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Why the PT fans love the PT so much, not as diehard as we think — Page 2

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I know when I was a child Darth Vader was the man. Every Halloween I was Darth Vader. My favorite toy Darth Vader and now I see the same reactions in my own children except my oldest insist on calling him Ani. It hurts me to hear that. Anyway, the thread made me stop for a second today and talk to my son about Vader and really make sure he understood that Darth Vader was not a nice guy. My son just looked at me like I was an idiot for trying to explain this to him so I ended the conversation.

My point is it is very disturbing to think of children idolizing the bad guy but at the same time hasn't this always been done to some extent. How many of us on this board felt as I did about Darth Vader when we were children? How many of us dressed up as him on Halloween? How many people have become famous in the past because they were the bad guy? I believe Oliver Stone touched on this subject in Natural Born Killers. Society makes hero's out of rotten people so it's no wonder that there are people who look at Anakin this way. Doesn't mean it's right.
1000 Word Migraine
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Originally posted by: DorK313

My point is it is very disturbing to think of children idolizing the bad guy but at the same time hasn't this always been done to some extent. How many of us on this board felt as I did about Darth Vader when we were children? How many of us dressed up as him on Halloween? How many people have become famous in the past because they were the bad guy? I believe Oliver Stone touched on this subject in Natural Born Killers. Society makes hero's out of rotten people so it's no wonder that there are people who look at Anakin this way. Doesn't mean it's right.


Yeah well you bring up a good point. In my country we don't really celebrate halloween but I think I get what you mean. However when kids dress up as Vader, Vader is like a spookyman to them. They know he is evil but because of that, he is a bit of fun too. Everyone likes to get scared a little, under safe surroundings and occations (like the Halloween). But when people (smart, educated people) start making excuses for Anakins behaviour or seem to be unable to realise that it is evil to kill small children (no matter what the circumstances are) and trying justify Anakins actions, we are talking about something else. I actually read some Star Wars fan ( who was a psychologist) say that Anakin wasn't responsible for his actions because he was in a state of psychosis. If you have a shrink trying to defend Anakin and saying that no court of law would have found him guilty, I start to get a little edgy. It was Anakins hand that held the blade. It was Anakin that CHOSE to to do the emperors bidding. I think children probably will understand this. Well atleast I hope they do. I Hope they understand why Luke is the hero and not Anakin. Luke is willing to give up his life because of love, not kill others for love.
I have done some bad things in my life like we all probably have (not kill anyone but still) and it was allways me that chose to do those bad things. That's why it hurts. Sure there was all sorts of things that can explain my behaviour, but at the end of the day, I chose to do what I did. And it is up to me to choose now how to go on. There is allways a choise. That's the thing. Choise. Anakin could have chosen to not to follow the Emperor. But he chose to follow him. He chose to kill those kids. And in doing so that makes him evil.

P.S. Again sorry for bad English.
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The PT makes me cringe it's so bad. Not in a good way like Plan 9 does either. More like a " the world must surely be doomed if this is the state of play" kind of way.

Deaths shrugged off, clumsy dialogue, confusing politics, unexplained attraction of Padme ( an adult) to Anakin (petulant late teen), horendous dialog, stilted acting, weird looking effects shots with light and shade not matching backgrounds, jedi that seem to be some cross between police/church and boy scouts, and dialogue that just sounds like crap...and thats just in the first ten minutes of AOTC.

I saw PM in the cinema and groaned my way thru it, and so didn't buy the dvd. I waited for AOTC to be released on dvd to watch it, and after watching it just twice, I now struggle to sit through it again. I'm now up to the part where Anakin just chopped up the Tusken raiders, after calling my wife in to laugh at the love sceen dialogue with Padme in front of the fire. So much of the story just baffles me. Why on earth would she be attracted to him? Why has he waited untill now to go find his mother? What kind of slime are the Jedi that they just get Anakin out of slavery, but never question if he would perhaps like to try to get his mother out of slavery as well? If he loves Padme so much, why doesn't he just quit as a Jedi to be with her?

Can someone explain in really, really simple terms of who the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' are within the political factions of the stories in the PT? And who the Jedi answer too, or who funds their cause? Because it seems to me that the Jedi are working for the ' bad guys' throughout the PT.

Anyway, I got to go do the dishes.


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Think of the Emperor as Hitler; the worst dude in the universe.

Think of Anakin as Hero Jewish Soldier. It's not a great parallel, but you get a sense for what kind of bitter enemies we're talking about, Sith vs. Jedi, Good guys vs. Bad guys. And Anakin's got a wife who he loves more than the universe who's dying of cancer. Now...

Clueless doldrums that the Jedi/Jews are, they regularly take meetings with Hitler, who has somehow managed to conceal his identity as leader of the Nazis. In fact, irony of ironies, he's a surrogate father and mentor to Anakin.

One day, Hitler reveals himself to Anakin, whom he thinks - what with all his fighting skills and whatnot - would make a great Nazi. Plus, he reasons, Anakin has been told all his life he's special and powerful, and since Nazis are the ultimate power, it's really in his best interest to join them. It's a good sell, but still, confronted with an absolutely soul-crushing betrayal and world-shattering realization (his lifelong surrogate father is Hitler, genocidal murderer of his people) Anakin decides to kill him. Makes sense so far. But Hitler has an ace up his sleeve: He's got the cure to Padme's cancer, and if Anakin becomes a Nazi, he'll give it to him. And here's where things start to go south.

Tortured and conflicted, Anakin decides to go tell his Jewish Army friends what he's learned. Now, Padme - principled and strong woman that she is - would probably rather die than have Anakin become a Nazi, but Anakin's so blinded by love he can't think about the shit that will hit the fan when he tells the Jewish people, and his Jewish wife, that he decided to become a Nazi. So Anakin rushes to join his army buddies who have gone to arrest Hitler, and what does he find? A bunch more of his friends are dead on the floor and a fellow officer in mortal combat with Hitler. Anakin REALLY, REALLY wants that cure for cancer, so he takes his buddy's gun away and Hitler throws his buddy out the window. Ok, well now he's done it: He is the ultimate traitor - to himself, his cause, his people and his wife. But at least he'll have the cure for cancer.

And then Hitler drops it: He was bullshitting. There is no cure for cancer. Maybe, he suggests, if Anakin wants to work on it with him, they can come up with one. That's literally what he says.

NOW...

You think about this for a second: You're Anakin. You're a Jew. You've fought for Jews all your life, in fact, you've been groomed as King of the Jews or whatever since you were a boy. You just betrayed every last thing you've ever stood for, every person you've ever cared about, and debased yourself as a traitorous piece of shit, FOR NOTHING. NOTHING. There's no cure for the cancer, and now Padme won't want you anyway, 'cuase you're a traitorous piece of shit. Hell, even if you could lie about it, you'd spend the rest of your life tortured with guilt.

You know what would make sense? Anakin goes Bakersfield Chimp and kills Hitler and himself. That I'd buy. That would make sense. I mean, dude has nothing left. But instead, this is what you're expected to believe:

Upon learning that - after a lifetime of deceit and lies at the hands of his surrogate father, Hitler - he, Hero Jewish Soldier has just betrayed his people, his wife and himself for a cancer cure that was just ANOTHER lie, Anakin... decides to join the Nazi party, pledges himself to Adolf Hitler, becomes a one-man Super-SS assassin and immediately sets to slaughtering Jewish women and children, literally.


Now, if you don't recognize this - the entire core of the prequel story - as being quite possibly the most ridiculous, stupid, utterly unrelatable, morally impossible and psychologically clueless idea ever proffered in the history of storytelling, you are, no offense, a moron.


What's that? It was Anakin's powerlust that made him switch? NO IT WASN'T. Didn't you see the movie? "I will do whatever you ask, just help me save Padme's life. I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT HER." It's not about powerlust, it's about saving Padme. And the Emperor says, point blank, that he can't. END OF STORY.

I don't blame you, though. That whole idea of Anakin being power hungry was served up sort of half-assed during most of the prequels, too, I guess in case you didn't buy the love thing. Like that Jesus/Virgin Birth bullshit that May-Or-May-Not-Be-Because-He's-The-Emperor's-Son-or-"Darth Plagueis's kid-or-The-Chosen-One-or-Concieved-by-The-Force-or-any-of-a-bunch-of-other-random-ideas-served-up-vaguely-because-we- have-no-real-focus-or-idea-but-you'll-praise-as-clever-anyway. That ambiguous lack of focus is all over the films.

Could an Anakin character have been written such that if he can't have Padme, at least he'd have power? Sure, but that would be for some other film, because it sure as shit isn't the character written for this series.


DRAMA 101: all movies are about people. Movies about aliens are movies about people. Movies about talking cars are movies about people. Movies about mutants, are movies about people. Anakin the person, doesn't make any sense. It's that simple. His motivations are completely unrelatable. His character arc is impossibly ridiculous, and the entire prequel arc is built on it. The core is rotten.

Add on top of that sub-college-student-film acting by otherwise great actors, 6 hours of Siggraph CGI demo reel shots, most of which look assy, and an endless series of fart jokes, unfunny slapstick and bad accents that make you want to pierce your own eardrums and you're starting to get the picture. Christ, even John Williams didn't get to do the one thing that might've put .0001% heart into this hollow, souless, idiotic waste of time.

There's just not one redeeming quality to these films, other than they're finally over.

I could write a tome breaking down, quantitatively, all the basic errors these films are comprised of. So could tons of other people. Hell, even the casting of Hayden Christensen was a mistake, and that happened before they'd shot one second of film. David Prowse was a 6'7" world-champion bodybuilder. He eats Hayden's weight in food for breakfast. Think that's nitpicking? Think again: have you ever met somebody whose physical size didn't have a direct impact on their personality? Think about short people and the Napoleon Complex, or check Peter Mayhew on "growing up big". People's physical stature has a direct impact on their personality, their social circle, their relationships, everything. The man we see as Darth Vader in the OT, physically strong, arrogant, intelligent... this is NOT the actor, nor the character built in the prequels. Not even REMOTELY the same guy. You know, they described Vader in the OT as the best starpilot in the galaxy, which means he was a fighter jock. Psychologically speaking, real fighter jocks fill a pretty narrow bracket, which happens to be compatible with the dude Vader is presented as in the OT, by the way. Again, not even remotely so in the Anakin character. (No, flying a ship real good isn't actually what makes a fighter jock a fighter jock.)

What's that? Vader "grew" or something? Or his suit was "upgraded", blah blah blah? Well there you have it: if it's not in the films, if it doesn't make any sense, you'll just fill in the gaps, won't you? You'll just make up some arbitrary reason to explain away things that aren't there, and could've been. Or maybe you're young enough, raised on such utter crap storytelling, you can't tell the difference. In the end you see what you want to see, and who can blame you? Nobody in the universe ACTUALLY wants to see little buck-and-a-quarter Hayden Christensen looking like Mini-Me in a fan-made Darth Vader costume stumbling around like Frankenstein, utterly destroying the most iconic film villian of all time. Uh, to quote: "Noooooo!"

Now go play with your Jar Jar doll.


_Mike

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit
This is now a world where one is rewarded for doing nothing, where no one takes responsibility and everyone has an excuse. No wonder they relate to Anakin; they are Anakin. Everyone owes them something for gracing the Earth with their presence. No one should give them a hard time about being an alcoholic because alcoholism is a disease and daddy never loved them. What changed in the last 20, 50, 100 or even 1000 years? Alcoholism has always been a disease and many people have been shafted with less than stellar parents. What changed is that we as a society now accept and in some instances encourage mediocrity. Why do your best when everyone from the star goalie to the bench-warmer gets a ribbon? Why should you step up and accept responsibility for killing children when you can blame it on chemicals and daddy’s mental abuse?


I hope I don't make a post like that until I'm at least 60.

I basically agree with all of your points though. While I don't see modern society falling apart compared to the past, I do see the shift of values in the dominant culture. The PT seems to reflect these shallow and selfish values well. In addition, nobody can identify with Anakin in RotS unless they are completely irrational and missing half a brain. So many nonsensical plot points:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=episode3

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: mverta

What's that? It was Anakin's powerlust that made him switch? NO IT WASN'T. Didn't you see the movie? "I will do whatever you ask, just help me save Padme's life. I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT HER." It's not about powerlust, it's about saving Padme. And the Emperor says, point blank, that he can't. END OF STORY.


You just tapped into another one of the, if not the core, reason that ROTS originally didn't do it for me, not even in theatres. And it's the fact that George, even though claiming in interviews that it was his lust for power, decided to make Anakin much more sympathetic (apparently) by making him do the wrong thing for the right reasons. "Don't blame Anakin," George would say. "He's the hero of the Star Wars universe. He was just trying to save his wife. He did it all for love." Gag. Blech. I always hated that. Like you said, it was definitely compelling enough motivation to get him to that point, but once that point's been reached, then there's no reason for him to stay and continue down that path!

And then, just to try to establish some sense of continuity, they just randomly have Vader bring up the power thing when he's trying to woo Padme to his evil chambers! But I couldn't buy it for a second, because it just seemed totally random. Obi-Wan's, "Your arrogance and your lust for power have already done that," was a line that I admit was chilling... out of context. But then you can't help but think, "I've never really seen this arrogance or lust for power. Up until now in this movie, he's been sort of trembling and crying and regretting his bad decisions." I just don't get it.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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What I hate about the PT is that you have to dig up and dust off poignant sub plots.

Case in point - the eventual distruction of the Jedi and the balance of the force. People usually take it as 10 jedi = 10 sith, balance. At the time of TPM you have the council talking about Anakin bring balance to the force as if it was needed. Do they really want 10,000s of Siths to match up the Jedi Knights? I doubt it. They say that the Sith were gone and were pretty please with themselves. Why were they so enamored with this balance notion?

And what was the actual balance anyway? The Jedi in the movie believed it to be a numarical thing. All the jedi/0 Sith means balance to them. Okay, whatever.

But what I really think the whole point of the Balance was a moral level. At the time of the Old Republic the Jedi had become rather full of themselves. The Sith had been gone for 1000 years and they were now the cream of the crop. They took infants away and trained them in the ways of the Jedi. I doubt they stole any babies but I'm sure tremedous presure was placed on the family to give up the child. This child never saw or heard from his parents again.

Jedi are forbiden to own anything, love anyone, or have a family. Anakin showed how distructive this thought process can be. Had the Jedi simpley allowed marrage none of this would have happened.

Now by the time Luke comes to the scene, things have changed. He isn't the last of the old, but the first of the new. Jedi can get married, have kids, and basically have a life. That is the true balance of the force. A Jedi's life and sense of duty is now in balanced.

Of course, you have to dig down deep in the PT to get any incling of this theory and most of it is just speculation. But if this was a point Lucas was trying to make in the PT it didn't take. No one got it. Only the few film archeologists with too much time on their hands could gleen this.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Now by the time Luke comes to the scene, things have changed. He isn't the last of the old, but the first of the new. Jedi can get married, have kids, and basically have a life. That is the true balance of the force. A Jedi's life and sense of duty is now in balanced.


Even this doesn't come about except in the EU books.
1000 Word Migraine
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This is troll material. I'm sure plenty of PT fans have read the thread as well.
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Originally posted by: Invader Jenny
And what was the actual balance anyway? The Jedi in the movie believed it to be a numarical thing. All the jedi/0 Sith means balance to them. Okay, whatever.


I never understood that much either. I aways assumed it meant that Vader killed all the Jedi and then killed off the Sith. Then everything could begin fresh with Luke and Lea?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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This is one response from a SW thread on another message board of a SW fan who defends all 3 prequels movies:

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well im only 22 so I didnt really grow up with the OT, though I did start watching it at a young age, probably before i was 9-10. Flashyness has nothing to do with it. I could really care less about cgi. In fact I think it really takes away from the movies. For me its all about the concepts. The love scenes in the movies may have been horrible but, I think its the fact that these movies showed how cool the republic was before the empire came about is what does it for me.
I like the underworld movies because I think the story is pretty cool and I can Imagine the world and how cool it would be to explore them. As far as the movies themselves go, they are just popcorn flicks with not much in character development or real substance to them. I guess thats how I feel about the PT. Cool concept but the dilivery is just ok.
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This is my point about the PT fans, do you see them loving these movies like us in 20 years? I think 'creepy' was a strong word, and I may have to change it to 'not as diehard as Lucas thinks'

This a guy defending the PT movies, who calls them popcorn entertainment with not much character development, but cool concepts. That is the great thing about the OT, they are popcorn films taken to another level, and that is why we still love them. If they were your typical summer blockbuster, this site wouldn't exist, and the OT would be just another trilogy loved by a niche base. And this is the fanbase that Lucas caters to now, and gives them high quality DVD's, fans who think their good popcorn movies.
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Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes
I've spent very little time around TFN, so I don't know how far some of these prequel lovers go, but I personally don't have much disdain for the films. Hell, I'd rather defend them than deride them. No matter how "bad" things get in the PT, they're certainly not as bad as the exaggerated awfulness that PT bashers insist on. Heck, the way I see it, all the bashing makes me much more tolerant of the PT. But that's my point of view.


Now, this confuses me. Because other people don't like the PT, you've decided to like/defend them? So if we all stopped talking about what was wrong with the PT, you could dislike them again?

I'm sorry, but that's just weird. When I say I dislike the PT and enumerate various reasons why I dislike it, this is because I dislike it. Nothing there but me, the movie and my reaction to it. What's described here sort of negates one's own personal reaction that is based on other people's reaction. I am reminded of my old roommate who hated Titanic even though he never saw it, based solely on the hype surrounding it. It it wasn't for the hype, he would not have hated Titanic. Possibly would have liked it.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand that. I could understand actually liking them (I don't see how anyone could, but I'll allow for the possibility for someone to have genuine appreciation for the movies). I could understand someone liking them although recognizing them as flawed and taking them as such. But to see them as flawed or to otherwise be disappointed in the films but defending them as if you genuinely liked them just because others express greater dislike for them, I don't get that.

But then, it may be because it's Star Wars. Star Wars has had a profound effect on people since 1977. Something everyone, including Lucas, underestimates. maybe a strong reation is all Star Wars movies can get, either for or against.

Although, I do dislike the PT defenders tendancies towards excuse-making. Let's put a list together, shall we?

[list][*]There was too much expectaion for the PT to possibly live up to it.
[*]Star Wars was never meant to be artistic cinema. It's just a popcorn movie
[/list]

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but these are just excuses, not counter arguements. They basically say don't expect much from the prequels because they are just going to disappoint you if you do.

To be frank, I didn't expect much and was disappointed anyway. I think it's because it followed the obvious path. In another thread i tried to speculate a less obvious path, but there was little interest in such a thing.
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If I have to be honest I like the PT though I dont worship every second of it and consider them to be cinematic masterpieces, but I find the story interesting enough and find them enjoyable enough to watch as entertainment for two hours,and as I explained before in the other thread I dont particulary care/have no interest in/for the whole 12hr saga bit so I dont need or want to get into it that deep and be as "geeky" like they do at TF.n. and other places
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People usually take it as 10 jedi = 10 sith, balance.

As far as I'm concerned at the end of ep3 there was balance. There was Obi-Wan and Yoda, the Emporer and Darth Vader. Seems pretty balanced to me. That is unless you take the EU in account which had Jedi all over the place.
1000 Word Migraine
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Originally posted by: Invader Jenny
Case in point - the eventual distruction of the Jedi and the balance of the force. People usually take it as 10 jedi = 10 sith, balance. At the time of TPM you have the council talking about Anakin bring balance to the force as if it was needed. Do they really want 10,000s of Siths to match up the Jedi Knights? I doubt it. They say that the Sith were gone and were pretty please with themselves. Why were they so enamored with this balance notion?

And what was the actual balance anyway? The Jedi in the movie believed it to be a numarical thing. All the jedi/0 Sith means balance to them. Okay, whatever.


The balance to the Force is a brilliant concept that was less than brilliantly executed in the PT. It is not equal numbers of Jedi to Sith. That is a common misconception. See, the Sith and their use of the Force create imbalance, so the Jedi kill their Sithy asses and create balance. Or so it seems to be.

Personally, I think this whole idea should have been taken deeper and would be prime material for a sequel trilogy, but lucas won't do it.
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Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
If I have to be honest I like the PT though I dont worship every second of it and consider them to be cinematic masterpieces, but I find the story interesting enough and find them enjoyable enough to watch as entertainment for two hours,and as I explained before in the other thread I dont particulary care/have no interest in/for the whole 12hr saga bit so I dont need or want to get into it that deep and be as "geeky" like they do at TF.n. and other places


I feel the same way, and it is the story that interests me being part of the SW lore, and not the characters, and that is a huge negative to any movie, let alone three.

Every person I know who is a SW fan loves the OT, and thinks the PT is good/alright/entertaining. They all cut it slack because it is SW, and that is the ironic thing about the term 'basher' cause if most fans saw Episode I as the #1 movie right out of the gate, they would be asking for my money back. But OT fans give the PT alot of slack cause they want to see it as the saga 1-6, but through time, realize it just doesn't work for them, so they kinda look at the PT as popcorn movies, or dare I say a 'guilty pleasure'

And that is how I feel about the prequels, I can enjoy the movies if I dont' look too deep into them, if I don't invest myself into the characters, and if I take them for what they are, "Not great movies, but they still are in that galaxy, far, far, away, so I can enjoy it."

That to me is how the majority perceive the PT, I don't think the majority are the fans that love it to death and hate it to death. The big argument I hear at TF.n is how will the PT be perceived in 10-20 years, cause the OT was not a classic until the 90's. And that is where I disagree with them, and they are not understanding their SW history.

SW '77 was always a classic, and that has never changed. The only thing that has shifted in 25 years is ESB & ROTJ, in my opinion. Most, not all, fans probably loved ROTJ more as a kid than ESB, cause of the lighter tone, and as time wore on and we got older, we noticed how great ESB really was. Plus back in 1980 nobody was expecting a cliffhanger ending, so they felt cheated, but as part of the trilogy, it works just fine.

The PT is different cause everyone is a SW fan now, and we knew in general what the story was for us. I have yet to talk to a person who says 7 years later, "I thought TPM was alright, but in 2006, man it is a great movie!" The PT gushers don't even say that, they say, "The movie is better to me now, cause I understand alot of what Lucas was doing after ROTS." But except for the few wackos, TPM & AOTC are pretty average movies to the masses. And I believe ROTS is on that way for many, but will always stand out as the best to the majority of PT fans just cause it is the meat of the story. They don't care if its a great movie, but it has the duel, Vader being built, Order 66, and the kids being born. To me what PT fans love is the great moments they feel the movies possess, I just look at SW & ESB are just great overall movies, and that goes a long way 20 years from now.
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Originally posted by: CO
And that is how I feel about the prequels, I can enjoy the movies if I dont' look too deep into them, if I don't invest myself into the characters, and if I take them for what they are, "Not great movies, but they still are in that galaxy, far, far, away, so I can enjoy it."


See, that's precisely why I don't like the PT. Because I've come to regard them as not Star Wars, I don't care what it says on the DVD case (in the store, mind you. I don't own them) Hence why I frequent a OT forum. Heh.

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Originally posted by: jack Spencer Jr
Originally posted by:

See, that's precisely why I don't like the PT. Because I've come to regard them as not Star Wars, I don't care what it says on the DVD case (in the store, mind you. I don't own them) Hence why I frequent a OT forum. Heh.


I agree with you, and I still consider the saga 4-6, cause it just doesn't work 1-6 for me. Just cause I can enjoy them as guilty pleasures, doesn't mean I love them. When Back to the Future III comes on TV, I will watch it, but I know in my heart is inferior to Part II, and doesn't even come close to the original, but it is part of the series, so I can enjoy that as a guilty pleasure too.

But the bottom line for me is, will I sit down 10 years from now and say to myself, "You know what I am in the mood for, The Phantom Menace, I have been dying to watch it!!!" That aint going to happen with any of the Prequels, cause they won't pass the test of time with me, just like Back to the Future III, and just like many of the Rocky Sequels, I can watch them all when they are on Cable on a Saturday Afternoon, but I have yet to yearn to watch them on DVD years after their release.

Back to the Future, Rocky, Superman: The Movie, Raiders of the Lost Ark are all movies that I yearn to watch on DVD cause they are great movies, but their sequels are all guilty pleasures. The difference with the OT movies, especially SW & ESB is they are great movies that aren't guilty pleasures, I still yearn to watch all 3, and that is why I will always see the saga 4-6, and the rest as EU crap.
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I just look at 1-3 as just more Star Wars fan films, sort of like the ones on Youtube, except with a bigger budget.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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I respect everyone's opion here, but for me, personally, I see little to no redeemable value for AotC or RotS as basic movies. In other words, they are only liked by people to any degree because they are in the Star Wars universe. If they weren't, they would have failed at the box office. Even TPM would have had a tough time making a profit in my mind, despite being the only movie of the PT that can stand as a movie on its own.


Originally posted by: Nanner Split
I just look at 1-3 as just more Star Wars fan films, sort of like the ones on Youtube, except with a bigger budget.


That's probably the healthiest way to regard the PT.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Well, I dont know about these young kids idolizing Anakin. However, when i was little, during the time of the OT, my favorite character was Darth Vader. Plus I was a girl, so I don't know what I was thinking exactly, but I think it may have to do with little kids wanting to be powerful. I've heard it described before too. From the age of around 3-5 I liked Darth Vader the best, then after that I moved on to Luke, Leia and Han being my faves. Little kids desire power because they don't have any, and are dependent on everyone else for everything practically in their lives.

And I recently rediscovered Superman. I watched 1 and 2 when they came on tv as a kid, and enjoyed them, but they never really got to me, I think. Now after watching especially 1, I feel like it's a treasure I never realized before. I consider it one of the great blockbusters, and there really are so few of those ever made.
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Originally posted by: skye_solo
Well, I dont know about these young kids idolizing Anakin. However, when i was little, during the time of the OT, my favorite character was Darth Vader. Plus I was a girl, so I don't know what I was thinking exactly, but I think it may have to do with little kids wanting to be powerful. I've heard it described before too. From the age of around 3-5 I liked Darth Vader the best, then after that I moved on to Luke, Leia and Han being my faves. Little kids desire power because they don't have any, and are dependent on everyone else for everything practically in their lives.
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The reason we loved Vader as kids cause he was just a cool bad guy and nothing is wrong with that. He wasn't this guy who had all these emotional problems who has ethical dilemmas with killing Tuskens, Younglings, and choking his wife, that is the difference.

Vader to us was just another cool bad guy who we all tried to do his breathing on the playground. That is healthy to like badguys, heck, I loved The Joker in Batman '89 only because he was just a cool bad guy. But in the OT days, as much as we love Vader, we had good guys like Luke to offset Vader and show to the public, this is an example of a good guy.

The difference with PT Anakin/Vader is it comes down to morals now, and just read my sig, and that my beef with the whole story. I will go as far to say I think Lucas should take Anakin out as Force Ghost all together now if someone watches it 1-6, cause he does not deserve to sit there smiling next to Kenobi and Yoda after what he did.

Doing bad things in war time and losing ones self to power can happen to anybody, and there is something redeeming about that. Killing a bunch of children and choking your wife, are you telling me I am suppose to root for this guy in ROTJ, and then sit there and enjoy his conversation to his son that he tried to kill Lukes mom? To me that is moral bankruptcy at its worst, and it is everything I didn't envision Darth Vader doing. That is the difference between kids today who love Anakin and us liking Vader at 10 years old.
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Originally posted by: Darth-Adroit


This is now a world where one is rewarded for doing nothing, where no one takes responsibility and everyone has an excuse. No wonder they relate to Anakin; they are Anakin. Everyone owes them something for gracing the Earth with their presence. .....Why do your best when everyone from the star goalie to the bench-warmer gets a ribbon?
PT fans can’t help being PT fans just like many of us can’t help being OT fans. In both instances the films reflect the world of the fans on a fundamental level. In a nutshell:

OT Fan: Give me liberty or give me death.

PT Fan: Give me that it’s mine.



Outstanding post, Adroit !!
We were having a discussion at work about that, just the other day. Like you, when I was a kid we didn't graduate from the sixth grade or get a fifth place trophy. We were rewarded for achievement - not participation. 60 minutes did a fascinating piece on the Echo Boomers several months ago. As they are now entering the real world, they were all (about 10 of them interviewed) very matter-of-fact about how they fully expect to succeed at everything they choose to do.

Here's a link to the transcript. It's very interesting. The Echo-boomers don't have the slightest idea of what a $hitstorm adult life can really be.


60 Minutes transcript
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Hmm, I've never heard of the term echo-boomers to describe the generation after the baby boomers. How long has that been around?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
I hope I don't make a post like that until I'm at least 60.


Well I’m only 33, but I was born 100 years too late so that probably explains my disposition. I’m a throwback.



Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape Hmm, I've never heard of the term echo-boomers to describe the generation after the baby boomers. How long has that been around?


Some use the term to differentiate between young members of Gen-Y (Boomer Echo 1995-2005) and older members (Gen-Y 1985-1995), which is what I think Anchorhead was using it for.

They are Generation Y and even though they are primarily the children of boomers they fall two generations beyond the boomers. Here’s the typical breakdown:

Silent Generation 1925-1945
Baby Boomers 1945-1965
Generation X 1965-1985
Generation Y (Boomer Echo) 1985-2005

There are some variations and those are ballpark numbers. Boomer Echo is a self –centered and insulting term for Gen-Y invented by boomers. Think about what the two terms really mean:

Gen-Y: The generation that followed Gen-X

Boomer Echo: The less accomplished, less revolutionary, less artistic generation that is an echo of boomer greatness.

Boomer echo is just a term invented by self-absorbed Boomers. It has recently become popular because Boomers members of the media have made it that way. The issues that Gen-Y types have are really just a result of their parents; lots of over-parenting where it isn’t needed (50 lbs of padding to ride a bike, acting as a defense attorney for their children) and very little parenting where it is needed (a blowjob is sex even if the President said otherwise). It’s sad because there’s a whole generation out there that never lost a game, never faced down a bully and never skinned a knee. Eventually they will face all of those challenges they’ll just do it 20 years later in life. Unfortunately for them the stakes get higher as you move on in life. Make a wrong turn on your bike and you wind up in the bushes, make a wrong turn in a car and you wind up dead.

These definitions are not written in stone and there are definitely exceptions, but I think the general trends are set until Gen-Y proves otherwise. It’s possible; my generation was derided and beaten down by the Boomers. They gave us a hard time when we entered the workforce. Most of that has died off since productivity numbers show Gen-X is making real contributions to the economy. It isn’t Gen-Y’s turn yet (shit it isn’t Gen-X’s turn yet), but when their time comes they’ll find a way to shine just like every other generation has.

"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
- Darth-Adroit

“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit