry, I know it's just a dream. That would be a LOT of work for you!

You had a tough choice, and for what it's worth, I feel that you have made a good decision to include some Calvert footage in order to hold people's interest - much as I would have loved to see the storyboarded version too. At the end of the day, we are talking about an awareness-raising exercise, and those rely on word of mouth, which in turn relies on watchability (for the masses). A "purist cut" would spread like a forest fire among the "true believers", but only shoot a few tentative branches outside that central core of people. When I show my copy to anyone, I am careful to explain beforehand that it's been stitched together from various sources, some of them low quality. I even find myself mimicking your commentary, pointing out the good and bad scenes and trying to enlighten as they unfold. Then again, if they then went and showed the movie to others, would they do the same? Probably not. Hmmm... in spite of my praise for your work, I do find myself also hoping now that Dick doesn't get to see it

Glad you had a good time at Comic Con and met some cool people.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovieBut yeah, it's a tradeoff, and for Dick's sake, I would ideally want to present him with a version that matched his cut perfectly. I do worry that my cut would "kill him."


If anything, I'd say remove the Arabian Knight and Allied Films trailers from the copy you give Dick, and perhaps replace them with the Warner's trailer.

I know you said that the trailers from the Calvert versions were included so the viewer could see a contrast between the original film and what it eventually became. But I'm sure Dick wouldn't care to see those.

In fact, moving the Arabian Knight and Allied Films trailer to the supplemental discs wouldn't be a bad idea. It would ensure that viewers of the Recobbled Cut only see things pertaining to the Williams-supervised cut of the film (Photo Gallery, Warner's trailer, commentary tracks, etc.).

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Originally posted by: DaveHolmes
It would ensure that viewers of the Recobbled Cut only see things pertaining to the Williams-supervised cut of the film (Photo Gallery, Warner's trailer, commentary tracks, etc.).


This is a moot point, considering that the film itself contains non-Williams elements.

I do think that Garrett made the right choices in creating this edit, when it comes to 95% of the people out there. It's easy to say, "Well hell, the storyboards are better than the crappy finished animation that was made after Williams got the boot." But when you see that only available version of the storyboards looks like hell, and is hard to make out, and the argument falls apart. You have to be able to make sense of what's going on, and it should be accessible. Most people aren't scholars, and they want to be entertained. For the purists, well...they can take a copy of the workprint and slap it on a disc, and be happy with it. That'll work for the other 5%.

But yeah, as far as Williams himself goes, it's necessary to tread much more carefully.

Garrett, perhaps you could try getting the word out to Williams' son (and some of the animators out there that have seen/heard of the edit) that there is some interest in a purist edit that Williams himself would enjoy, but that the quality of the materials available isn't good enough for such an edit...maybe some kind soul would be willing to supply material of sufficient quality to make such an edit possible.

Until then, for the scholars, there is the workprint. For the rest of the people, the public, who are the ones that will actually keep the memory of this film alive, and make it matter, there is the recobbled version.
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The Arabian Knight trailer, Allied Trailer, commentary and "about the film" are left off of the version I prepared for certain animators (and for Dick) ... no need for 'em.

We can always hope that a better workprint turns up. The one we have is pretty good for storyboards, but not so much for pencil tests and things.

I intend to try to send my cut to Dick anyway ... see what he thinks. If I get an opinion from the master himself, maybe I can then make a version more suited to his specifications. =)


At the moment, I'm still working quite hard on a brand-new Richard Williams Collection DVD .... This will contain NTSC 24p versions of many, many Williams studio commercials, all of which have been converted from PAL, cleaned up, color corrected and generally prettified for DVD ... as well as the Warners trailer and whatever else fits on the disc.
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You know, I'm willing to do a no-frills "enhanced workprint" that simply inserts all possible Williams/RWS staff animation from the various sources into the workprint edit. Not smooth in terms of viewing like the recobbled, but it would at least be out there.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
I intend to try to send my cut to Dick anyway ... see what he thinks. If I get an opinion from the master himself, maybe I can then make a version more suited to his specifications. =)


So if he gave you a list of suggestions, would you do another version?

I know all the original cels were destroyed, but I wonder if he has some of hte original storyboards.



Working on: Superman: Son of Jorel

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That's a generous offer Patrick ... but if anyone's going to do a full, alternate edit of this film at this point, somehow I think it should be me or an official release or nothing. At this point, I'm saying nothing. =\

Taolar - My best sources believe that both Disney and Richard saved a good deal of material from this film. No one knows for sure, though.


Good news - I've just completed the latest disc in the Richard Williams Collection.

Entitled "Animated Ads," it's jam-packed with good things.

I've actually authored it to replace the old "Animating Art" disc, because there was some overlap of content (you'll see why I did this when you see the tracklisting). If you have the old Animating Art disc, keep it - the old one has Oscar Grillo's Seaside Woman and another print of I Drew Roger Rabbit on it; the new one will not.


Here's the contents.


Richard Williams Studio Animated Commercials - 29 min. You've seen this reel on Youtube - now, a half hour of animated ads have been cleaned up, color corrected, and converted to NTSC 24p. The entire presentation is progressive scan without interlacing and looks great. This also includes the Pink Panther ads courtesy of Roy and Holger Leihe, and the Roger Rabbit Diet Coke commercial courtesy of Dave West.

More Animated Commercials by Richard and Others - 19.5 min. Bringing our total commercial count to 50 minutes or so, this is the reel courtesy of Chris Sobieniak which you may have seen on the older Animating Art disc, or on GBS.TV. I have removed some ads which appeared in the other reel.

Animating Art - 38 minutes - Documentary about Art Babbit's work and career, as he works at Richard Williams studio educating the animators there. Courtesy of Eddie Bowers, the same (mediocre quality) print seen on the old Animating Art disc.

Nasruddin "Bread Scene" clip from One Pair of Eyes: Dreamwalkers - 5 minutes. Courtesy of Tahir Shah. You'll see it on new versions of The Thief Recobbled, but you can get it here too .... a remarkable rare clip from the film that became The Thief, circa 1966-1968. Kenneth Williams plays characters including the character that became Zigzag.

Roger Rabbit Trailer - 3 minutes in DVD quality. Courtesy of Patrick McCart.

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum end titles - 2.5 minutes in DVD quality.

Warner Bros. Thief and the Cobbler Licensing Trailer - 6.5 minutes, courtesy of Roy Naisbitt. Now converted to widescreen progressive scan NTSC 24p. Contains several shots not in the final film.

The Thief and the Cobbler Calvert Cut: Allied Filmmakers Trailer - 2 minutes. Courtesy of J.P. Cummings, this rare trailer reflects the "Princess" version of the film.

Arabian Knight Trailer - 2 minutes. Courtesy of baby hum, this DVD quality trailer reflects the Arabian Knight version of the film.
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Came across this post by Dean Roberts, who worked on "Thief and The Cobbler" -

http://theblogofkells.blogspot.com/2006/04/thief-that-never-gave-up.html

i animated the scene with zigzag holding the cobbler's hand . its nice to know the next gen of animators still rate dick williams and that film . it nearly killed me !!!!there never was a real finished DW version of the film - the last stage at which dick was involved was a two thirds animated film and full colour storyboards all drawn in marker pens by dick himself . i should know cos i was high for weeks !!!


So I'd guess that's the extent of what was completed under Williams' supervision - 2/3 of the film animated with the rest done in color storyboards by Williams.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
Well put.

I'm glad to hear you've got to meet Jerry, Bill and the rest too! Having to read about what Goldberg thought should've been done, it is rather touchy how to work with a film such as this. What you did and the reasons for it seemed valid to me over giving the general public something of a "user-friendly" sort of edit they wouldn't have to think over those cuts and such. A real pro would want to do that, and why the workprint as it was offered something of an interest to view those storyboards, pencil tests and other scenes that had been either saved or clipped in the final cut.

Yours truly,
Chris Sobieniak

For more mindless entertainment....
My LiveJournal Page
The Online Video Depository - For all your daily video needs!
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Originally posted by: tweaker
Originally posted by: DaveHolmes
It would ensure that viewers of the Recobbled Cut only see things pertaining to the Williams-supervised cut of the film (Photo Gallery, Warner's trailer, commentary tracks, etc.).

This is a moot point, considering that the film itself contains non-Williams elements.

I do think that Garrett made the right choices in creating this edit, when it comes to 95% of the people out there. It's easy to say, "Well hell, the storyboards are better than the crappy finished animation that was made after Williams got the boot." But when you see that only available version of the storyboards looks like hell, and is hard to make out, and the argument falls apart. You have to be able to make sense of what's going on, and it should be accessible. Most people aren't scholars, and they want to be entertained. For the purists, well...they can take a copy of the workprint and slap it on a disc, and be happy with it. That'll work for the other 5%.

It's the sort of think that separates the amatures from the pros in many cases.

But yeah, as far as Williams himself goes, it's necessary to tread much more carefully.

Garrett, perhaps you could try getting the word out to Williams' son (and some of the animators out there that have seen/heard of the edit) that there is some interest in a purist edit that Williams himself would enjoy, but that the quality of the materials available isn't good enough for such an edit...maybe some kind soul would be willing to supply material of sufficient quality to make such an edit possible.

Until then, for the scholars, there is the workprint. For the rest of the people, the public, who are the ones that will actually keep the memory of this film alive, and make it matter, there is the recobbled version.

'nuff said!
Yours truly,
Chris Sobieniak

For more mindless entertainment....
My LiveJournal Page
The Online Video Depository - For all your daily video needs!
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
The Arabian Knight trailer, Allied Trailer, commentary and "about the film" are left off of the version I prepared for certain animators (and for Dick) ... no need for 'em.

We can always hope that a better workprint turns up. The one we have is pretty good for storyboards, but not so much for pencil tests and things.

I intend to try to send my cut to Dick anyway ... see what he thinks. If I get an opinion from the master himself, maybe I can then make a version more suited to his specifications. =)
Something about this kinda reminds me of the kind of anxieties I used to get when I do something, and had to see if it gets an approval or praise by the teacher I had back in school. Too often I would get the lecture to improve more or to refined what it is I'm trying to convey in my art, and often I feel a bit let down, not too ashamed, but it's one of those things I grew out of over time.

At the moment, I'm still working quite hard on a brand-new Richard Williams Collection DVD .... This will contain NTSC 24p versions of many, many Williams studio commercials, all of which have been converted from PAL, cleaned up, color corrected and generally prettified for DVD ... as well as the Warners trailer and whatever else fits on the disc.

That's cool. Love to see how they'll turn out to be in the end!
Yours truly,
Chris Sobieniak

For more mindless entertainment....
My LiveJournal Page
The Online Video Depository - For all your daily video needs!
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
That's a generous offer Patrick ... but if anyone's going to do a full, alternate edit of this film at this point, somehow I think it should be me or an official release or nothing. At this point, I'm saying nothing. =\

Taolar - My best sources believe that both Disney and Richard saved a good deal of material from this film. No one knows for sure, though.


Good news - I've just completed the latest disc in the Richard Williams Collection.

Entitled "Animated Ads," it's jam-packed with good things.

I've actually authored it to replace the old "Animating Art" disc, because there was some overlap of content (you'll see why I did this when you see the tracklisting). If you have the old Animating Art disc, keep it - the old one has Oscar Grillo's Seaside Woman and another print of I Drew Roger Rabbit on it; the new one will not.
You know I'll keep mine!


Here's the contents.


Richard Williams Studio Animated Commercials - 29 min. You've seen this reel on Youtube - now, a half hour of animated ads have been cleaned up, color corrected, and converted to NTSC 24p. The entire presentation is progressive scan without interlacing and looks great. This also includes the Pink Panther ads courtesy of Roy and Holger Leihe, and the Roger Rabbit Diet Coke commercial courtesy of Dave West.
Neat to get it all in one place!

More Animated Commercials by Richard and Others - 19.5 min. Bringing our total commercial count to 50 minutes or so, this is the reel courtesy of Chris Sobieniak which you may have seen on the older Animating Art disc, or on GBS.TV. I have removed some ads which appeared in the other reel.

Neat to see my contribution getting added as well! Wasn't sure if it was going to be just combined with the other commercials or separated. Love to see what the ones from the other sources would look like in NTSC 24p soon!

Animating Art - 38 minutes - Documentary about Art Babbit's work and career, as he works at Richard Williams studio educating the animators there. Courtesy of Eddie Bowers, the same (mediocre quality) print seen on the old Animating Art disc.

Nasruddin "Bread Scene" clip from One Pair of Eyes: Dreamwalkers - 5 minutes. Courtesy of Tahir Shah. You'll see it on new versions of The Thief Recobbled, but you can get it here too .... a remarkable rare clip from the film that became The Thief, circa 1966-1968. Kenneth Williams plays characters including the character that became Zigzag.

Roger Rabbit Trailer - 3 minutes in DVD quality. Courtesy of Patrick McCart.

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum end titles - 2.5 minutes in DVD quality.

Warner Bros. Thief and the Cobbler Licensing Trailer - 6.5 minutes, courtesy of Roy Naisbitt. Now converted to widescreen progressive scan NTSC 24p. Contains several shots not in the final film.

The Thief and the Cobbler Calvert Cut: Allied Filmmakers Trailer - 2 minutes. Courtesy of J.P. Cummings, this rare trailer reflects the "Princess" version of the film.

Arabian Knight Trailer - 2 minutes. Courtesy of baby hum, this DVD quality trailer reflects the Arabian Knight version of the film.

Love to see the results soon!
Yours truly,
Chris Sobieniak

For more mindless entertainment....
My LiveJournal Page
The Online Video Depository - For all your daily video needs!
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John Loter chimes in with the latest on Don Hahn's planned Thief restoration ... news from Comic Con ....

Don Hahn and daughter stopped by our
booth- met them briefly last year, but this time I talked to him a bit
more and said "Do you mind if I ask you about a rumor- The Thief and
The Cobbler restoration?"

I can't remember exactly what he said but it sounded like a "someday"
kind of project. He did tell me [and was clearly excited about it] that
they got ALL the artwork from Miramax and it is sitting "along with
Snow White and Pinnocchio" [in Disney's Animation Research Library,
where all art is stored]. "Beautiful Errol LeCain backgrounds", etc.

SO.... I asked him if he was aware of you and your efforts on a fan
restoration and he was NOT. I said you did an amazing job and that he
needs to see it. He joked that maybe he should hire you and I said YES!
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Here's something interesting ... the Princess and the Cobbler poster with the Thief title on it.

http://www.dacre.org/flash/www/gb100780.jpg

This would seem to correspond with the unreleased "Allied Filmmakers" version of the film, which was the Princess cut but with the correct title. Miramax seemingly ALMOST released this, then didn't.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
John Loter chimes in with the latest on Don Hahn's planned Thief restoration ... news from Comic Con ....

Don Hahn and daughter stopped by our
booth- met them briefly last year, but this time I talked to him a bit
more and said "Do you mind if I ask you about a rumor- The Thief and
The Cobbler restoration?"

I can't remember exactly what he said but it sounded like a "someday"
kind of project. He did tell me [and was clearly excited about it] that
they got ALL the artwork from Miramax and it is sitting "along with
Snow White and Pinnocchio" [in Disney's Animation Research Library,
where all art is stored]. "Beautiful Errol LeCain backgrounds", etc.

SO.... I asked him if he was aware of you and your efforts on a fan
restoration and he was NOT. I said you did an amazing job and that he
needs to see it. He joked that maybe he should hire you and I said YES!


My tail is wagging. A LOT! This is fantastic information. I really, really hope it's true that all the artwork was kept. Oh please, oh please, oh please!! And it's great that Don Hahn is now aware of your project. This could of course come to nothing, but I truly hope not. I hope that all your efforts have finally set a spark to the tinder. All we need now is for Dick to get behind it - and of course, that's the make-or-break element.

I shall be following this story for as long as it takes now. It's become one of my life obsessions. I was thinking of getting a bumper sticker made... Can you get those on CafePress, I wonder? Hmm...

Edit: Ah. Just realised that all the artwork from Miramax was kept. I guess that means that the Koreans may still have lost large parts of it?
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It's not clear exactly what artwork Miramax bought, but clearly it was a significant amount of material. Roughly all of the korean stuff was junked, but hey.

According to rumor from informed sources, Dick himself also kept some 35mm film and other secret things.

I do not feel that it is necessary for people to have saved the artwork in order to restore this film. It would be helpful if ever someone tries to finish the unfinished animation, but as long as you have the various cuts of the film on either film or video in decent quality, all is okay. And we do have that, so all is okay.

Any artwork that's been saved is simply icing on the cake.



And yeah, this is great news. More news as it develops.



You can get your Thief cafepress stuff at cafepress.com/cobbler, a little site I made for Eddie Bowers' page. If you have any special requests, let me know.
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That's all old news, Dave.

Eh - it was new to me.

Originally posted by: ocpmovie
Here's something interesting ... the Princess and the Cobbler poster with the Thief title on it.

http://www.dacre.org/flash/www/gb100780.jpg


It's for sale on this site - there's two copies available for £13 (listed as Arabian Knight and Arabian Knights):

http://www.dacre.org/flash/www/a_movie.htm

The second copy has a different angle shot -

http://www.dacre.org/flash/www/gb100028.jpg

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Yeah. I have a copy of that poster with the Princess and the Cobbler logo on it (poorly drawn) ... but that looks like the real Thief and the Cobbler logo, hopefully not poorly drawn. (It kind of looks like it IS poorly drawn, but who knows.) It would be nice to have a good quality scan of that.

If anyone can buy that for me and scan it, I can pay you back in a stack of DVDs, the complete collection or whatever.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
If anyone can buy that for me and scan it, I can pay you back in a stack of DVDs, the complete collection or whatever.


I just went to the site to try that. I ended up in their eBay shop, and couldn't find the item. Perhaps that list was out of date


Edit: Just had another look. It's on CQout:

www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=1968177

Seems to be an actual auction, without a "buy it now" option. I've not used CQout so I'm not sure how it works. Also, I'm out of the country as from 29th July, and the auction ends on August 1st, so I'd have trouble paying in time etc.

I'll give them a call today anyway and talk to them about it.

I think the second item might be better than the first, simply because the first looks as if it has black tape stuck to the corners - but that might be nothing.
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Originally posted by: macronencer
Originally posted by: ocpmovie
If anyone can buy that for me and scan it, I can pay you back in a stack of DVDs, the complete collection or whatever.


I just went to the site to try that. I ended up in their eBay shop, and couldn't find the item. Perhaps that list was out of date


Edit: Just had another look. It's on CQout:


I'm pretty sure you can buy it at the set price by contacting the site owner via email:

flashbacks@tiscali.co.uk

And yeah, better ask about which of the two is in better condition.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
If anyone can buy that for me and scan it, I can pay you back in a stack of DVDs, the complete collection or whatever.


ocp, could you possibly give an up-to-date list of the 'complete collection', listing any discs that have been revised? It'd just be nice to know what's available as my girlfriend has become quite interested in the project so I'll probably be getting all the discs from you at some point in the future.

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com