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The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released) — Page 31

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Another thing... I just realized it wouldn't be a good idea to hand out copies of your rough cut when you're getting the final recobbled cut ready.

I'm thinking that there could be a notification given to people when your final version hits Myspleen and they can download it. Either that or I can set up a page on my website that links to this thread. What do you think?
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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No, hand out copies of the rough cut. Please.
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Ok, I'll hand them out anyway.

The music after the VW is from Charlie Chaplin's score for City Lights. The last 1/3 is Scheherazade, but I'm not on that yet.
It's basically starting off as epic... showing the comedy, then back to epic again.

EDIT: wrong file... here's what I got so far: http://ctufilms.googlepages.com/thieftrailer50sec.avi

"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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There's a bad cut after "Seize him" - three frames of Tack. The transition to the comedy music is too abrupt. Should be a soft dissolve. Maybe introduce all the characters before going into the comedy. Maybe include the "outward and visible dream" narration over your beginning on the mountains. There's too much of the Thief going after the balls - you don't want to use a lot of similar shots.
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To Studio Toledo:

That film fest I mentioned earlier is tomorrow. The screenings begin at 3pm in the Gish Theater in Hanna Hall, here on the BGSU campus. My movie, LiveStock screens around 9:45. Come down and check it out!

I used to be very active on this forum. I’m not really anymore. Sometimes, people still want to get in touch with me about something, and that is great! If that describes you, please email me at [my username]ATgmailDOTcom.

Hi everybody. You’re all awesome. Keep up the good work.

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I've just gone in, frame by frame, and entirely reanimated a 3-second shot.

It's a shot from Calvert's cut, a wide shot of the Nurse, Yumyum and Tack. In Calvert's version, the Nurse is insulting Tack for no reason right after he's fixed her glasses. I needed this shot to show the Nurse walking out of the room.

So I reanimated the Nurse's face to have a calm expression as she walks away. I used three frames from a closeup of her with her glasses (a Williams shot sticking out like a sore thumb in this Calvert mess), and just cycled them. I also fixed some of Calvert's shooting errors - frames of Yumyum misplaced suddenly on the pegs, bits of dust ...

I could have only used part of this shot, but decided to reanimate the whole shot, because at the end of it, Yumyum starts talking, and her lips match up perfectly, timingwise, with her saying "Cobbler?" It worked quite well.

(EDIT: Looks like I reanimated more of it than I needed to, too - I've cut out a bit of it for the timing of the edit.)

A lot of work, but I think it's worth it - this is EXACTLY how I wanted to edit the scene, and now I can. It's much much more Williams-y now.

This replaces another shot I had reanimated for the rough cut, a closeup of Yumyum saying "Cobbler?"

I've reanimated/altered most of the shots in this scene now ... it's unrecognizable from what it was. I'm quite proud.
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Could you post some before and after screenshots of what you're doing? It'd be kinda nice to be able to see the differences, and also help us visualize what it is you're doing.
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http://orangecow.org/thief/nameistackgrab2.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/nameistackgrab1.jpg

Which one looks more like Tack? =) Mouth on Tack - Entire shot reanimated and retimed. It changes the whole personality of the shot - he doesn't look forcibly happy and really looks like Tack, with the subtle personality that that entails.

http://orangecow.org/thief/nannywalksgrab2.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/nannywalksgrab1.jpg

Which one looks more like Nanny? Face on Nanny - Entire shot reanimated.

http://orangecow.org/thief/grabpipe.jpg

Here's an invented shot. Tack from another scene is placed on an entirely new background. Outside the window, a shaking, jangling pipe is animated by manipulating and stretching a single drawing of a pipe carefully. This replaces a storyboard of the same thing (which was unnecessarily confusing in the edit), and works really well.

http://orangecow.org/thief/grabwilliamsanim.jpg

Logo forms out of smoke. Taken from Williams' own handwriting circa 1966.

http://orangecow.org/thief/grabwilliamsfilm.jpg

Also taken from Williams' own handwriting, circa 1980s.

http://orangecow.org/thief/grabonce.jpg

Once ...

http://orangecow.org/thief/grabtacksleeps.jpg

Tack sleeps. Pencil test placed carefully on a background. A very very complicated process involving dozens of steps, which was done frame by frame in Photoshop, using a record/replay action batch convert tool.

http://orangecow.org/thief/grabhands1.jpg

This sketch of Yumyum's hands (and some birds flying by) from the storyboards now moves, over a moving background, to give the impression that the camera is spinning around 360 degrees as Williams intended. What was once a confusing storyboard is now very clear and entertaining.

http://orangecow.org/thief/grabflowers.jpg

A black and white pencil test of the window turns into color to lead into a color closeup of Yumyum. This is halfway between the two. Again, this makes an edit that was confusing before work amazingly well.

That's my goal - to make the edit clear, so that people can just watch the film without being confused by a weird or awkward jump to storyboard or whatever ...

Gonna be a good one ...!
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For the rough cut, I reversed and repeated footage of Yumyum for her to say "Tack? Is that your name?"

It bugs me that it's so obvious, considering how spot-on the scene is now.

I've gone ahead and reanimated a couple of elements on her face (one earring and the mouth) as the footage repeats, to make it look a lot more natural. It still looks a bit repeated, I'd have to REALLY go in and rework that bit for it to be perfect.

I could ... but I probably won't. It's fine.
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Oh my god. That's amazing. I never imagined that the final edit would entail so much work beyond what you've done. The only thing I see that is an issue is the edit of the Nanny scene. The border between the new face and her cloak is really sharp, which is in contrast with the soft borders on everything else in the shot. Is that apparent in the scene, or is that a bi-product of the scene being screencapped?

But really, beautiful work. The scene with the flower sketches over the background looks amazing. What is the background from?

So, what is there left to do? Are you still contemplating other over-involved, completely deranged restorations of certain scenes?
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Glad you dig!



The continuity on Tack's hand went to junk in three shots ...

So I've reanimated Tack's right hand in three shots.


>> The border between the new face and her cloak is really sharp, which is in contrast with the soft borders on everything else in the shot. Is that apparent in the scene, or is that a bi-product of the scene being screencapped?

Yeah, it is too sharp. Oh well. Not gonna redo it!

>>But really, beautiful work. The scene with the flower sketches over the background looks amazing. What is the background from?

Screengrab from "She is More" ... kind of an inside joke. Very inside. =) Since this scene replaces that song.

>> So, what is there left to do? Are you still contemplating other over-involved, completely deranged restorations of certain scenes?

We'll see ...

There is a lot left to do.

I haven't touched the audio yet for example.

Or part 2.


I have an idea for a shot involving a mouse, but Calvert's version of this shot is so badly animated that I'm not sure it's worth it.




I've added a zoom-out to the first shot, duplicating what Williams wanted. Painted out some film errors in one shot. Oh, almost every shot is changed in some way. What an insane scene.

I think it really works now ...
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Heck with it, here's a video clip of the "Getting to know you" sequences (plus the Thief in the pipes, the king and the maiden, and Yumyum and Meemee in the bath).

http://rapidshare.de/files/18629875/gettingtoknowsm.mov.html

I put some crazy work reanimating this material. Enjoy.

Note that the bath scene has some extra material now ...

I'll stress that this isn't the final audio. This is the old audio. I haven't started work on the audio yet.



I'll post the Calvert version so you can compare directly.

http://rapidshare.de/files/18630478/gettingtoknowcalvertsm.mov.html
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Originally posted by: ocpmovie
Yeah, it is too sharp. Oh well. Not gonna redo it!


Famous last words.
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As one of the people that's really excited about this that has never seen it, I've been very confused on a lot of the things you've said (in terms of subtle manipulations of characters and their evolution and stuff). I still pretty much have no fucking idea what the movie's about. But after watching just those two clips, jeez, man, the Calvert cut makes me hurt. Bad.

I used to be very active on this forum. I’m not really anymore. Sometimes, people still want to get in touch with me about something, and that is great! If that describes you, please email me at [my username]ATgmailDOTcom.

Hi everybody. You’re all awesome. Keep up the good work.

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That's actually the better of the two ruined cuts. (That's Princess and the Cobbler you're hearing.)


The ruined cuts are .... let me use Star Wars terminology here ... it's like they took Star Wars, and recut it so it became The Star Wars Holiday Special.

Maybe you should grab the rough cut to avoid further confusion. =)

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WOW. Everything is pretty much seamless (probably would be perfect if it wasn't for the worn Miramax print). I'm really amazed by how the workprint matches so well.

Have you considered doing a still-frame background for the pan from Tack to the Thief like you did for parts of the witch shots? It seems like there's enough to work from, but I wonder if the wide-angle distortion would make it worse.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Eh ... I did that with the Witch shots because I had the witch in DVD quality (pan & scan) ... Tack and The Thief here are workprint quality, so putting them on a clean background wouldn't be as good ... also we'd lose the distortion.


In this cut I'm trying to avoid really showing what I'm doing - I'd like it to be sort of invisible. If it looks choppy and cobbled together it takes people out of the movie. For example - there's a shot of The Thief climbing down a tree in the polo game (which we now have the pencils from by Ken Harris) ... in the rough cut I spent years on this shot, pasting the clear version of it from the Calvert credits over it, painting out the credits ...

Problem is, no matter how much time you spend doing that, the Calvert credits are still running at a different frame rate (the workprint frames being smudged together), with a big dark patch in the lower right corner.

So no matter how much work I put into it, it never looked clean, it just looked like I'd spent a lot of time doing something that didn't come off.


So I said screw it to all the work I'd done and just ran the workprint version, which looks fine.

So ... eh.
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Here's a Youtube version of the first five minutes of the film. Opening narration, and the Thief meeting Nanny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2czfar4Zg4

Might be nice for those who haven't seen it (or if you're REALLY curious how the credits look now). I'm uploading the rest of part 1 of the film now.
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Really nice work! I hate to say it, but the new music was a little jarring - because I've gotten use to the Folk score (at least I haven't gotten used to the actual mangled version in whole). It's a lot better than using The Pink Panther with notes re-arranged. Can't wait to see the rest.

One idea... maybe the opening credits would have only had main animation/production credits? On Raggedy Ann, it was like this, but I don't know if this was an idea Williams had. It does seem kind of weird to have voice actor credits in the opening since they were usually put after the film. It probably doesn't matter much since you have to re-use the "Princess" end credits anyways.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Yeah, animated movies never have voice actor credits up front unless they're cheap celebrityfests in the Shrek mold.

I was running out of big animation-related things to put up there tho' - I was one step away from crediting animators Neil Boyle and Tim Watts, and when you do that you have to credit EVERYONE I think.

I guess I wanted to show off that I actually knew the names of the actors. =) That information hasn't been in a cut before.



At any rate, I'm probably too lazy to do another version ... unless I have to correct something!




And clearly I'm still using The Thief theme to introduce the character .... and I'm GLAD I tells ya! GLAD!!!
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Lovely stuff.

Og, I don't know if you've already catalogued this for your presentation, but the castle gate is a reference to Douglas Fairbanks' Thief of Bagdad.
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I was just thinking about this - but, in the adding of all of this new music and such, what makes us any different than Calvert, adding HIS music? And actors, etc. No offence, but I think the original music... really worked just fine. It really didn't need anything else.
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Cos Calvert took stuff away.



I'm keeping everything Williams did in. Anything I'm adding is intended to make the film feel more "complete" and not a rough workprint. It is a thin line, but I'm trying to be as faithful as I can.

The goal is to make the film easier to watch than the workprint, with cleaner picture quality, more finished material, more music.



Still, thin line.


It is necessary to add music in order to benefit from the clear sound and sound effects of the Princess and the Cobbler soundtrack. I knew I'd have to use some of the Princess soundtrack to cover places in the workprint where sound was missing (like about 20 minutes in the middle of every copy I've ever seen), and to use the clearer voice tracks for Price, Davies, etc.

This required me to add some music to cover the transitions to the Princess soundtrack.

I really have no choice in the matter, but I do feel that adding more music improves the unfinished film. It's clear enough that the film needs more music - some scenes go on for a long time in silence without it, and would always have had more music in the finished film.