logo Sign In

MSN's "Do nice guys always finish last?"

Author
Time
Do nice guys really finish last?
By Matt Schneiderman

It’s every single guy’s nightmare: He’s on a date with a woman he digs and he’s doing everything right, from asking “all about her” to paying the check before she’s even returned from the restroom. He calls her promptly the next day for date number two... only to hear her confess that she’s obsessed with some guy, despite his flaws—like never paying for dinner or returning her calls. Indeed, it’s enough to convince any sincere, sweet guy that he can’t win at love... and wonder why, in this day and age, women still fall for that bad-boy shtick? What is it about them that turns women on—and how can a decent guy gain an edge? We asked a couple of experts and three women with bad boys in their past to unravel the mystery.


Search for Singles
I am a
Seeking
Between
and



located miles of
Photos only


Whose relationship history includes...


Whose faith is...





Custom search

The panelists:

* Sherry Argov, author of the upcoming Why Men Marry Bitches: A Woman's Guide to Winning Her Man's Heart
* Dan Indante, co-author of The Complete A**hole's Guide to Handling Chicks
* Lisa Freedman, 22
* Judy Coleman, 24
* Marcelle Karp, 41

Q: Bad boys. What’s the allure?
Dan Indante: Women are lying when they say they want a nice guy. Their mothers might want them to meet Mr. Right, but they all want the bad boys. The nice guys are too accessible, and women really want what they can't have. When a guy treats a woman poorly, it makes her think she can’t have him. It’s the thrill of the hunt, the forbidden fruit.

Sherry Argov: I pin it on low self-worth. The allure is that she believes she deserves a guy who treats her poorly. Two-thirds of women are insecure and will gravitate towards bad boys. Women with high self-worth wouldn't put up with bad behavior for 30 seconds.

Marcelle: A bad boy has a bit of danger about him—and if you fall for him, you'll have a long drop. My first bad boy, Erik, had a quick sense of humor, a tragic family history, and gorgeous green eyes. His best friend Steven had the hugest crush on me and was such a good guy. I went for Erik.

Lisa: As a high-strung type, I was always attracted to bad boys because they were relaxed and didn’t care about anything. I thought maybe it would rub off on me. I dated a guy who dabbled in illicit behavior, and I became mysterious and bad by association.

Q: Are there certain times women are more drawn to bad boys—say, when they’re young and not interested in a serious relationship?
Sherry Argov: Women are more attracted to bad boys when they're in their twenties. Bad boys put women they're seeing into a holding pattern where they keep the relationship from progressing. For younger women, this is a way to avoid ever having to get that close.

Marcelle: My tastes definitely changed over time. Bad boys slept on futons, good guys slept in real beds. After a while, I started wanting to sleep in a real bed.

Q: How does a guy give himself away as good or bad on a first date?
Lisa: I can tell if he’ll be a good guy or a bad boy before we even go out. If he’s too shy when we make plans, he’s going to be a lame good-guy date. But if he takes charge and tells me what we'll be doing, I know I may have found a bad boy.

Judy: The number one sign of a bad boy is someone who says, "We're just having fun" or "I like hanging out with you"—the same way you'd talk about a friend.

Sherry Argov: The bad boy is smooth, slick—rehearsed. Chances are, he has his con down pat. He's also impatient with regards to sex. At the end of the night, a bad boy will come on too strong and say things like, "You're a prude," "You're too uptight," "You're not trusting me."

Q: Can a bad boy turn good? Or a good guy turn bad?
Lisa: I could never turn a bad boy good, even though I tried (and had fun trying). I didn't want to make him all good—just a little bit so I could have the best of both worlds. But I have definitely turned good guys bad. They're so eager to please; they'll do anything you want. Good guys are normally afraid to try fun stuff in the bedroom, but that's usually the first place I could get them to change.

Marcelle: Once you tame a bad boy, there's nothing bad about him—he becomes human. The really, really bad boys could never be scared straight, though.

Judy: I succeeded in turning a bad boy good once. We dated for six weeks, during which time he was flaky and treated me badly, until he ultimately broke up with me. But we never fell completely out of touch. He says he wants to get back together, calls regularly and checks in, and his tone is completely different. But he had his chance, and he blew it.

Q: Can a good guy get a little bit of the bad-boy mystique? Should he?
Sherry Argov: A little bit of bad boy is OK—like salt in your diet. Don't be too obvious about how much you like a woman; leave her wondering a little bit. Do most of the pursuing, but not all. Keep her guessing about your whereabouts to a certain degree. Be a little bit mysterious.

Dan Indante: He should save the chivalry for his mom or sister. When he's out on a date, the woman should wonder a bit about how he feels about her—like, if she weren't there, someone else would be.

Q: In the end, who really wins: The nice guy or the bad boy?
Sherry Argov: The good guy—who is also smart enough to sustain intrigue by keeping the woman guessing a little bit.

Lisa: I'm with someone now who's a good guy with a hint of bad boy. He's not afraid to challenge me, but he’s totally trustworthy, supportive, and treats me right—none of which I'd get with a bad boy.

Judy: The guy I'm dating right now is a 100-percent good guy—and I could not be happier. I don't have to ever think about nice things he could be doing for me, because he's already done them.

Freelance writer Matt Schneiderman has written for Stuff and Sync magazines. He is a pretty good guy.

What do you guys say?
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/greencapt/hansolovsindy.jpg
Author
Time
I have to say that that reminded how completely inane the dating world is and makes me very glad I've been in a steady relationship for the past three years. Don't know if I could ever go back to "hunting". I'm definitely a good guy. I don't know how to be anything else. And it's quite annoying that women constantly go down that destructive road with the bad boys only to realize about 15 years later that they were acting really stupid.

A bit bitter, yes.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
This is the reaking story of my life. I've always been a good guy, and gained nothing.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
I was the bad boy right out of high school and into my mid-twenties. Then I settled down. Without exaggerating, I used to exude confidence and menace, and my date book usually reflected that. I pretty much didn't care who I pissed off, played highly aggressive in sports, rose to positions of authority in my various employments, had a ton of friends and even more enemies. However, the game got old and so did I. I calmed down, and as a result married a girl I met when I was working at a fast-food restaurant during my early college days and we've been together for 11 years, married 8. I've kind of picked up on her wanting a little of the old me on occasion, and I've tried to oblige. One thing I never understand is why, WHY do they go for the guy that treats them like dirt? I never did that, no matter how much of an a-hole I was back then.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Originally posted by: JediSage
I was the bad boy right out of high school and into my mid-twenties. Then I settled down. Without exaggerating, I used to exude confidence and menace, and my date book usually reflected that. I pretty much didn't care who I pissed off, played highly aggressive in sports, rose to positions of authority in my various employments, had a ton of friends and even more enemies. However, the game got old and so did I. I calmed down, and as a result married a girl I met when I was working at a fast-food restaurant during my early college days and we've been together for 11 years, married 8. I've kind of picked up on her wanting a little of the old me on occasion, and I've tried to oblige. One thing I never understand is why, WHY do they go for the guy that treats them like dirt? I never did that, no matter how much of an a-hole I was back then.


The fickleness of humanity. Fickleness is a bitch.
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/greencapt/hansolovsindy.jpg
Author
Time
i wanted to write about this from personal experience, that and it interested me how much guys really think about this whole topic.

In my world you MARRY the nice guy and you date the assholes until you realize you need to grow up and start dating the nice guys cuz its time to start thinking family, future, babies etc.

I started with the asshole bf. then i dated the nice guy. then i dated the asshole. then i fell for the nice guy, we lasted longer than anyone else (at that time). but then we broke up cuz heaven forbid he was the nice guy and hell i wanted a bad boy. so i found a bad boy a year later. he moved and i rebounded with another bad boy. now i'm waiting... to date the nice guy.


my friends and i have had countless discussions about the 'nice guy' and 'bad guy' thing. part of it is we like the chase. we love going after things we can't have. the bad boy symbolizes what we shouldn't have, not so much what we can't. but deep down, we do want to be treated like a princess, we do like the charmers and most importantly we like the nice guy who actually cares about us, likes us for us and so on. the bad boy thing is normally a phase in women, and i feel sorry for those who can't step out of that phase or cycle. cuz in reality there are soo many nice guys out there, the bad guys just blind us with false hope and put the nice guys in a shadow... but one day, we wake up and see into that shadow and realize the guy we SHOULD be with has been there all along...

~* you know you love me... xoxo *~

Author
Time
Thing is, I don't give a rats ass anymore. I'm not a "bad boy" due to a false image I'd need to construct so people can admire or want me. That's just bullshit. I'll be whoever I am and if girls want to be with the moronic weight-lifter or with the stupid bastard who'll cheat on her, go ahead. To me, this whole thing of women wanting the unreachable and being seduced by the pseudo-bad boy is just stupid, and frankly, I don't want to lose my time on someone who treats a whole relationship in such juvenile way.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
I think I'm a very nice guy, but my wife complains often when I finish first.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
Author
Time
I would definitely consider myself a nice guy, and I think I saw a perfect example of what sets me apart just last night.

I attended the Cleveland Indians game last night with my father. We picked up some food and went to the park to eat it, arriving shortly before the gates opened. Jacob's Field has a picnic plaza just beyond its center field wall, so we ate while we watched the visiting team (Seattle Mariners) batting practice. Shortly after we got there, in came this quite attractive (well, except the excessive eye shadow) woman. Tanned/Italian dark skin. Shirt tied of in the back to show her stomach. Long dark hair.

Now, I would consider it presumptuous, forward and bordering on rude to say anything (plus who's going to try to pick up a woman in front of their own father?). She wasn't there 5 minutes when a guy roughly 50 feet away yelled "How old are you?" Once she figured out it was directed at her, she responded that she was 22 and asked if that was alright. I believe his response was "Perfect." or something to that effect.

Later, after her friend had showed up, I heard her talking about "hooking up" after the game with this guy and his friends, then the friend said they shouldn't commit to anything.

I don't know how to describe what I felt.
Part of it was that the question "Its that easy?" ran through my head.
Another was that a woman would show so little respect for themselves that they would consider meet up with a complete stranger like that.

Maybe I'm living in a fantasy world, but I don't think it should be like that. I know I couldn't do it that way. I think I've said it here before, but there is more than a handful of women who visit the library work that I would love to get to know better (some of them I already know better than they would think, thanks to my very strong powers of observation), but I, as I mentioned above, would not dare be that presumptuous in saying something to them, especially at the library. Maybe, MAYBE if I saw them on the street...

I have to face facts.
My grandmother is right.
Its going to take a woman asking ME out for anything to start.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: starkiller
I have to face facts.
My grandmother is right.
Its going to take a woman asking ME out for anything to start.


Yeah but it starts to get sad when you be alone for such a long time your family starts rumors that you're gay. And it's even sadder when you begin considering that alternative.

Women who want bad boys! Blame youselves for the emo trend!
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Originally posted by: ricarleite
Originally posted by: starkiller
I have to face facts.
My grandmother is right.
Its going to take a woman asking ME out for anything to start.


Yeah but it starts to get sad when you be alone for such a long time your family starts rumors that you're gay. And it's even sadder when you begin considering that alternative.

Women who want bad boys! Blame youselves for the emo trend!
Thank goodness I'm not to THAT point yet. The particular suburb of Cleveland I'm in has a reputation for having the highest percentage of gay population in the United States outside San Fransisco.
Author
Time
we don't really want the bad boys. and star i have to say if that chick was seriously talking to her friend about hooking up with that guy and her friends... talk about desperate. the only way i could see her justifying that is if she either a)just broke up with a guy and wanted some kinda revenge or b) she was in dire need of action as it had been a while.
still i'm not the type of person that woudl ever randomly hook up with a stranger. almost did it once, but key word was almost, i came to my senses and realized it was not me and it wouldn't have been smart. that and i was doing it for revenge/rebound. so overall it could have been a very bad judgement call.

and another thing, some girls don't have a problem putting moves on guys, even if it is the first move on a new guy she's dating. its just a problem when she is ALWAYS the one to have to put the moves on him... then it makes us wonder how much he really wants us.

~* you know you love me... xoxo *~

Author
Time
Well, I also consider myself a nice guy. The problem with me, at least I think it is, seems to be that I can't tell when a girl actually likes me. I never could pick up the "signals' and all that stuff. Besides, after seeing the way some girls treat guys, it almost seems like it would be better not to be around them and just enjoy my own company.
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Hot.like.fire
and another thing, some girls don't have a problem putting moves on guys, even if it is the first move on a new guy she's dating. its just a problem when she is ALWAYS the one to have to put the moves on him... then it makes us wonder how much he really wants us.

This is the unfortunate byproduct of the litigious culture we live in. When you can get sued for sexual harrasment simply for giving an awkward glance to the unreceptive or get charged with raping your own wife, the pussification of the male is inevitable. As a result, many men just wait to be advanced on to know its okay. Men can handle rejection. We can't handle litigation or jail time. Meanwhile, many women still sit around and wait for what humans are biologically programmed for: the male advance. As a result, we have a generation that doesn't comprehend intimacy, is lousy at sex until reaching their late 20s, and doesn't procreate until their 40s.

Its especially problematic in the U.S. Not so much in latin cultures (both Europe and the western hemisphere), Asian cultures, and African cultures where male sexual advance isn't yet taboo.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Switch Radic
Well, I also consider myself a nice guy. The problem with me, at least I think it is, seems to be that I can't tell when a girl actually likes me. I never could pick up the "signals' and all that stuff. Besides, after seeing the way some girls treat guys, it almost seems like it would be better not to be around them and just enjoy my own company.
That is another of my (many) problems.

About a month ago I was at a Dave and Busters with a couple of my friends (the only 2 people from high school I see regularly anymore). I don't recall the exact phrasing they used, but they essentially told me our waitress was 'into me'. I responded that its a waitress' job to be cordial...that's how they keep their jobs and receive decent tips.

So, let's sum this up:
1. I don't know how to pick up on the subtle signals I might be getting.
2. I would consider it rude/presumptuous to make the first move. Even the thought of doing that makes me break into a sweat.
3. I would consider it a violation of my personal code to say anything to a library patron while on the job.
4. I'm a combination of
- Stanley Ipkis (Jim Carrey from The Mask)
- George McFly (Back to the Future)
- Cliff Clavin (Cheers)
and now I think I have to add
- Adrian Monk (TV show Monk).
Author
Time
okay first of all, you have to THINK you're hot shit. remember in the 40 yr old virgin when Andy acts like he's the bomb and ends up attracting the hot girl in the book store? at first he couldn't think he could do it, but he acted the confident part and she wanted to jump him. a little bit of over confidence is good, too much makes you look like a jerk. but most guys can find that happy medium.
signals can be difficult. first off we love a chase, so we may give you the green light then run away. we do it all for a reaction. next time you think you're getting a signal, say something coy. innuendos always go a long way. and if she is thinking on the same page as you, she'll pick it up instantly (unless she's clueless and dumb in which case move on cuz you don't want to waste your time on those kinda girls). if she plays too many games, move on, cuz she's obviously trying to be a playerette or something. just go with you gut instinct.
chances are she's prob a little nervous too, waiting to see if you'll make a move.

~* you know you love me... xoxo *~

Author
Time
I used to be the dorky kid that never had a girlfriend.....I was 22 and thought there was no hope:-( I for some reason couldn't work up the courage to ask a girl out or really even talk to girls.

Then I started socially drinking (I know, I'm a real late bloomer). I started to see that my social fears were stupid and started talking to more people and even started going out with someone. I'm living with her now, more than a year later and am very happy.

The moral of my story?
-Drinking makes it easier to talk to girls. (not being an alcoholic)

Also....The story about the girl that hooked up with the guy at the baseball game...Assuming this was a regular occurance for her...She probably has the clap and a wide variety of HPV strains. Who wants genital warts? Not me!
Author
Time
Treat'em like dirt on they stick like mud. Leykis 101.

I'm tired of being nice and getting the short end. My last girlfriend used me all the way. If I'm single the rest of my life so be it. The money I save being single is awesome.

By the way thanks for girl's perspective HLF. You should write a book for helpless singles. Seems like you know your sh*t.
"KILLING IS MY BUSINESS, AND BUSINESS IS GOOD."
Author
Time
PeculiarSatyr,
See, I don't drink, by choice. I just do not like alcohol. Makes "social drinking" difficult.

As for the girl at the ballgame, who knows. I don't have any idea that she even met up with the guy.

Rotten Johnny,
I can't disagree with monetary benefits of being single. I've got more money in the bank than a lot of the other people I know.
However, I feel as though there is something missing from my life and money cannot make up for that.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Hot.like.fire
okay first of all, you have to THINK you're hot shit. remember in the 40 yr old virgin when Andy acts like he's the bomb and ends up attracting the hot girl in the book store? at first he couldn't think he could do it, but he acted the confident part and she wanted to jump him. a little bit of over confidence is good, too much makes you look like a jerk. but most guys can find that happy medium.
signals can be difficult. first off we love a chase, so we may give you the green light then run away. we do it all for a reaction. next time you think you're getting a signal, say something coy. innuendos always go a long way. and if she is thinking on the same page as you, she'll pick it up instantly (unless she's clueless and dumb in which case move on cuz you don't want to waste your time on those kinda girls). if she plays too many games, move on, cuz she's obviously trying to be a playerette or something. just go with you gut instinct.
chances are she's prob a little nervous too, waiting to see if you'll make a move.


Now THAT'S good advice. I didn't agree with you before about girls not 'really' liking the bad-boys. Girls are attracted to jerks because they're confident and that's that. BUT, there can be more - one can have more success than a jerk. If a 'nice guy' is confident AND funny and gets the combination just right - it's like magic to a woman, minus all the abuse and selfishness that comes from dating a jerk.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
Author
Time
I read HLF's posts, and it just makes me think how, in those situations, men are in a game that was made up by women and it's only the creators of the game who know the rules. I don't think that relationships should be a chasing thing. Love is one of the most precious and rare commodities, and people act so stupid waiting for signals and acting coy and not being honest with their feelings, preferring to "hook up" rather than go for something important. In my opinion, romantic relationships should spawn from friendships. Not some random hot girl you see across the street or in a bar or a club. Get to know someone, for crying out loud! Then you won't have to play those stupid games. You'll already have the basis for a sound relationship. Of course, girls seem to have that problem of not being able to develop feelings for friends. The best friend guy becomes the shoulder to cry on and the receptive ear for stories about her guy problems. The guy deludes himself into thinking that maybe one day she'll see him for the perfect guy for her that he knows he is. But she never does, and everything crashes and burns in a fiery ball. Yeah, I've been there in the past, and, yeah, I'm bitter. But that risk aside, it really is the safest way for a good relationship to bloom.

You know what, ric's right. Girls just make this too complicated by making really stupid choices. I'm so glad I don't have to worry about that kind of crap anymore.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Originally posted by: Rotten Johnny
Treat'em like dirt on they stick like mud. Leykis 101.

I'm tired of being nice and getting the short end. My last girlfriend used me all the way. If I'm single the rest of my life so be it. The money I save being single is awesome.

By the way thanks for girl's perspective HLF. You should write a book for helpless singles. Seems like you know your sh*t.

aww she used you? what a f*cking skank-whore BITCH! this is what pisses me off about girls. they treat the nice guys badly and then for the next few years you guys are scared to enter the dating circle cuz of pain caused by some girl who didn't deserve you in the first place. ugh that makes me soo mad!


Originally posted by: theredbaron
Now THAT'S good advice. I didn't agree with you before about girls not 'really' liking the bad-boys. Girls are attracted to jerks because they're confident and that's that. BUT, there can be more - one can have more success than a jerk. If a 'nice guy' is confident AND funny and gets the combination just right - it's like magic to a woman, minus all the abuse and selfishness that comes from dating a jerk.


redbaron you're right on the money.

after dating the jerks when we DO meet that guy that has the personality and the confidence it boosts his looks by like x1000. the thing with girls is even if we were dating a slightly unattractive guy (which i don't really think is possible cuz everyone has something attractive about them.. ) we can ALWAYS say to our friends... "but he's the NICEST guy in the world.. i like him so so much" and right away the rest of our friends put aside all judgemental thoughts and go with our feelings. trust me on this cuz it happened to me. one of my ex's i thought he was totally cute, like physics nerdy type. but i saw through that (and could tell he had a great body underneath those baggy clothes) and gave it a shot. and at first my friends were like wtf you are way to good looking for him and i was like no you don't get it, he's such a NICE GUY. as soon as the words left my mouth they wanted to know everything about him. including if he had single friends....

~* you know you love me... xoxo *~

Author
Time
Well, I haven't really been looking around for anybody to get to know. My life is pretty much this, work, sleep, eat, and on my days off, I just stay home and relax. Some interesting characters do show up at the store but there's never time to talk to them.

I really only have two friends right now and they are both moving out west. I'm really hoping for this new job not only for the job but for the envorment. Lotsa people my age in there. Well, I also haven't been really looking for a girl. Do you necessarily have to pursue a girl? I've heard some guys say that they come when you least expect it. They come when your not looking around for one.
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
Author
Time
On another note, I'm 17. A girlfriend is the last thing I need, money-wise. But the thing that pisses me off is when some girls act like they're out of your league, but you notice they never have a boyfriend.....so put 2 and 2 together...lol
http://www.my-musik.com/uploads/zidane006.gif