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Watched ROTS on HBO, UGGGH! — Page 3

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I am glad Lucas only gave suited Vader only two minutes, because it was only 2 minutes of ruining the character, and not any more. Just think of so many OT characters, the more we knew, the less we liked:

Boba Fett: Do I really give a shit about his childhood? This guy is a mysterious bounty hunter in ESB, and now Lucas decides to flesh out this character in the PT?

C-3PO: His bad puns in AOTC as his head was being dragged, to be being built by Anakin none the less. To finally actually flying to Mustafar with Padme, but this time he was actually flying the ship! That's right, and then he flies the ship when Kenobi leaves! When did C-3PO become a pilot?

R2-D2: Or should I say PT CG R2. He is flying around in AOTC, he is this nimble droid kicking ass at the beginning of ROTS, and then he gets to the OT, and he is this clutsy droid?

The Emperor in ROTS: What was with the whole turn scene and his voice? What was with him burning his face with lightning against Mace? Was he taking one for the team? I loved him in ROTJ, as calculating and evil, now he is just a cackling fool in ROTS, or more like The Joker in Batman '89.

Uncle Owen & Aunt Beru: Thank god we only got 2 minutes of them too, cause he didn't ruin SW '77 Owen & Beru with the PT, except Owen owning C-3PO for ten years?

Jabba the Hutt: Totally ruined now when watching it 1-6, as he is put in there as a cameo to watch the podrace. Oh well, the SE really lost his great entrance in ROTJ, and that was the whole point all through the OT, who is this jabba creature?

Bail Organa: Should have been a huge part of the PT, but wasted on a good actor like Jimmy Smits.

Governor Tarkin: Zero lines, that is why I thought his cameo was the best in the PT, he couldn't say or do anything that would screw up continuity. Oh wait, he is standing in front of that death they are building, can you hurry up, you only have another 20 years til Episode IV?

I say to every OT cameo and more suited Vader just one word, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Suited Vader summed it up better than any of us could have.
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
I'm glad they didn't ruin my image of Vader any more than they already have. Seeing a skinny-necked Hayden-in-a-suit Vader would have totally destroyed his menace in the OT. As it stands it's only severely tarnished.


Yeah, at least only having him attached to the table and then walking about a couple of steps was believable. If he did actually have action to do, it would have become very apparent that this new suited Vader, Jr. was about half the carbs of the original suited Vader... and he doesn't even come with fries or a drink. Even with the little footage there is, I can't help but think that he still looks a lot like a little boy trying on his father's work clothes. It just looks pretty roomy.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Vader NEVER should have been shown, or even referred to by name in ROTS. He only ever should have been seen physically as Anakin Skywalker, and referred to as Anakin Skywalker. Vader should be seen for the first time in ANH, and not fully revealed as Anakin until ROTJ. That would maintain the mystery, the drama, and the surprises of the OT when the movies are watched chronologically. The last we should see of Anakin as an audience is when Kenobi supposedly kills him. As an audience, you think he's dead. Then, in the OT you're shocked to learn that he survived and has become Darth Vader. That's good storytelling, something Lucas has made every effort to avoid.
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Originally posted by: CO
R2-D2: Or should I say PT CG R2. He is flying around in AOTC, he is this nimble droid kicking ass at the beginning of ROTS, and then he gets to the OT, and he is this clutsy droid? Chefelf sums it up hilariously:

"It started out with Artoo zapping a vulture droid, but it doesn't take long before they turn R2-D2 into Jean-Claude friggin' Van Damme!

In the docking bay of Grievous's ship, R2 gets bullied by two super battle droids. R2 doesn't sweat it and decides that he's had it up to here with being a regular astromech droid. In Attack of the Clones, R2 decided he was tired of not being able to fly and just took off with mystery jets that came out of nowhere. In Revenge of the Sith, Artoo extends a hose to shoot out some sort of crude oil all over a super battle droid. Both droids begin slipping in the "blood" and Artoo ignites his mystery jets which starts a blaze that broils the two droids alive. This, of course, met with thunderous applause in the theater, which was apparently populated almost entirely with simpletons.

In regards to R2-D2 flying, the only thing that seems to make sense is this: Maybe R2 could fly because he believed in himself. But after the rise of the Empire, he lost his faith that magical things are possible".

Originally posted by: JediFlyer06
Vader NEVER should have been shown, or even referred to by name in ROTS. He only ever should have been seen physically as Anakin Skywalker, and referred to as Anakin Skywalker. Vader should be seen for the first time in ANH, and not fully revealed as Anakin until ROTJ. That would maintain the mystery, the drama, and the surprises of the OT when the movies are watched chronologically. The last we should see of Anakin as an audience is when Kenobi supposedly kills him. As an audience, you think he's dead. Then, in the OT you're shocked to learn that he survived and has become Darth Vader. That's good storytelling, something Lucas has made every effort to avoid.
Agreed. This is what I hoped, even assumed would and should have been the case.



War does not make one great.

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I must say I don't agree. What we have here is a conflict of interests. I, and it seems most of us here, believe that the movies shouldn't be watched in chronological order. The prequels exist solely to explain everything in the OT. While it doesn't always do a good job of that, it's impossible for the prequels to spoil anything in the OT because you would have seen the OT already. Now, this is consistent with the way that George wrote and directed the prequels. He uncovers all the secrets, reveals all the spoilers, and throws in about as many nods and ripoffs of the OT as humanly possible. The conflict of interest is that George claims we're supposed to watch them in chronological order. It makes no sense to me that he would say that, since every action he took in making them suggests otherwise. If he'd really wanted us to watch them this way (which I still wouldn't), he would have made them to flow that way. But the truth of the matter is, they're just not supposed to be viewed that way. He'd have to be an idiot not to see that.

P.S. And I'm still glad they called him Vader before the suit, something that wouldn't have been possible if the not-really-that-much-of-a-surprise-to-anyone was supposed to be maintained.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: JediFlyer06
Vader NEVER should have been shown, or even referred to by name in ROTS. He only ever should have been seen physically as Anakin Skywalker, and referred to as Anakin Skywalker. Vader should be seen for the first time in ANH, and not fully revealed as Anakin until ROTJ. That would maintain the mystery, the drama, and the surprises of the OT when the movies are watched chronologically. The last we should see of Anakin as an audience is when Kenobi supposedly kills him. As an audience, you think he's dead. Then, in the OT you're shocked to learn that he survived and has become Darth Vader. That's good storytelling, something Lucas has made every effort to avoid.


Great post, and never really thought of it that way, cause I never think of 1-6 order, always thinking 4-6, 1-3. But I will even go a step further, and not even have Luke & Leia being named in ROTS either. And not even showing them going to their foster parents either so the only thing you see is Padme giving birth, having two kids and dying.

Thus the reveal in ESB is preserved about Vader being Lukes father, and the reveal about Luke/Leia being siblings in ROTJ is preserved.

You are so right, and that is why 1-6 is so lame, because everything is known going into Episode IV. Zero suspense for the way Lucas tells the fans to watch it now. Atleast with 4-6, 1-3 the backstory is intriguing cause you wonder what made Vader turn, now you are just waiting for him to tell his offspring he is their father, what kind of drama does that hold?
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I, and it seems most of us here, believe that the movies shouldn't be watched in chronological order. The prequels exist solely to explain everything in the OT. But that's not what George thinks (or at least not what he tells us). He wants us (and future generations) to watch them chronologically, and, that being the case, he should have strived to make them work chronologically, which would mean preserving the twists and revelations of the OT.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
He'd have to be an idiot not to see that.
No comment.

War does not make one great.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Very, very true. And for all you people complaining about not seeing Vader in the suit enough, remember this. Fans complained for years about not using Boba Fett enough. I don't have to finish this story. You know how it ends. Food for thought.


I was thinking on broader terms. Allso trying to think of what is the essence of Star Wars. Darth Vader is the icon of Star Wars. First thing you think about when someone says "Star Wars" is Vader. Vader was how they marketed the prequels. He is far more iconic than Boba Fett. He might be the greatest villain in movie history. We were supposed to learn how a good man becomes this monster that is Vader. Taking all that into consideration, it is strange that we only see 2 minutes of him. If I had said years a go that Vader will only get 2 minutes of screen time in the PT, no one would have believed it. Now the way Lucas set the story there was no room for suited Vader, but it didn't have be that way. The story was not set in stone. Most of TPM and AOTC was filler anyway. Yes Anakin is named Vader by Palpatine but he is not Vader yet. Vader is a determined man. He doesn't waiver or hesitate. Vader is pure will. What he will's, happens. Anakin hesitates. Not Vader. Anakin was Vader only in name. He became Vader sometime after ROTS. Vader doesn't cry after his wife. Vader doesn't cry after blowing up Alderaan. Anakin does because he is a fagile man. Vader is a machine. Efficient, cold and calculating. Because that's how things get done. And when Luke comes around Anakin starts waking up from his slumber and feeling emotions again but not before that. So in short, I don't believe we saw Vader at all in the prequels.
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Well, personally, the first thing I think of when I think of Star Wars is Luke.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Oh hell. "Luke" Damn you. Okay the second thing when somebody says Star Wars has gotta be "Vader".
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Yep. Exactly. I relate Star Wars with Luke Skywalker, as do millions of individuals who grew up with his adventures. The people who grew up on Star Wars always would relate Star Wars with Luke, because he was the hero of the OT. Anakin was introduced as the protaginist in the PT.

BTW I don't conisder the Star Wars saga to be about anakin. After all, he's only a cold heartless villan in the OT, until the very end. I conisder Star Wars to be about the struggle between good and evil--played out in the stars.
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Great post, and never really thought of it that way, cause I never think of 1-6 order, always thinking 4-6, 1-3. But I will even go a step further, and not even have Luke & Leia being named in ROTS either. And not even showing them going to their foster parents either so the only thing you see is Padme giving birth, having two kids and dying.

Thus the reveal in ESB is preserved about Vader being Lukes father, and the reveal about Luke/Leia being siblings in ROTJ is preserved.



Oh, I agree with you. Luke and Leia should not have been seen or named. In a world of good storytelling, Anakin's wife would have fled Anakin, probably with Obi-wan as her guardian, to protect her unborn child from what her husband has become (because the turn to the dark side wouldn't happen in five minutes), and the birth of the twins would happen off-screen, or better yet, between movies. The children and their fates would be unknown to the viewer until ANH. THEN, after her children have been safely hidden, she would try to confront (if at all) Anakin to win him over to the dark side, yada, yada, yada. So many wasted opportunities to weave a really deep and continuous story as opposed to a movie version of star wars theme ride.
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Oh, I agree with you. Luke and Leia should not have been seen or named. In a world of good storytelling, Anakin's wife would have fled Anakin, probably with Obi-wan as her guardian, to protect her unborn child from what her husband has become (because the turn to the dark side wouldn't happen in five minutes), and the birth of the twins would happen off-screen, or better yet, between movies. The children and their fates would be unknown to the viewer until ANH. THEN, after her children have been safely hidden, she would try to confront (if at all) Anakin to win him over to the dark side, yada, yada, yada. So many wasted opportunities to weave a really deep and continuous story as opposed to a movie version of star wars theme ride.


That is what makes me laugh at all the fans who saw it 4-6, 1-3, but now say you have to watch it 1-6 because George says so. All those fans would have been pissed after ROTS if Lucas did not show Vader being built, the twins being born, and all the closure that movies gives in the sense of a backstory telling point of view. All of this stuff in there does not make sense from a 1-6 point of view.
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I totally agree with you guys re: Hayden in the Vader suit. I didn't spell it out in my comments earlier but if I were Lucas, I would've had the correct sized actor in the suit, no doubt about it...
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Well, like I said, it was relatively suitable (no pun intended) for the very few scenes it was used in. I can understand Hayden's excitement in wanting to wear the suit, and I'm sure I would have wanted to do the same thing. But if it had had any more exposure than it did, a larger actor would have been necessary, yes.

And, yes, CO's post is in total accord with mine. How was Sith marketed? As the final installment in Star Wars! Personal feelings aside of how well it did its job, its job was to tie up loose ends and provide closure. It wasn't marketed as "Part III of the six part Star Wars saga!" It was marketed as the end. The very end. That's how almost everyone who saw it in theatres saw it as, and that's simply the way it should be viewed, when viewed at all.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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If the PT is marked as the "Anakin Story" why does Ewan McGreggor get top billing in the movies? Kind of odd, don't ya' think? Mark Hamill got top billing in the OT... who do you think that trilogy is about, hmm?
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Yeah, that always bugged me, especially in The Phantom Menace where he was fourth billed! Even in Sith, where he's unarguably the main character, he still gets a measly third billing!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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The thing about movies: top billing goes to the biggest name actor. I know it annoys the hell out of me to see Liv Tyler get billing over Viggo in LOTR, but that's how it is.

Prior to opening that thread, I actually thought people were bitching about HBO showing a cropped version of ROTS in HD.

Needless to say, I really like the movie. It's definitely flawed, but I don't really mind most of these points of contention that many of you bring up.

The thing I hated the most out of Revenge of the Sith is the opening sequence on board the ship. When I saw the film for the first time, there was something about the sequence that irked me. I couldn't really place it, but now I think it's R2's fault. Lucas's desire to put some more family-friendly material really slows down the sequence in the movie. While I was listening to the commentary, I was surprised that Rick McCallum actually fought to have all the R2 stuff removed. Unfortunately, Rick ends up saying something to the effect of "Good thing George kept it! He's a genius!"

I don't mind Hayden's acting at all. He seems to come from a different school of drama than we're usually used to. It's something I've also noticed in fellow actor James Franco (Harry in the Spidey films). They seem to come from a place that's more emotional. There's a level of amplified emotions in their performances. When they cry, they sob. It can seem more forced, but it's also rawer. I'm probably not explaining this well at all, but when I see Hayden delivering a line, it doesn't seem wrong to me. But perhaps I'm just more forgiving in the field of acting than others. I admire a great performance, but personally, all I look for is whether I can believe the actor in the part. When I see Hayden, he looks like Anakin. When I hear him speak, it fits the character.
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Speaking of R2 and the PT, it makes me laugh now more than ever when Obi-Wan says in the original SW, "Funny, I don't remember owning any droinds." Umm, okay, like you wouldn't recognize C3PO and R2!!! You know, the two droids you had so much interaction with in the PT!
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Maybe it was the Tatooine sun that affected Obi's memory.


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I hate it when people claim it's all in line with Obi-Wan's cover-up to Luke. Yeah, right. As if there's any real threat to national security to admit, "Yeah, I know that little domed guy and that gold guy." I mean, that would be like listening to Leia's message and have Obi-Wan say to Luke, "I-I-I didn't know her father. I don't know what she's talking about. Clone Wars? What are those?" And then to himself, "Phew, glad I covered that up. Now Luke will never find out about his father."

The simple solution: not have the droids in the PT. They don't belong. Nothing feels more forced in all the prequels than the inclusion of R2 and 3PO. And I love how Lucas claims all the time that characters don't just wander into a story. Well, they certainly wandered into the prequels and never left!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: JediFlyer06
Vader NEVER should have been shown, or even referred to by name in ROTS. He only ever should have been seen physically as Anakin Skywalker, and referred to as Anakin Skywalker. Vader should be seen for the first time in ANH, and not fully revealed as Anakin until ROTJ. That would maintain the mystery, the drama, and the surprises of the OT when the movies are watched chronologically. The last we should see of Anakin as an audience is when Kenobi supposedly kills him. As an audience, you think he's dead. Then, in the OT you're shocked to learn that he survived and has become Darth Vader. That's good storytelling, something Lucas has made every effort to avoid.


Ah crap, I just made a thread about this. Oh well.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes
The thing about movies: top billing goes to the biggest name actor. I know it annoys the hell out of me to see Liv Tyler get billing over Viggo in LOTR, but that's how it is.



Yeah but for ROTJ Harrison Ford was now well known for both Star Wars and Indiana Jones and he still gets #3 on the poster. I donno.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Originally posted by: ESHBG
Speaking of R2 and the PT, it makes me laugh now more than ever when Obi-Wan says in the original SW, "Funny, I don't remember owning any droinds." Umm, okay, like you wouldn't recognize C3PO and R2!!! You know, the two droids you had so much interaction with in the PT!


I certainly wouldn't recognize them. They're common models of droids. It would be like recognizing a toaster that your roommate used twenty years ago.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
Originally posted by: ESHBG
Speaking of R2 and the PT, it makes me laugh now more than ever when Obi-Wan says in the original SW, "Funny, I don't remember owning any droinds." Umm, okay, like you wouldn't recognize C3PO and R2!!! You know, the two droids you had so much interaction with in the PT!


I certainly wouldn't recognize them. They're common models of droids. It would be like recognizing a toaster that your roommate used twenty years ago.

Very bad analogy IMO because Obi-Wan ackknowledges both R2 and 3PO numerous times throughout the PT. I find it very hard to believe that you wouldn't recognize a toaster that co-piloted your best friend's ship, a toaster that flew Padme to the planet where you killed your best friend...