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Brilliant Article about 'white guilt' — Page 2

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Originally posted by: Nanner Split
There are too many people who believe more government interference and shared destitution are the answer. We'll be almost 100% socialist by the time I retire in 30 years.


Socialism is good if you don't want to get ahead in life.


Socialism is the best system, theorically. Unfortunally, people are greedy assholes who won't let it work.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Socialism is not a good system. Without incentive for working, nobody will ever do anything exceptionally. It encourages mediocrity; even if human nature didn't make it unviable, it still would never be as good as a free market system.

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
Originally posted by: Nanner Split
There are too many people who believe more government interference and shared destitution are the answer. We'll be almost 100% socialist by the time I retire in 30 years.


Socialism is good if you don't want to get ahead in life.


Socialism is the best system, theorically. Unfortunally, people are greedy assholes who won't let it work.


Too bad communism didn't work out.
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
Originally posted by: JediSage
There are too many people who believe more government interference and shared destitution are the answer. We'll be almost 100% socialist by the time I retire in 30 years.


Now that would be something, eh? Nah, if America ever adopts a socialist regime, it'll launch it's interbalistic nuclear missles on itself.


I had a friend who came here from Moldavia in the old Soviet BLOC. He told me that we already are socialist and we just don't realize it. His favorite phrase "I've got news for you...they take money away from you and give to someone else: That's socialism".

Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
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Originally posted by: The Maker
Why is it that we humans insist on having black-and-white answers to all problems when we know (we KNOW) that almost everything lies somewhere in the grey areas? The truth is, most people are neither far right nor far left. We are somewhere in the middle, and I think a great many of us can agree that both sides have some valid points. For example, most people do not think that stepping on the back of another is person is the morally right way to gain success - but, most people do not think that you should give every beggar you see a dollar, until you are a beggar yourself.

Unfortunately, the extremists amongst us have always been the loudest voices; and, these days, they seem to be all we can hear. It freaks me out that stating any viewpoint not totally in line with that of the current government’s immediately gets one labeled as a “right wing nut.” And vice-versa, that if you agree with anything they do, you are “one of them.” When did politics become so polar? If we look at our American history, we find that this total split, (especially now, when you’re either a tree-hugging, industry-hating, new-age, loopy right wing hippie or a baby seal-killing, peoples-oppressing, money-grubbing conservative) has only been within the past, say 100-150 years or so? Our country was founded upon many political parties, some of which were around for one election, some for decades, but enough to represent all of the glorious views and opinions of its people.

For myself, I hesitate to call myself anything but “independent,” because (as usual) both sides of this story have many facts wrong, many opinions with which I disagree, and many with which I do agree. I like some of both side’s methods, and I hate some of both. The one thing that I will say, just my opinion, is that there is a storm brewing in this country. Any one who does not agree need only study their revolutionary history (from any country.) The divide between those who have and those who do not is getting a lot wider and it seems like a whole lot of us are falling into the chasm. But I love my country, and I think that one of the beautiful things about America is its ability to change. I hope that we are able to put aside our polarity in politics and find some real solutions to the problems that we as a society are facing soon, because I don’t even want to think about what this country is going to be like in 20 years if we do not.


I agree with pretty much everything you're saying except that everytime you say "right wing" you actually mean "left wing".
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Yes, that was well thought out. I don't think I've ever seen a case of political dyslexia before, thouhg.

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I'M NOT TRYING TO BE AN @$$HOLE TO HERE, BUT THE YOUTH OF TODAY NEED TO REALIZE THAT THEY KNOW NOTHING THOUGH THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY KNOW IT ALL.


No offense taken. In fact, I couldn't agree more. I've noticed that a lot of the people of my generation (I'm 17) are WAY too damn smug/arrogant/opinionated.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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Originally posted by: sean wookieToo bad communism didn't work out.


Communism & Socialism are two different things

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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Originally posted by: Rikter
Originally posted by: sean wookieToo bad communism didn't work out.


Communism & Socialism are two different things


Oh, oh, my favorite one is when people say that Nazis were comunists, because Nazism meant National Socialism... Oh, by the way, the German National Democratic Party is still going on...
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Communism is the polticical system that makes enforcing the economic system socialism the most efficient.

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I love it when people say that Communism/Socialism really would work if the "right" people were in charge....

Or when they try to pin the failure of Soviet Communism on 75 years of bad weather.
Nemo me impune lacessit

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Socialism is the best system


Oh, oh, my favorite one is when people say that Nazis were comunists, because Nazism meant National Socialism


Yep, you're right. Socialism is TOTALLY the best system.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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That view is a bit out there to say the least.

Socialism may be 'fair', but it is not right. Rightness is different than fairness, which I would define as everyone being equal. If everyone is equal economically [except the leaders, of course!] then there is no incentive to do anything. Why should any person do their best when someone else who is slacking off is just as well off as them?

It doesn't matter who runs it; socialism is inherently flawed in that it punishes creativity and hard work and rewards laziness.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
That view is a bit out there to say the least.

Socialism may be 'fair', but it is not right. Rightness is different than fairness, which I would define as everyone being equal. If everyone is equal economically [except the leaders, of course!] then there is no incentive to do anything. Why should any person do their best when someone else who is slacking off is just as well off as them?

It doesn't matter who runs it; socialism is inherently flawed in that it punishes creativity and hard work and rewards laziness.




Darth Chaltab -

You should REALLY take a few poly sci classes and get a clue as to what the hell your talking about because you sound like an idiot

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
That view is a bit out there to say the least.

Socialism may be 'fair', but it is not right. Rightness is different than fairness, which I would define as everyone being equal. If everyone is equal economically [except the leaders, of course!] then there is no incentive to do anything. Why should any person do their best when someone else who is slacking off is just as well off as them?

It doesn't matter who runs it; socialism is inherently flawed in that it punishes creativity and hard work and rewards laziness.


I belive my favorite definition of socialism comes from an episode of The Simpsons, in which a teacher - I belive it was a ballet teacher or something, I've seen this episode only once - says to the class, answering Lisa's comment about something:

"Class, what do we call giving equal rights to different people?"

And the whole class of girls: "Socialism!"
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: Rikter
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
That view is a bit out there to say the least.

Socialism may be 'fair', but it is not right. Rightness is different than fairness, which I would define as everyone being equal. If everyone is equal economically [except the leaders, of course!] then there is no incentive to do anything. Why should any person do their best when someone else who is slacking off is just as well off as them?

It doesn't matter who runs it; socialism is inherently flawed in that it punishes creativity and hard work and rewards laziness.



Darth Chaltab -

You should REALLY take a few poly sci classes and get a clue as to what the hell your talking about because you sound like an idiot

Ha, ha. Funny. Are you actually defending socialism? And, sorry, but political science isn't offered at my school. I could perhaps try to find one next year, but I've heard many a horror story about Pol-Sci classes that are nothing but proffessors bashing the capitialist system, so I'm hesitant.

But no, I really don't sound like an idiot. Because I'm right, and I'm certainly not the only one who has said what I just said.

Socialism as defined on dictionary.com: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.


In other words, not a free market. Government control of the economy. These are BAD things. The government has proven time and time again that it has no idea how to spend the money of the individual. That should be up to the person who makes it.

From Wikipedia:A primary concern of socialism (and, according to some, its defining feature) is social equality and an equitable distribution of wealth that would serve the interests of society as a whole.


Equitable distrubution of wealth. Right. How exactly is that good or healthy for anyone? Wealth is not something to be distributed. It is created, it is earned. It's not a pie that can be consumed. You don't tax a nation into prosperity, and you can't expect redistrubution of wealth to do anything but create dependency and discourage self-sufficiency.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab

Equitable distrubution of wealth. Right. How exactly is that good or healthy for anyone?


Ask poor people out there. Yes, that 80% of the world.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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I find it amusingly typical that a sheltered white boy who's parents are still paying his way in the world is the one pointing out articles detailing how the reason the Middle East Occupation is going poorly is because we're crippled by "white guilt", and at the same time telling the adults who are having to live through the hell of supporting themselves and their family all about how the world really works.

Run along now, young one… the adults are talking.

(I’m patting myself on the back now because I didn’t launch into my political views. It wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be…)
For as much as some people claim to hate what Star Wars has become, they sure seem incapable of shutting up about it.
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab

Equitable distrubution of wealth. Right. How exactly is that good or healthy for anyone?

Ask poor people out there. Yes, that 80% of the world.

Ric, if you were poor would you really want the government handing you a paycheck of money someone else earned and payed in taxes? I seriously doubt it.

The problem of poverty WILL NOT be solved by taxing the rich for the benefit of the poor. To help the poor, the only ethical way is to help them GAIN THE MEANS to overcome their poverty: education*, job creation, economic independence.

You know the analogy, cliche as it is, that you can catch a man a fish and feed him for a day, but teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. It's the same principle that the socialist agenda crowd completely ignores.

Originally posted by: Rebel Rouser
I find it amusingly typical that a sheltered white boy who's parents are still paying his way in the world is the one pointing out articles detailing how the reason the Middle East Occupation is going poorly is because we're crippled by "white guilt"


Excuse me. "Sheltered White Boy"? What the blazes does my age or race have to do with this article? The man who wrote it, Shelby Steele, is, *gasp* a black man. He's not some white guy whining about how evil minorities are persecuting us. And his argument makes sense. You may not see it, but it does. If the US used the full force of it's military power in Iraq, it would be accused of imperialism and racism against Arabs. Try and be hard on boarder security and you're said to be bigoted against Mexicans. Did you even bother reading the article or did you just discredit it based on my age, race or political views?

Because really, that is far more 'ammusingly typical' than anything I said.


and at the same time telling the adults who are having to live through the hell of supporting themselves and their family all about how the world really works.


Excuse me. I may be younger than most of you but I'm not stupid. I know that making your way in the world can be difficult, and I can understand how appealing a government paycheck could seem. But fostering dependency isn't the answer.

Run along now, young one… the adults are talking.


I'll let them talk when they stop gushing about how great socialism is or 'would be with the rigth people'... And please, Rebel. Quit patronizing me. You're making yourself look like a jerk, not making me look bad.



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Your age has little to do with the article and everything to do with you spouting off about how the world works for those of us who are actually a part of this great capitalist machine you seem to love so much. The article was... meh.

And I never said, "a government paycheck would be nice". But while we're on the subject, you seem to base all your anti-socialist views on the idea of "earning it".

Has it ever occurred to you that the vast majority of the world's wealth is held by a few individuals who never actually earned it? Inherited wealth for one, and the fact that mister CEO sitting up there with his pen ready to fire another hundred employees/close another factory/send jobs overseas in the interests of earning another few million isn't doing NEARLY as much "earning" as someone like my dad who's busted his ass his whole life working construction to feed his family. Are you seriously going to tell me that Mr. CEO has worked harder and went through more life struggles then my father? So don't give me that "earn it" bullshit unless I see Paris Hilton flipping burgers tomorrow.

You also seem to think that nobody will do anything above and beyond what is necessary without some sort of monetary gain… which is also bullshit. Just tell that crap to all the folks in the Preservation Forums, cranking out those DVD transfers for us with self taught techniques. (For someone who espouses the virtues of Christianity, you certainly seem to place a lot of your faith in little green slips of paper.) Someday I might sit down and post the basic math that proves that capitalism, at least in it’s current form, can’t work indefinitely, (anyone remember when candy bars cost a nickel?), but not today.

And if I'm coming off as a jerk, it's because I’m directing it toward you personally. There's little I can do to make you look bad, as you're already doing that yourself.

*** Apologies to most everyone else on this board.. I know I’m coming off as a bit heated, but I’ve heard too many of these Michael P. Keaton rants against people like Rik who are actually having to make real sacrifices to do the right things in life. ***
For as much as some people claim to hate what Star Wars has become, they sure seem incapable of shutting up about it.
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Everyone has the ability to make money. Depending on how much effort they put into it and how much "skill" they possess, the more or less they will make.

And now it's my turn to become heated. Rebel Rouser, you have no right to categorize Darth Chaltab because of his age and alleged 'arrogance'. My next-door neighbor is 23, a multi-millionaire, and I know for a fact that he did not inherit one penny of it.

Your obviously taking the position of judge and jury in this discussion so don't try to defend your "coming off as a jerk".
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Thanks, Jag. *gives him a Fudge Pop*

Originally posted by: Rebel Rouser
Your age has little to do with the article and everything to do with you spouting off about how the world works for those of us who are actually a part of this great capitalist machine you seem to love so much. The article was... meh.

Maybe it was 'meh' because you are predisposed to disagree with it for whatever reason. I only pointed it out; I didn't write it, though I've felt the same way for a while and have been unable to put words to it.

And I never said, "a government paycheck would be nice". But while we're on the subject, you seem to base all your anti-socialist views on the idea of "earning it".

I base my anti-socialist views on the facts that 1) pure Socialism has been proven unworkable many times, 2) it tends to spread poverty, not affluence.

Has it ever occurred to you that the vast majority of the world's wealth is held by a few individuals who never actually earned it? Inherited wealth for one...

SOMBODY earned it. Inherited wealth had to come from somewhere. And this stereotype is clearly not aplicable to everyone. Everheard of Bill Gates? What about Mike Jackson (president of EcoQuest, not the singer)?

...and the fact that mister CEO sitting up there with his pen ready to fire another hundred employees/close another factory/send jobs overseas in the interests of earning another few million isn't doing NEARLY as much "earning" as someone like my dad who's busted his ass his whole life working construction to feed his family.

I'm aware of that, and from the sounds of it, your dad is one of the good guys. Not everyone in every job is going to be wealthy, but that is by no means an excuse to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. And I'm sure in the long run your father is a better and happier man than any greedy CEO like the one you described.

Are you seriously going to tell me that Mr. CEO has worked harder and went through more life struggles then my father? So don't give me that "earn it" bullshit unless I see Paris Hilton flipping burgers tomorrow.

Of course not. But I seriously doubt whoever started the company had it easy like Paris Hilton. Besides, Paris Hilton is a stupid twit and everyone knows it. But her grandfather DID earn the money to begin with.

You also seem to think that nobody will do anything above and beyond what is necessary without some sort of monetary gain… which is also bullshit.


I never said that at all. But persistent, life-long work is rarely done without a reward. You can't support yourself on doing things for nothing, and the 'good of mankind' or 'the state'.

Just tell that crap to all the folks in the Preservation Forums, cranking out those DVD transfers for us with self taught techniques. (For someone who espouses the virtues of Christianity, you certainly seem to place a lot of your faith in little green slips of paper.)


Yeah, because the preservation of classic films is essential for human life. You are completley misconstruing my point. If everyone is equal, the lazy people will expect a free ride from those who would work. Those who do work are being shortchanged, and eventually become discontent. The more difficult virtues of Christianity aren't exactly popular among the populace.

My faith is not in the money. I simply have NO faith in the virtues of socialsim. Again and again it has been shown that it DOES NOT WORK. It requires totalitariansim to be inforced, and even then, it stifles creativity and makes the leaders rich fatcats while everyone else lives in squalor. Look at the socialist communes of early America. Look at the Soviet Union.


Someday I might sit down and post the basic math that proves that capitalism, at least in it’s current form, can’t work indefinitely, but not today.


But not today. Not anyday, because it is bunk. The only problem with capitalism in its current form is that government regulations go beyond what is neccesary to levels unheard of back in the days when candy bars cost a nickel.

And if I'm coming off as a jerk, it's because I’m directing it toward you personally. There's little I can do to make you look bad, as you're already doing that yourself.


You aren't making me look bad. You were makihg yourself look bad for patronizing and discrediting me based on my age. You think my own parents haven't gone through struggles? There were years where my mom had to rely on my grandparents for food money. And no, I've not had personal experience in such hardships, but I'm sure I will soon enough.

Apologies to most everyone else on this board.. I know I’m coming off as a bit heated, but I’ve heard too many of these Michael P. Keaton rants against people like Rik who are actually having to make real sacrifices to do the right things in life.


'Cause clearly, you must apologize. You're the bigger man here. Right.

And Rik is my friend. You, on the other hand, are not. Rouser, I'm not ranting against Rik at all. I just disagreed with his assertion that Socialism could ever be a good system, and gave reasons why I think this way. Nobody was insulting anybody until you started.

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Well I'm not sure whether to say you're welcome or to flip you off.....but just in case:


You're welcome buddy!
http://www.gdnctr.com/middle_finger.jpg

*eats the fudge pop*


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Are middle fingers allowed here? I forgot to ask...
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