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Watched ROTS on HBO, UGGGH! — Page 2

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To me Sith was just that, the best of the prequel trilogy, nothing more. I take it like the End of Evangelion, an alternate ending, but in this case an alternate begining.
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It really is a weak-ass movie in it's Lucas incarnation. I couldn't watch the whole thing on HBO. My wife and I kept talking about all the bad points ... especially the fall to the dark side. I really can only watch the version I've done and enjoy it. With most of the garbage out, it makes it a watchable film.

But it will never be The Empire Strikes Back no matter how you re-edit.

Interestingly, I've watched Batman Begins about 4 times now on HBO, and will stop surfing every time I hit it. And I still felt the need to bring my DVD of the film to see my parents recently, sitting them down to watch it. And they, too, were duly surprised by what an amazing film it is.

ROTS gets worse with each viewing, Batman Begins gets better with each viewing. Therein lies the difference between truly great filmmaking and shlock. What a mixed-up fixed-up topsy-turvy world we live in where Star Wars sucks and a Batman film is deep, moving cinema.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Excellent point, CO. That's what I've been trying to say since it came out. In a lot of ways, I consider it to be the worst of the prequels. I enjoyed watching its predecessors immensely when they first came out in theatres (even though their values have diminished over time), but ROTS was the only one I actually groaned and laughed at on first viewing. Everyone complains about the turn scene, but compared with some of the other crap in that movie, it was one of the best scenes. The only thing that really interests me is Anakin's story. Despite its flaws, it contains some compelling moments. Everything else was just total crap. Let's review:

The first half hour could have been okay even though it dragged, but R2's craaaazy wild and super cool antics just made me want to vomit. For all of you who hate the Ewoks, R2 in this movie was ten times worse than any Ewok!

Any scene with Grievous automatically made my skin crawl. The whole subplot with Obi-Wan and Grievous was just so torturous and boring. That stupid lizard's howl gave me a headache. Grievous crawling like a bug to his stupid vehicle was just embarrassing. The only thing I liked was the end when Grievous died (because he was finally dead), and Obi-Wan was disgusted at using a blaster. Pointless and annoying minor character.

The Wookie battle. What Wookie battle? I swear, and I know I've said this before, but I left the theatre the first time and about half an hour later I realized there were supposed to be Wookies fighting in this movie... and I had absolutely no memory of it ever happening! When I came back the second time, I prepped myself upon going in to watch out for the Wookie battle. Halfway through it, I realized I hadn't been paying attention to the scene I had told myself to watch out for. To this day, I don't really recall what was going on. It was boring and pointless.

And then a series of scenes that would have been heartwrenching and powerful if not for one, idiotic word: Younglings. I let it slide when Yoda said it in AOTC. I figured it was just some pet name. But, no, this is the official name for Jedi children. When that realization hit me, I was appalled. And then I was amused. And every time the word was mentioned, I would laugh. And I don't think I'm supposed to laugh at a scene where the main characters are agonizing over the slaughter of children. I blame George for turning me into a cold-hearted bastard.

So what are we left with? Anakin's stuff. That's about half an hour to an hour's worth of footage left. Throw back in the Padme and Mon Mothma scenes, and you might have a decent movie.

But what's left contains some really good moments, better than any scenes in the rest of the prequels. But like someone else said, good scenes does not a good movie make. The good stuff is heavily weighed down by the crap, and it's impossible to think of it as a good film. Nothing in the other two prequels managed to match up to the level of crap in Sith.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
and Obi-Wan was disgusted at using a blaster. You know, I only just now 'got' the 'so uncivilised ' line. Until now I thought he was calling the deceased Grievous uncivilised in a sort of James Bond/Scharzenegger one liner that you say to the dead guy. I didn't realise it was a nod to his 'more civilised age' line in A New Hope. Not a very good nod, but still a nod.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The Wookie battle. What Wookie battle? I swear, and I know I've said this before, but I left the theatre the first time and about half an hour later I realized there were supposed to be Wookies fighting in this movie... and I had absolutely no memory of it ever happening! When I came back the second time, I prepped myself upon going in to watch out for the Wookie battle. Halfway through it, I realized I hadn't been paying attention to the scene I had told myself to watch out for. To this day, I don't really recall what was going on. It was boring and pointless.
I had the exact same experience.

War does not make one great.

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This is why ROTS might be my least favorite of the prequels. It gets worse everytime I see it. The best scene is Anakin vs. Obi Wan, mostly because its a fight with ZERO dialouge, until the final scene, in which the dialouge is quite good. While AOTC gets absolutely nothing accomplished other then balndly setting up the romance between Anakin and Padme, and the clone war. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Episodes one and two should have been one episode. Anakin's turn would have been in Episode Two, and episode three would have connected the two trilogies. (And Oh yeah, Irvin Kershner would have directed all three with Lawrence Kasdan writing the scripts on all of them.) Anyway, back to why I like ep. 2 the most. I think I like it the most because it is easily the most watchable. Unlike ROTS, it doesn't decline in quality each time I see it. It's stayed firm at "pretty bad." I would like TPM the most...except for the horrible dialouge and whatever kid they got for Anakin. I can't ever watch TPM now because that kid Anakin was a horrible, horrible actor. Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor made the perfect jedi pair, thier dialouge being the best in the series and Qui-Gon being a very good charecter. But the quality of thier partnership doesn't make up for the Gungans and Jar-Jar. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a Jar-Jar hater. He's harmless. But he does give me a headache. TPM also feels the most like a film, as there wasn't so much damned CGI. But still, I think I might like AOTC the best.

But wait....reading back through my post....I realized that TPM, even with an overdose of Jar-Jar and the stupid can't-act kid....it IS the best of the PT. The pros. outweigh the cons I guess. Strike what I said earlier, I've changed my position. TPM would be my favorite PT film. I also forgot to mention that "Duel of the Fates" is my favorite lightsaber battle next to Darth Vader vs. Luke in ESB.
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I agree. I'm beginning to realize more and more that my stance is shifting to TPM being my favorite prequel. It has a lot of crap in it, too, and by crap I mean things that conflict with the real trilogy, especially the whole Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan thing. But like you said, looking at it by itself and ignoring its place in the saga, their relationship is handled pretty well. I don't really mind Jar-Jar. There were certainly worse things in the prequels than him. A lot of scenes were on location. It felt more real. In terms of the production, it was handled like a real movie. Things that needed to be on bluescreen were on bluescreen. The rest used locations and sets. Some of the sets had CG enhancements as needed. The lightsaber battle was really good and was slightly reminiscent of the ESB battle (which will always be my favorite). The battle droids are always annoying, and the Gungan/droid battle wasn't the best, but it is a prequel, so you have to take your lumps. But there's nothing really standout bad for it. It's not fine cinema, but it flows well enough as a standalone movie, I'm beginning to realize. The DVD podrace scenes are a disaster, but I don't count that as part of the actual movie since it was crap added in later (why, I couldn't tell you). I'm not by any means saying it's great, and there's a lot of stuff in there that could be better, but compared to a lot of stuff in ROTS, it shines.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I still can't understand why we never got to see Vader helping the Emperor to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. Don't tell me the "younglings" count.

Steve
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I think Phantom Menace was the best prequel as well. Qui-Gon was the best character out of any of the prequels, the pacing was a lot better, and the saber fight at the end was spectacular. I don't know, it just has the adventurous, Star Wars feel a lot more than the other ones.

Oh yeah, and most of it was filmed on location or on set. That may have something to do with it.

The whole prequel thing just makes me really sad, because there are a million different directions the PT could have gone in that would have been so much better than what we got. I still think that the love story should've happened on the side while still advancing the plot, like Empire and Temple of Doom. The female lead is along for the ride. There was absolutely no reason to waste half of AOTC just going to Naboo and riding giant ticks in the grass. That's lousy filmmaking. The dialogue just topped it off as sheer crap.


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So I definitely think the prequels are (from bad to worst):

1. Phantom Menace
2. Revenge of the Sith
3. Attack of the Clones
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I still can't understand why we never got to see Vader helping the Emperor to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. Don't tell me the "younglings" count.


Not only that, I was dissapointed that the Jedi we did see get killed got killed by clones. That was some crap although I really enjoyed the music through those scenes. I also enjoyed the dialogue between Obi and Anakin after their battle. I think that was some of Ewan's best acting out of all three films.
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TPM is probably the best story of the PT, and probably the most faithful to what Lucas wanted to do with the PT, but I think the kiddy tones ruins the movie. Lucas really tried to make a movie for the kiddies, instead of what he did with Star Wars in 1977, make an adult movie for teenagers, and have the kiddies like me jump on the bandwagon.

TPM talks down to the viewer too much, it caters to kids under 10 in too many places, I find it unwatchable at times. But when you get to the meat of the story, it has great scenes smudged in there, and you could see if Lucas focused this movie away from the kiddies, it would be the best of the three.

Jar Jar is everything that is wrong with TPM. It is not just him and his annoyances, but Lucas actually went the route of slapstick humor in a SW movie and that drives me nuts when watching it. Jar Jar was put there just to make people laugh, or try to, and it comes off so bad it actually backfired.

Just take the scene when Anakin first meets Padme in the junkyard, that should be an iconic meeting that you would watch now as this haunting converstaion between the two tragic figures. And what do you get in the backround, Jar Jar doing Three Stooges schtick! He is fumbling and bumbling in the backround knocking everything over in the junkyard, and little Anakin goes, "Hit the nose!" UGGGGGH!

Then the big battle between Gungans/Droids is totally laughable now cause Jar Jar ends up doing comedy in the second half. The whole battle is utterly laughable now and contains no drama whatsoever, and is a symbol of how Lucas forgot that it is the characters and the drama that drive these movies, not the effects and action, they are just icing on the cake.

I guess all the PT movies are bad in their own way. ROTS is just a two hour mess that has to get from point A to point B. AOTC involves a huge subplot of who tried to kill Padme that is dropped in the overall arc of the PT, and makes parts of this movie irrelevant and illogical. TPM is just pure kiddie crap that doesn't hold up well after all these years. If I wanted a kiddie movie George, I would have went to a Rated G movie with my little nephews.

P.S. And I still hate when C-3PO says, "My parts are showing!" Come on George, don't demean 3PO!
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Originally posted by: DorK313
I also enjoyed the dialogue between Obi and Anakin after their battle. I think that was some of Ewan's best acting out of all three films.
I hate that bit. Not because I think it was badly done (I think you're right when you say it was some of the best acating and dialogue of the whole movie) but because it was so forced. I never ever ever bought into Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship, and now all of a sudden when Anakin's lying there with no legs they are 'brothers' and obi-wan 'loved' him? I need to see eveidence of this to believe it, not just a couple of lines of dialogue tagged onto the end of a trilogy.

To all the people who agree with me that TPM is, while horribly flawed, still the best of a bad bunch, get yourself a copy of the Phantom Edit. Less Jar Jar, less overall crap. Still not a great movie, but better.

War does not make one great.

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What disapointed me most about ROTS is not what was in the movie, but what was left out.

#1 - I wanted to see the Younglings murderd. Not because I am a morbid person, but because I wanted to feel something. Anything. I wanted to be heart-wrenched and have my jaw drop at how horrible Anakin had become in murdering children in cold blood. I wanted to hate him, not the actor. I wanted to see the pure dark side that had surrounded him.

#2 - Boba Fett. I was told he was going to be in the movie. I had had enough of Mr. Bo-Jangos and wanted to see Boba back in his OT garb (maybe a little cleaned up since it was 19 years previous). I wanted to see him take those Wookie scalps. Saddly, he overslept and missed the movie.

#3 - More Darth Vader, goddamnit! I wanted to see our masked villing for longer than 2 minutes.

#4 - The redemption and eventual death of Jar Jar. Now, everybody hates that dickweed, but I didn't want to walk away from the PT still hating him. I wanted him to be redeemed. It had been 13 years since his bumbling antics in TPM. You'd think that during that time and spending his life now in the Senate that he would have grown wiser and more mature. I wanted to see him help defend the Jedi. He owes his life to them and that debt was never cancelled. I wanted to see him actually take on a bit of bravery and make up for the FUBAR battle of Naboo. Then after the audiance has accepted his redemption have him killed. Probably shot in the back by a trooper while helping to defend the temple or something. That way some of us have an emotional moment while others are just happy his is dead. It's win-win.

#5 - The true bond Obi-Wan and Anakin had. They were like brothers (so the movie tells me) but they act like they just went to High School together. That's not enough. Obi-Wan loved him? Huh. Must have missed that scene.

#6 - More consistancy. "Obi-Wan once thought as you did." Really? Padme sure did, but Obi-Wan? Hmm...
"That wizard is just a crazy old man." Why the hard feelings Owen? What did he ever do to you?
"I must obey my master." Why? Does he bitch-smack you for not doing his bidding or something? Do you owe him or something?
"I remember my mother. She was very beautiful. Kind, yet sad." That's some infant power right there! All that from 2 seconds? Wow.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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I can see what you mean about it being forced but it's hard to say how Obi Wan could've regarded Anikan in his mind. Of course there is no real film evidence of this relationship.

For Ep2, I suggest the phantom edit as well. I've see a few edits and this was my top fav though I would've removed the "death sticks" scene. God, I hate that guy!
1000 Word Migraine
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Damn Jenny, get violent!
#3 - More Darth Vader, goddamnit! I wanted to see our masked villing for longer than 2 minutes.

There's some cool paintings in this months sw magazine of Vader stabbing people with his light saber. That's the stuff I wanted to see in ROTS. Vader kicking ass, not Hayden.
1000 Word Migraine
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Really? Vader stabbings? Cool. Does anyone have scans of these delicious pages?

Originally posted by: DorK313
Damn Jenny, get violent!


I'm making up for lack of violence in the acclamed "It's so violent it's PG-13!!!" crap fest of a movie.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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I'm making up for lack of violence in the acclamed "It's so violent it's PG-13!!!" crap fest of a movie.

uh.....fair enough.

I'll see if I can't find the pic of vader. He's stabbing down with his lightsaber and the person he's stabbing is holding up his left arm in defense. The saber is going through the persons hand and into him. It's really a cool pic.
1000 Word Migraine
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I guess I'm the only person in the world who actually applauded (not literally, but in my mind) the one piece of consistency that this movie contained: that the suit doesn't make Vader. My biggest concern was that he'd still be going by the name Anakin after he turned to the dark side until Obi-Wan kicked his ass, and that, as fan service or because Lucas forgot his own back story (it generally happens), and have him christened as Darth Vader when he got the suit put on. That was the only thing I was pleased with. When Palpatine christened him with his new name, I was like, "Yes, they actually got something right." But apparently all anybody wants to see is suited Vader kicking ass and still call him Ani until he breathes like a scuba diver.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I also liked that he was named Vader before the suit. I just would have liked to see the man in the suit do some Jedi killing like we've dreamt about seeing for years. Instead we saw him get the suit, scream no, and look at the death star. Boooring.

We've waited all these years to see the the suit on the big screen again and that's all we get. It seems to be a re-occuring theme for Lucas. Make them wait forever for what they want then give them just enough to piss them off.
1000 Word Migraine
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Hello all! I am a long-time lurker but just had to join in on the discussions as of late. This site is GREAT and I am happy there are others out there I can discuss all this with.

Anyway, my story is really no different than all of you: I LOVE the O-OT and have many fond memories of seeing ESB and ROTJ in the theatre, playing with and collecting the toys, etc. (I am 28 yrs old btw). Then when the news came out in the mid-90s that Lucas was going to do the PT I got really scared and worried, as I thought that some of the back-story would not jive with what I had made up in my head to fill in the gaps. Also, I was afraid these new movies would ruin some of the "tone" set in the O-OT, one that simply CANNOT be replicated! Sadly, I was right on the money and the PT (and all the versions of the OT since) have ruined a lot for me.

I disliked EPI, but I never totally hated it and it still had some of the SW feel to me. It wasn't all about CGI sets which helped keep some of the "warmth" of the old movies, Darth Maul was pretty cool and the lightsaber dual was one of the best IMO. I must say that it is ironic to me, though, that as time goes on EPI is starting to be the one I just might like the most?!?!?!?!? [that is if I simply HAD to pick one LOL]

EPII - I left the theatre thinking it was really boring but picked up at the end. I left not liking it but not hating it either...until I got a chance to see it again and again and I became COMPLETELY bored by it and thought it sucked pretty bad. There were so many dumb parts and Lucas wasted a whole chapter of the saga on silly, pointless things. Also, the whole Jango/Boba/Clone Army thing was a TOTAL joke IMO. Lucas missed yet another good opportunity and could've added some really cool Fett battle scenes in the Clone Wars and/or some back-story, complete with the hunting of Wookies (now THIS would've been a good time to add Chewbacca and do a sub-plot about where he came from).

EPIII - Like a few have stated, I left the theatre LOVING it (especially towards the end) but the more I watch it, the more I dislike it. How can you cut the Rebellion scenes?!? How can you add such silly things like Chewbacca and Yoda knowing each other?!? *yawn* These are just a few examples but you catch my drift I am sure. I now rank EPIII like this: good only for the last 45 min. or so. If I HAD to pick a favorite, then maybe, just maybe this movie would be it.

Originally posted by: DorK313
I also liked that he was named Vader before the suit. I just would have liked to see the man in the suit do some Jedi killing like we've dreamt about seeing for years. Instead we saw him get the suit, scream no, and look at the death star. Boooring.

We've waited all these years to see the the suit on the big screen again and that's all we get. It seems to be a re-occuring theme for Lucas. Make them wait forever for what they want then give them just enough to piss them off.

I COMPLETELY agree and this is how I pictured it too. If I were Lucas, this is how I would've done it:

--Anakin turning to Vader and being out of the suit for a bit and then the battle with Obi-wan, then Vader into the suit.
--Vader in the suit, where he fights with and kills Jedi like Mace Windu. Just imagine a battle between these two, where Vader could make comments the whole time about Windu/the Council not granting him the rank of Master when he was "...merely Anakin. Thanks to your foolishness, I have grown more powerful than any Jedi; you don't realize the power of the Dark Side!"
--Vader killing anyone he supects being part of the Rebellion (again, paramount on LEAVING THESE SCENES IN!!!)

I can go on and on. Too bad this wasn't reality.
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It's allmost absurd that Vader, the icon of Star Wars, gets 2 minutes of screentime in the entire PT. 2 minutes. Lucas says that this is the tragic story of Darth Vader and he couldn't make room for Vader in the script? He said that most of TPM and AOTC were filler, so maybe that's why ROTS feels so rushed. It's allmost as if Lucas said prior to ROTS:"Oh crap! I have to actually finish the story and Anakin hasn't even turned evil yet!" He wasted so much time with JarJar, Qui-Gon and Jango and then continued to waste more time in ROTS with the Wookies and Yoda. Everything else was rushed (the turn, the friendship, order 66 etc...)
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Originally posted by: ESHBG
If I were Lucas, this is how I would've done it:

--Anakin turning to Vader and being out of the suit for a bit and then the battle with Obi-wan, then Vader into the suit.
--Vader in the suit, where he fights with and kills Jedi like Mace Windu. Just imagine a battle between these two, where Vader could make comments the whole time about Windu/the Council not granting him the rank of Master when he was "...merely Anakin. Thanks to your foolishness, I have grown more powerful than any Jedi; you don't realize the power of the Dark Side!"
--Vader killing anyone he supects being part of the Rebellion (again, paramount on LEAVING THESE SCENES IN!!!)

I can go on and on. Too bad this wasn't reality.



Wow, that sounds awesome, suited Vader fighting Mace, "merely Anakin" and the killing of Rebellion traitors including Jedi. Sounds like Episode III to me.
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Originally posted by: Tachikoma-Kun
It's allmost absurd that Vader, the icon of Star Wars, gets 2 minutes of screentime in the entire PT. 2 minutes.


He had a lot more than 2 minutes. He was created Darth after defending Palpatine against Mace. Then, as Darth Vader, he proceeded to wipe out the Separatist Council, brood, argue with his wife, fight Obi-Wan, roll around on the ground, get suited up, and contradict Palpatine with a great deal of anger.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Very, very true. And for all you people complaining about not seeing Vader in the suit enough, remember this. Fans complained for years about not using Boba Fett enough. I don't have to finish this story. You know how it ends. Food for thought.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I'm glad they didn't ruin my image of Vader any more than they already have. Seeing a skinny-necked Hayden-in-a-suit Vader would have totally destroyed his menace in the OT. As it stands it's only severely tarnished.

War does not make one great.