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Does George even read his own stuff?

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Okay, first off I'm a noob here so be gentle if this has been mentioned elsewhere.

We all know what 'himself' did with the new trilogy, but did he even watch his old stuff again before writing it?

case in point. On Degobah, Obi Wan says to Yoda quote "that boy is our only hope"

Yoda replies, "no, there is another."

clearly inferring that Obi wan doesn't know about Leia untill that very moment; yet we see Obi wan present at the birth (or shortly after it i forget) in Ep III.

any thoughts, flames etc.


I thought I was unhappy when I had no shoes, 'till I met a man who had no feet.
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That particular point was retarded from the beginning, because Obi Wan is the one who reveals to Luke that Leia is his sister. Obviously the line in ESB was not originally in reference to Leia, but with the elimination of the sequel trilogy in the early 80's, Lucas had to resolve it in ROTJ. So with regards to that point its precisely consistent with ROTJ IMO.
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Well, I don't necessarily agree with that specific example, but I do have my doubts that Lucas even bothered to screen the original movies before writing the prequel scripts.

Overused case in point: Qui Gon Jin

As had been explained to me on another forum, there is a difference between instructing and training. Therefore, when the ghost of Obi Wan refered to Yoda as "the Jedi master who instructed me," everyone watching in the theatre in 1981 thought to themselves "Oh, Yoda only instructed Obi Wan. I wonder who actually trained him."

Yeah right. And my butt occasionally plays that Macarena song.

No one thought that and to show Obi Wan being trained by a Jedi other than Yoda is jarring and contridictory. Worse, it was completely unnecessary. They could have easily just been friends and comrades in arms instead of a master and apprentice in any official capacity.

Lucas was always just making stuff up as he went along, but in the 15 or so years between ROTJ and TPM, he forgot what he was in doing that.
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Lucas is a guy who operates according to his emotions, and though I can usually forgive a lack of continuity from someone who isn't logically oriented . . . the prequels were just absurd. The worst element for me is how he tries to justify his decisions as if each were well planned in advance. What an obvious liar.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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The "there is another" line was Lucas' wiggle room if something happened to Mark Hamill between films, (he already had a nasty car accident) much as Han getting frozen gave everyone an out if Harrison didn't want to come back. The old "Making of a Saga" documentary strongly implies they didn't come up with Leia being Luke's sister until they were on the set of Jedi, trying to come up with something for Vader to say to provoke Luke into fighting him.

Where were you in '77?

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No, no, no. The film cuts too quickly before Obi-Wan can say his next line.

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."
Yoda: "No, there is another."
Obi-Wan: "Yes, but can Leia handle the challenge? Luke's already been trained in the Jedi ways. She's never even been near a lightsaber."
Yoda: "Trust in the force, we must."

If I were in Obi-Wan's position, I'd think the same thing too. I'd put all my money on Luke saving the day. As cool as Leia is, she's much less of a hope than Luke is. Obi-Wan had a special bond with Luke. He's got all his faith riding in him. He doesn't doubt Leia's power in the force, but for her to bring down Vader? Hell no. Not in her condition. Yoda's comment was more like: "No, we have a spare."


EDIT: As I recall Luke did have a twin sister in the original huge ass script that had to be cut down for Star Wars. The line of "There is another" was put in the film to add tension for the audience but I think that Lucas knew where he was going with that (god, I can't believe that I just said that). It wasn't just a line that "sounded cool." There was more coming. Planned or not, the Luke/Leia thing works a little too well to be an accedent. Just like Vader's revelation, the brother/sister one was just as good.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Well, Luke's sister was going to show up in the sequel trilogy, that is episodes VII, VIII, and IX. However, most of what Lucas had for that was crammed into Jedi. Luke was supposed to have a twin sister, it just wasn't always supposed to be Leia. So basically, like zombie said.
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After producers changed from ESB to ROTJ alot of stuff was changed in ROTJ. Including this.


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Exactly. ROTJ is episodes 7-9. They had to cram everything in there to get it done, and Leia just magically became his sister. I think it works brilliantly. Hell, even the names resonate with what twins often are stuck with.

Brian/Bradly
Megan/Molly
Jenny/Jason
Ruth/Robin
Luke/Leia

Plus, the idea that the two of them were separated at birth and yet spend the next 3 movies together is wonderful. Intentional or not, I wouldn't have it any other way.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Despite the fact that it was made up, it does seem to fit. It explains Leia's resistance to the mind control in ANH (originally, she was trained in the art of mind control) and why she heard Luke's call at the end of ESB.
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She may have been trained in the art of mind control, but her power of the force helped out a bit.

And even though Vader said "The force is strong with this one" when refering to Luke, there's nothing that says he didn't feel the same way about Leia. Luke had also been training and basically turned his force switch to "on." Leia on the other hand, never got that far. Vader couldn't even sense her family relation until he felt it off of Luke.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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You want an OT contradiction that can make your head hurt if you think too much about it? Return of the Jedi, as with ESB, Vader's entire motivation is to get Luke to turn to the dark side. He has selfish reasons for this, as he reveals in Empire.

The climax of Jedi is the Emperor working his magic to win Luke over the dark side with Vader cheering from the sidelines. When Luke finally gives into his anger and hate, takes up his saber and tries to kill the Emperor, something Vader tried talking him into in ESB...Vader stops him from doing so! That would have been it. Vader's two wishes would have been granted...Luke turns to the dark side AND kills the Emperor. Bonus!

But since Lucas couldn't come up with a better plot device and is a hack writer, he couldn't be bothered thinking something else up. Instead, we have this duel (and it is all about the action) where Vader keeps goading Luke, and tempting him to the dark side. He was just there! He gave into the dark side! He acted out of rage and hate against the Emperor, who Vader had no reason to protect as he had already invited Luke to join him and destroy the Emperor. Nothing about the throne room scenes makes any logical sense up until Palpy begins killing Luke.
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I do wonder if Lucas watched the OT before making the PT. It seems highly unlikely, as the PT opens up so many plot holes. Why does George feel that the PT is the definitive story, and that if any plot holes open, its the OT's fault? The NEW movies open a Plot Hole, he goes back and redoes the OLD ones. Why couldn't he have just thought it through and made no plot holes?
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Originally posted by: JediFlyer06
You want an OT contradiction that can make your head hurt if you think too much about it? Return of the Jedi, as with ESB, Vader's entire motivation is to get Luke to turn to the dark side. He has selfish reasons for this, as he reveals in Empire.

The climax of Jedi is the Emperor working his magic to win Luke over the dark side with Vader cheering from the sidelines. When Luke finally gives into his anger and hate, takes up his saber and tries to kill the Emperor, something Vader tried talking him into in ESB...Vader stops him from doing so! That would have been it. Vader's two wishes would have been granted...Luke turns to the dark side AND kills the Emperor. Bonus!

But since Lucas couldn't come up with a better plot device and is a hack writer, he couldn't be bothered thinking something else up. Instead, we have this duel (and it is all about the action) where Vader keeps goading Luke, and tempting him to the dark side. He was just there! He gave into the dark side! He acted out of rage and hate against the Emperor, who Vader had no reason to protect as he had already invited Luke to join him and destroy the Emperor. Nothing about the throne room scenes makes any logical sense up until Palpy begins killing Luke.


That... is genius. You're absolutely right. I've often wondered why Vader was so happy and complacent to hear the Emperor say things like, "Take your father's place at my side!" and crap like that. It also made me wonder why Dooku didn't say anything when Palpatine said, "Kill him!" It's like Sith apprentices are just pussies (pardon me) who never stand up for themselves even when their master is about to throw them away! But I never thought of it from that angle before. Why the hell did Vader save the Emperor? It makes no sense! I wonder if I'll ever look at the movie the same way again...?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Maybe because deep down Vader didn't want Luke to follow the same path as he did.
"Once you flow down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wans apprentice" - Yoda

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Originally posted by: JediFlyer06
You want an OT contradiction that can make your head hurt if you think too much about it? Return of the Jedi, as with ESB, Vader's entire motivation is to get Luke to turn to the dark side. He has selfish reasons for this, as he reveals in Empire.

The climax of Jedi is the Emperor working his magic to win Luke over the dark side with Vader cheering from the sidelines. When Luke finally gives into his anger and hate, takes up his saber and tries to kill the Emperor, something Vader tried talking him into in ESB...Vader stops him from doing so! That would have been it. Vader's two wishes would have been granted...Luke turns to the dark side AND kills the Emperor. Bonus!

But since Lucas couldn't come up with a better plot device and is a hack writer, he couldn't be bothered thinking something else up. Instead, we have this duel (and it is all about the action) where Vader keeps goading Luke, and tempting him to the dark side. He was just there! He gave into the dark side! He acted out of rage and hate against the Emperor, who Vader had no reason to protect as he had already invited Luke to join him and destroy the Emperor. Nothing about the throne room scenes makes any logical sense up until Palpy begins killing Luke.


Quite incorrect. Darth Vader fully intended to bring Luke before the emperor in ESB. He was using that line primarily as a way to provoke Luke's selfish ambition and perhaps persuade him to surrender. Even ignoring that clear element though, maybe Darth Vader would have liked to overthrow the emperor in some way, but that would have had to have been on his own terms, and by the time Luke finally surrendered in Jedi, it was fully on the emperor's terms. I see no contradiction.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: HotRod
Maybe because deep down Vader didn't want Luke to follow the same path as he did.
"Once you flow down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wans apprentice" - Yoda


I was about to say the same thing.
"There is good in you. I can feel it." - Luke
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I don't know. The way I always saw it was that he was torn between loyalty to his master, loyalty to his son, and loyalty to his ambition. It kinda threw me for a loop when I heard George say that Vader's sole ambition was to overthrow Palpatine, and that he was just using Luke to accomplish it.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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JediFlyer06's point is a good one. However, I think it's reasonable to explain Vader's words to Luke as a ploy - after all, we'd already seen him agreeing with the Emperor's hologram to recruit Luke.
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I just read this thread and cringed- all the loopholes, etc of the OT that came up in ROTJ I had dreamed that someday would be actually *explained* by a clever trilogy of films written by competent writers. Sigh. Then we got Qui-gon and Jar-Jar. And Hayden. And Dooku and poodoo etc, etc, etc...
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I got this quote off of the website nohandluke suggested, and this quote by Kershner is the best description of the PT I have ever heard.

"The thing that you learn in directing is that no matter how complex the shooting, you have to remain sensitive to the people around you or the machine will ultimately take over. If you don't keep in mind the essential humanity of it all, technique will dominate. Then, suddenly, all you've got are technically fine shots, technically fine performances, a story being told but with something lacking, something that is mysterious and indefinable. What is really lacking is someone guiding the mechanism, the ghost in the machine."


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Originally posted by: THX
JediFlyer06's point is a good one. However, I think it's reasonable to explain Vader's words to Luke as a ploy - after all, we'd already seen him agreeing with the Emperor's hologram to recruit Luke.



Yeah, but whose idea was it to turn Luker? Vaders! The Emperor agrees with Vader, though mostly to placate him. The Emperor wanted him dead..."the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi". Vader knows who Luke is and knows that his power, together with that of his son, can destroy the emperor and give him what he thinks he wants, power. He's a sith, that's all they care about. Ignore the friggin' prequels, the story of the OT was written long before, and has so little to do with the PT that it makes one sick. Vader wants power. Period. Luke is his secret weapon against the emperor, which is why he puts the idea of turning Luke on the table. They're Sith. They know the rule of two. From that moment on, each wants Luke for his own purposes. Vader wants him to help him destroy the Emperor. The Emperor wants him to destroy Vader and become a true, and complete (physically) Sith with power greater than even Vader.