Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Ric, as a friend, I must say this: please, get off your high moral horse and come back to reality.
Originally posted by: ricarleite
Regarding this example, it made me think for a while. It's hard to say how justifiable it would be, as they were clearly fighting to save their own lifes. I belive that, on this case, the whole action was beyond the violence/non-violence issue. Imagine that the pilots were unconscious, wouldn't the passengers do something as well? Regardless of what is imposing the threat, they did the one action they had in mind, stopping the plane from crashing.
Wait a minute. They may have originally been fighting to save their own lives, but eventually there is the point where all they can do is prevent the plane from killing anyone else, which is what they did. Transcripts of some of the phone calls showed they had no illusions they were going to survive.
But they weren't willing to let themselves die either. I am not sure about the whole sequence of events, but I hardly think they crashed the plane, they were trying to make it land.
Well, great, Ric. Let's all go cry about it and pop some cyanide pills. Ugh. Give me a break and either get over it, or stop thinking about it.
Don't take everything I say regarding this literally.
But since I have hope on what I belive is right, I'll keep fighting for it. Not with my fists, but with my words and acts.
Regarding this example, it made me think for a while. It's hard to say how justifiable it would be, as they were clearly fighting to save their own lifes. I belive that, on this case, the whole action was beyond the violence/non-violence issue. Imagine that the pilots were unconscious, wouldn't the passengers do something as well? Regardless of what is imposing the threat, they did the one action they had in mind, stopping the plane from crashing.
Wait a minute. They may have originally been fighting to save their own lives, but eventually there is the point where all they can do is prevent the plane from killing anyone else, which is what they did. Transcripts of some of the phone calls showed they had no illusions they were going to survive.
But they weren't willing to let themselves die either. I am not sure about the whole sequence of events, but I hardly think they crashed the plane, they were trying to make it land.
Think for a while. Imagine an hypothetic country that never, ever atacks any country, unless it is being atacked (and NO this country does NOT exist in real world). It is not too hard to imagine why would a country have such a policy, right? I mean, most of us here would actually have that policy. We would rule our own countries this way, right? And yet, why dosen't every country do that? Mind their own business, being friendly with other nations, getting busy with their own things instead of trying to overcome the world and do harmful things to its own people or any other people? Why would anyone be a tyrant, a blood-shedding ruler?
There are evil people in the world Ric. And I believe that it is more noble to fight for others than for oneself. America was not being attacked by Germany, so would you by this standard condemn their involvement in WW2 in Europe? After all, only Japan directly attacked us.
Ah yes, there are evil people. They are born evil. Out of nowhere. And we all know how evil people get the means to cause violence easily. Try to think a little bit of why these evil people exist. And if only Japan attacked America, why did Hirohito lived until 1989? Why didn't the US or Britain remove Idi Amin Dada out of office?
Yes, Ric. Let's give the terrorists what they want. Let's let them drive America out of the Middle East when our intentions there are purely commercial and not in any way malevolent. Let us stand by as they bomb, shell, and shoot Israeli's until they flee their ancestral homeland or die. Let's let them treat their women like slaves and their children like weapons.
On second thought, no. Let's not. You think I'm being extreme? Well think about it. Negotiation is giving them some of what they want. But what they want is the DESTRUCTION of people, property, and a way of life. Those things are NOT on my bargaining table, and I think most sane people would agree!
I'll agree with you, if you propose me a plan to make sure these evil doers never atack again. I guess there aren't any big plans. We'll keep bombing foreign countries and killing people to prevail our safety and freedom.
We might as well be doomned, and frankly, the whole situation bring me to consider that a worldwide suicide is the solution
There are evil people in the world Ric. And I believe that it is more noble to fight for others than for oneself. America was not being attacked by Germany, so would you by this standard condemn their involvement in WW2 in Europe? After all, only Japan directly attacked us.
Ah yes, there are evil people. They are born evil. Out of nowhere. And we all know how evil people get the means to cause violence easily. Try to think a little bit of why these evil people exist. And if only Japan attacked America, why did Hirohito lived until 1989? Why didn't the US or Britain remove Idi Amin Dada out of office?
Peace is teorically possible, there is nothing forcing us to be violent. What is it then? Money? Quest for power? And for what? Don't you guys agree that it is possible to make sure we have countries that only do good? How do we acomplish that? One way could be by killing all the evil doers who are currently in power. Hitler, Saddam, Stalin, Idi Amin Dada (which was ignored by the world but oh well) all those bad guys. Kill em all. Get an army, move into the country, depose the tyrant and install a democratic regime.
Realisticially this isn't possible. Military resources spread too thin are doomed to failure too.
Agree. But I wasn't really proposing such action.
Hey, they did the best they could with what they had, and they are remembered as heroes. Everyone else on all the other plains are victims. If I had to choose, I'd prefer to be remembered a hero.
I agree on the hero part. But I hardly think they were crashing it deliberatedly to the ground.
But what I want to focus is not on that particular moment in history, but on ALL the moments that culminated on that morning of september 11, 2001. On why the situation escalated into that, and how can we focus on PEACE from now on, so things like that don't happen in the future. And I'm sorry to say that by making wars we will NEVER achieve success.
Realisticially this isn't possible. Military resources spread too thin are doomed to failure too.
Agree. But I wasn't really proposing such action.
Oh but wait. You guys said that there will always be a Hitler being born in a sea of Gandhis. The human kind will never be pure. So, by killing those, you are only bringing violence into the world, but making these "nails" shorter, not ever completely cut. It's a strategy, and a valid one if you think about it. But not 100% effective, and guaranteed to bring death and pain to the whole world.
What's your point. All this hypothetical nonsense has nothing to do with the real world we live in where most of the UN nations on the human rights commisssion are nations with horrible track records in human rights. THAT is the kind of world we live in Ric. We need solutions that work HERE, not in a hypothetical world.
I am not sure why you have chosen this part of my quotes to reply, as I was not mentioning any hypothetical nonsense at this part of the text. What I was saying is that in your real world, there is no way a complete victory can be achieved, so violence must be used constatly and forever. Keeping your own "freedom", which is highly debatable, by mantaining an army powerful enough to secure your own way of life. So let's keep it simple, the REAL world: Evil people come out of nowhere. They want to end our freedom and way of life due to some unknown reason (well actually we don't care, they are evil doers!). We destroy his army, or his country, or himself, whatever is posing the threat. We keep our secure lifes in our own homes. The rest of the world has to live the consequences. Oh well better luck next time, try to be BORN at a safe, democratic country, being rich if possible. Complete peace is an insane uthopic babbling spilled out by moronic liberals. We cannot even think of peace, as such act would envolve abandoning our violent means, and if we do that, the evil doers will come and slit our throats and slave us. They will NEVER abandon their violent ways. Never. Why? Because they are, uh... evil people. Evil people are born out of nowhere and are not, in any way, created by their environment. There will always be someone who wants to punch me, and the only way to win, is to punch back harder. That's pretty much the real world, right?
Definitely not. Negotiation with people who want to kill you and as many others as possible isn't possible.
Read about Ytzak Rabin, Chaltab, and the deal he orchestrated. And while you are at it, read about Gandhi and Lech Walesa (but only up until 1990 lol).
Was violence successful on that case? Partially, but they were not able to save their own lifes.
What's your point. All this hypothetical nonsense has nothing to do with the real world we live in where most of the UN nations on the human rights commisssion are nations with horrible track records in human rights. THAT is the kind of world we live in Ric. We need solutions that work HERE, not in a hypothetical world.
I am not sure why you have chosen this part of my quotes to reply, as I was not mentioning any hypothetical nonsense at this part of the text. What I was saying is that in your real world, there is no way a complete victory can be achieved, so violence must be used constatly and forever. Keeping your own "freedom", which is highly debatable, by mantaining an army powerful enough to secure your own way of life. So let's keep it simple, the REAL world: Evil people come out of nowhere. They want to end our freedom and way of life due to some unknown reason (well actually we don't care, they are evil doers!). We destroy his army, or his country, or himself, whatever is posing the threat. We keep our secure lifes in our own homes. The rest of the world has to live the consequences. Oh well better luck next time, try to be BORN at a safe, democratic country, being rich if possible. Complete peace is an insane uthopic babbling spilled out by moronic liberals. We cannot even think of peace, as such act would envolve abandoning our violent means, and if we do that, the evil doers will come and slit our throats and slave us. They will NEVER abandon their violent ways. Never. Why? Because they are, uh... evil people. Evil people are born out of nowhere and are not, in any way, created by their environment. There will always be someone who wants to punch me, and the only way to win, is to punch back harder. That's pretty much the real world, right?
My idea is to focus on peace. That's why I always speak against companies that profit from war, countries and leaders who do the same, and fundamentalist leaders who use religion in order to get their personal agenda done
Hence, the Islamofacisists united against America.
And why? So far, no one was able to answer me. You really don't care to know why? Wouldn't that be useful so other countries don't do the same?
Gandhi would tell everyone that they should just allow themselves to die. I can't speak for what Jesus would do, but his options are pretty much infinite. If he wanted them all to live, he could just teleport them off the plain.
I just hope you are kidding about the "teleport".
Makes me think, Jesus is not really the person to follow. His words are uthopic liberal propaganda in an old book no one reads anymore, that... uh... Bible thing.
Could they be successful? Maybe, maybe not.
Hence, the Islamofacisists united against America.
And why? So far, no one was able to answer me. You really don't care to know why? Wouldn't that be useful so other countries don't do the same?
My idea is to BELIVE we can achieve the hypothetical country, and prevent the evil doers from getting into power in first place, by making sure its people is educated and independent enough to diplomatic fight those.
But how do we prevent this? No one man controls the political system of the world, Ric, and God help us if one ever did! Your system would essentially require a set of Dragon Balls or a nifty genie.
It may sound insane, and you will NEVER understand or agree, but... what about not resorting to violence in the first place? Think about it.
Again, the only control we have over OTHER nations is either through the worthless and innefectual UN, or through diplomatic or military action. And "Peace" is a non word in places like North Korea and Iran.
Analyze their history and see why is that. Due to a violence imposed into them earlier.
So, back to the example you gave, of that 9-11 flight. Could it be justifiable, under those circustances? Maybe. Hard to think of what Gandhi or Jesus would do in such situation. Probably try to negociate or reason.
But how do we prevent this? No one man controls the political system of the world, Ric, and God help us if one ever did! Your system would essentially require a set of Dragon Balls or a nifty genie.
It may sound insane, and you will NEVER understand or agree, but... what about not resorting to violence in the first place? Think about it.
Taking the analogy of countries and leaders, the same can be done to people. We can prevent violence on tough neighborhoods on our cities, can't we? And some had some progress, take New York City as an example. Isn't it possible to build a better world, no matter how big or small this "world" is? FOCUS on peace.
Again, the only control we have over OTHER nations is either through the worthless and innefectual UN, or through diplomatic or military action. And "Peace" is a non word in places like North Korea and Iran.
Analyze their history and see why is that. Due to a violence imposed into them earlier.
So, back to the example you gave, of that 9-11 flight. Could it be justifiable, under those circustances? Maybe. Hard to think of what Gandhi or Jesus would do in such situation. Probably try to negociate or reason.
Gandhi would tell everyone that they should just allow themselves to die. I can't speak for what Jesus would do, but his options are pretty much infinite. If he wanted them all to live, he could just teleport them off the plain.
I just hope you are kidding about the "teleport".
Makes me think, Jesus is not really the person to follow. His words are uthopic liberal propaganda in an old book no one reads anymore, that... uh... Bible thing.
Could they be successful? Maybe, maybe not.
Definitely not. Negotiation with people who want to kill you and as many others as possible isn't possible.
Read about Ytzak Rabin, Chaltab, and the deal he orchestrated. And while you are at it, read about Gandhi and Lech Walesa (but only up until 1990 lol).
Was violence successful on that case? Partially, but they were not able to save their own lifes.
Hey, they did the best they could with what they had, and they are remembered as heroes. Everyone else on all the other plains are victims. If I had to choose, I'd prefer to be remembered a hero.
I agree on the hero part. But I hardly think they were crashing it deliberatedly to the ground.
But what I want to focus is not on that particular moment in history, but on ALL the moments that culminated on that morning of september 11, 2001. On why the situation escalated into that, and how can we focus on PEACE from now on, so things like that don't happen in the future. And I'm sorry to say that by making wars we will NEVER achieve success.
Yes, Ric. Let's give the terrorists what they want. Let's let them drive America out of the Middle East when our intentions there are purely commercial and not in any way malevolent. Let us stand by as they bomb, shell, and shoot Israeli's until they flee their ancestral homeland or die. Let's let them treat their women like slaves and their children like weapons.
On second thought, no. Let's not. You think I'm being extreme? Well think about it. Negotiation is giving them some of what they want. But what they want is the DESTRUCTION of people, property, and a way of life. Those things are NOT on my bargaining table, and I think most sane people would agree!
I'll agree with you, if you propose me a plan to make sure these evil doers never atack again. I guess there aren't any big plans. We'll keep bombing foreign countries and killing people to prevail our safety and freedom.
We might as well be doomned, and frankly, the whole situation bring me to consider that a worldwide suicide is the solution
Well, great, Ric. Let's all go cry about it and pop some cyanide pills. Ugh. Give me a break and either get over it, or stop thinking about it.
Don't take everything I say regarding this literally.
But since I have hope on what I belive is right, I'll keep fighting for it. Not with my fists, but with my words and acts.
Ric, as a friend, I must say this: please, get off your high moral horse and come back to reality.
I'll not change the way you think. I cannot do this. But you can. Try to consider facts that you belive could be reasonable on this discussion, and while I cannot ask you to stop thinking the way you do, try to add some new values to your thought and consider other options whenever you are facing a situation in which violence could be one of the ways out. I am focusing on this line of thought because I wish the best I can for the next generations and the world, and that is the way I belive we can achieve it.
LOL I said I wouldn't talk about it anymore, but you guys just drag me into the discussion again, eh? Hey, someone wants to take my place here, I need a rest from typing.
Regardless of what you read above, Chaltab, do NOT take it personally. Please, don't mix up my opinions and views of something, into something else. While we disagree on a number of things, we agree on others, and share the same interests in others. I have nothing against anyone here personally, quite the opposite! So if you feel I've said something that personally offends you, please say it, let's talk about it and not let it be this way. OK?
Chaltab no more excuses of your wi-fi houter being broken, we gotta do our Mario Kart DS challenge