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The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Director's Cut (Released) — Page 12

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No there isn't.


Thankfully the movie's junk.




>> Could you send me the clip of Phido grudgingly stepping onto Zig-Zag's cane from the better workprint or should I just wait for the materials you're sending?


I believe that clip has a different design for Phido than what wound up in the workprint. Use the Animating Art version.

The Animating Art version is clearer anyway.




I can't get your video to play (doesn't recognize the format), but it's okay.
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Originally posted by: ocpmovieI can't get your video to play (doesn't recognize the format), but it's okay.


Same here, and I have a lot of codecs on my computer.
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According to MPC, it's your basic Divx file. I had no trouble.

As for codecs, I use K-lite Mega myself.

http://www.codecguide.com/

Looks pretty good.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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I am starting to get interested in your project OCP. I have a couple of questions?

1. Is this the closest possible version of the Thief and the cobbler to the workprint? or is this the way you want it?

2. Where are you getting your knowledge of the scenes that were never finished

3. Do you plan for your version to do justice and pay tribute to what Richard tried to do?.

4. Are there any scenes you are starting from scratch?

Remember, Highlander, you’ve both still got your full measure of life. Use it well, and your future will be glorious.

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Direct link to the file, which worked for me.

Animating Art:
http://upload3.putfile.com/videos/6523474274.avi

It looks good, Patrick! Definitely helps to see the animated segments in full quality.

The Art film itself looks kind of green, perhaps you can color correct that a bit.


1. Is this the closest possible version of the Thief and the cobbler to the workprint? or is this the way you want it?

It is extremely close to the workprint, but is presented in a much more finished state. I've made my own creative decisions in terms of editing, adding music and reworking scenes, to make the film seem more "finished."

2. Where are you getting your knowledge of the scenes that were never finished

It's all fairly obvious when you've studied the film in as much detail as I have. (It helps that I did this six years ago.) But by combining the workprint (and other unfinished cuts of the film) with the released versions a picture definitely arises of how scenes should play out.

My edit even includes scenes animated by Williams that weren't in the workprint.

3. Do you plan for your version to do justice and pay tribute to what Richard tried to do?

What a silly question. Of course.

4. Are there any scenes you are starting from scratch?

I'm not sure what you mean. No, no new animation is being created for this edit. That would be crazy.
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4. Are there any scenes you are starting from scratch?

I'm not sure what you mean. No, no new animation is being created for this edit. That would be crazy.

****What I mean is, there raw state such as the scenes in the workprint.

Such as you animated the claw in one scene yourself, was that hard? and are there other scenes like that that you are addingt hings back in? Little things... sorry if I sound confusing but it's interesting stuff...

Remember, Highlander, you’ve both still got your full measure of life. Use it well, and your future will be glorious.

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I'm still not sure what you mean exactly, but never mind.

Well, the claw animation, and the animation of the rocks, in that one shot, I did because they were simple, linear bits of motion, easy to replicate. I thought that in this case, it was worth it to make the shot look like it came from a better source.

Every scene cuts back and forth between DVD quality and workprint quality, it's quite an interesting watch. In the second half of the film some scenes were only available in pan & scan, so pan & scan DVD images were placed over the widescreen but poor quality workprint.


Some scenes have been reinstated that don't appear in the workprint ... notably a short jousting fight between Tack and Zigzag (pencil test), a small conversation between Zigzag and One Eye, an extra bit of dialogue for the witch, a few Fred Calvert inventions ... the Calvert fight between Zigzag and Tack is still in there as I speak, but may not last.



THE COLLECTION

I've just completed two more Richard Williams related DVDs. Which makes three that I've done today ... and I did another one yesterday.

The two new ones are:

+ Ziggy's Gift/Ziggy Cartoons/Fred Calvert's Princess and the Cobbler: Work In Progress Version
+ The Thief and the Cobbler workprint

I was going to leave Ziggy's Gift on its own disc, because it was a retail disc with proper menus, but it's less than 2 gigs large! Ridiculously tiny, so I put it on with the Calvert WIP.

This brings the total number of discs in the set down to 9, rather than 10. Which is nice.

The Workprint is a remix of the one Stanch sent me. It retains the very good picture quality, but I've added sound to a long section of the film where there was none in his copy. There are a few picture faults mostly during the witch scene, so I've placed the appropriate parts of my other copies of the workprint on the "Animating Art" disc, so that someone who needs those shots can get them.

The sound remains in PCM format, as it was on the original - I haven't downconverted to AC3. "Blooper Bunny" has been omitted.

I think that Ziggy's Gift is still in print as a DVD, but I believe that everything else on my list was never commercially available or is long since out of print. Even the Arabian Knight japanese (widescreen) DVD is apparently out of print, and I'm sure The Princess and the Cobbler isn't getting any less rare.
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Wow ocpmovie. I am so looking forward to this collection. I have just viewed the trailer and it looks fantastic. Admittedly, my knowledge of Richard Williams was a big fat zero before you outlined this project. But now, after all your amazing info and work, I am really looking forward to discovering Richard William's work.

What's even better is your involvement with Williams, albeit not on Thief itself, but in his studio. That is a great personal touch on the project.

I don't know how you find time to keep us updated and informed on everything you're doing and the details of everything. Just what you have written here is a fantastic resource in itself.

Once released, this collection will sit with pride next to good old Roger Rabbit. I best find myself a week off work to indulge myself in it all.

Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see it.
where have i been all this time ?
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LOL - Just to clarify, I've still never met or spoken with Richard Williams, or visited any of his studios or anything. But several people helping me out here have ... several people worked on the film. =)

I hope I can get in touch with him one of these days.
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4. Are there any scenes you are starting from scratch?
I'm not sure what you mean. No, no new animation is being created for this edit. That would be crazy.


So you haven't ruled it out, heh heh.

Dr. M

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I'm getting annoyed with the IMDB. They seem to be ignoring all of the cast/crew submissions (I did give them references), as well as changing the title back.

However, they were speedy with adding technical stuff (Panavision, workprint runtime, movie connection to Fantasia). I guess it's not high on anyone's priority.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Mailed out 14 packages yesterday, 11 today, pretty much all "Thief" care packages to the people who've been helping out here.

I have dug up a 1988 issue of "Comics Scene" magazine (from the publishers of Starlog/Fangoria), which features a very in-depth article about The Thief, called "Richard Williams and The Thief: 23 Years of Arabian Nights." (An ironic title considering the Miramax title!)

Williams didn't allow any actual artwork from The Thief to be used in the article (Roger Rabbit artwork is included instead), but talks about it at length.

I was 7. I slept on Roger Rabbit bedsheets. I had a Roger bendy toy and a Jessica PVC. You better believe I was interested in The Thief.

Weirdly, the article mentions "Princesses Yumyum and Meme" ... but doesn't mention Tack.

The issue also talks to John Byrne about the She-Hulk (a definite favorite of mine when I was about 12-13, and still great), they talk to Alan Moore, which went over my head at the time, discuss Garfield and Friends, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Bakshi/Kricfalusi's Beany & Cecil revival (which I was interested in having been reared on the original, but which was cancelled immediately) ...

Seriously, reading this, times have not changed a bit.

I also dug up my copy of Williams' The Animator's Survival Kit, and Tony White's The Animator's Workbook. The White book I also received in 1988 ... Christmas 1988. Hell of a book to dump on a 7 year old. Then again, at 7 I wasn't much different than I am now.
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Hmm. I Netflixed the special edition of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, which I'd seen ... a good special edition with good new documentaries, though Williams isn't in the commentary =(

The Thief rates a few mentions in the "trivia track." Eighteen years later, Who Framed Roger Rabbit seems just as much of a technical achievement and miracle as it did then. Such a great film, brilliantly directed, animated, performed and effects-ized. Er. A rare combination of talents.

Bit of Star Wars related trivia - obviously there are a few Star Wars connections to Roger, most obvious being the presence of Richard Le Parmentier as Lt. Santino. But here's my favorite - in many of Jessica's scenes, the music is being improvised by a group of jazz musicians, including soloist Jerry Hey. Jerry Hey would later ... well, you know.

Anyway.

What they sent is actually disc 2 of the set, the widescreen version and the "adult" special features.

If I recall correctly, disc 1 is the pan & scan version with special features for kids.

I assume the trailer is on disc 1. It ain't on disc 2. I'd quite like to have the trailer. Might come in handy.

Anyone got this set?

Patrick?
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The trailer is an easter egg on the first disc.

To get to the trailer, you have to move around the button's on Benny's dashbord. You should highlight an arrow over some meter and click it. It's not in the best condition, but it's a good trailer. If you want, I can include it on the Animating Art restoration DVD.

FYI, the first disc isn't a total loss. The documentary for kids on RR has some more Richard Williams interviews, as well as all three RR cartoons released afterwards (Tummy Trouble in front of Honey I Shrunk the Kids... forgot the other two). In fact, all three cartoons are 1.85:1 anamorphic widescreen and have 5.1 sound! Not that it means anything for this project since they're not RWS productions. Still, it's nice that they kept the excellent production values and fluid animation style.

If you haven't seen the making-of on the 2nd disc yet, you'll love it. Williams has some interviews and you get to see a lot of raw animation. They would use B&W blow-up photographs to use as layout when animating so everything would line up.




Oh, also, I'm going to be a little busy this week, but I should get Animating Art finished by the end of the week. I'm having to re-do a few clips because I forgot to turn off cropping settings meant for Moving Day (it was windowboxed, unlike any of the other film clips).

I picked up the new remastered DVD for The Return of the Pink Panther and if you don't have it already, I can capture the opening animation. Same thing for Strikes Again if you want. Both of which are the great 16x9 remasters on disc.


And I tried to find out what the source was for the opening workprint music... I ran it by my uncle, who has a music major... he suspected it was Ralph Vaughan Williams (I thought this too), but it didn't match any works he could find! After seeing the Thames doc, perhaps it's possible that Williams had original music composed and orchestrated as he went? I mean, he was supervising effects mixing for individual scenes in 1982!

I also ordered The Animator's Survival Kit in paperback. Only $19 on Amazon.com!
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Yeah, I saw the making of from the RR DVD a while ago. It's a good one, very in depth, talking with Simon Wells and Andres Deja .... I didn't watch the kids disc though, and I can't seem to Netflix it.

How 'bout you put both the trailer and the documentary for kids on your Animating Art disc?
If you can send me disc 1 of Roger, I'd appreciate it.

>> In fact, all three cartoons are 1.85:1 anamorphic widescreen and have 5.1 sound! Not that it means anything for this project since they're not RWS productions.

Well, technically there is one Richard Williams contribution to Tummy Trouble. The voice of Droopy - an outtake from WFRR. =)



As far as the Pink Panther titles go, you really haven't gotten my package of DVDs yet, have you? Heheh ....


They're on there, along with everything else, on nine discs. Maybe you'll find something else on there you'll want to restore. Heh.
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Okay! LOTS OF BIG HIGH QUALITY SCANS UP!

http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/

First off, let's start off with the entire scanned article from Comics Scene - I read it when I was 7. Still have it. All these scans are very big.

http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/comicsscene1.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/comicsscene2.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/comicsscene3.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/comicsscene4.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/comicsscene5.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/comicsscene6.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/comicsscene7.jpg

Then ...

I decided to scan everything from "The Animator's Survival Kit" that related to The Thief or anything that was on the additional discs we've been creating for this collection. (A Christmas Carol, the commercials ...)

All these scans are very big, and the goal is that if anyone wants to make custom covers for some of the extra discs, you'll find plenty of material here.

http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/


Some comments on some of this:

This donkey appears to be the Mullah Nasrudin's donkey, from the aborted Nasrudin film that eventually became The Thief and the Cobbler.

http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/nasrudindonkey.jpg

It matches the design seen on the cover of the Nasrudin book, perfectly. If so, this is the only real artwork I've ever seen from this project.

Here's an entire run sequence for the Old Witch. This animation appears in the finished Thief and the Cobbler film (the Princess version, anyway), but not in this form. The Old Witch's head has been redrawn - this would appear to be an early version of the animation, completed sometime before 1980, with a different design for the Old Witch. She has a longer nose, a little ponytail for hair instead of the bun, and more expressive eyebrows. Looking closely at the final version, it appears that the new design was traced over this animation ... sadly losing some of its quality because of that.

http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/oldwitchduck.jpg
http://orangecow.org/thief/bookscans/oldwitchruns7.jpg

This changing of character designs when they'd already been animated happened a lot on this film. Phido in particular has had at least three designs that we can see in various documentaries and the workprint, and the final design is in some ways not as interesting, since it was simply traced over the old material. Early designs are evident all over the workprint for King Nod, Zigzag and The Thief.



(Incidentally, in many scenes in Who Framed Roger Rabbit, there's a newspaper prop "Toon Kills Man" showing an earlier design for Jessica Rabbit - she's blonde, has a much different face and a different dress which covers her breasts. It's even given closeups at times. Some scenes were reshot with a fixed version of the "pattycake photos," but the early jessica remains in many scenes. Suppose you could fix that digitally these days.)
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Oh, I'm going back to my apartment tomorrow (Sunday), so I haven't checked my mail there in a week.

I'll have to take a look at the materials... I think I'll do the GBS-TV airing with the newest cut you sent out so I can go ahead and get viewers while it's still fresh in mind.

I will say this, I'll make sure the Richard Williams Evening is well publicized... I want as many people exposed to the film as possible.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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You can do the Evening twice, surely?


A second time whenever I get my final cut out .... which will happen whenever I'm sure that Stanch has sent me the best copy of the workprint he can find! It's hard to wait, but I'm waiting ...
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i'm really excited about all of this, seeing the clips is amazing. about the 20MB limit, that can be fixed easily.
what you need to do is create a file called "phpinfo.php", and in the file only write the code:
<?
phpinfo();
?>

upload it on to your site and open it. then you will get a list of all the PHP variables attributed with your site. Look for one called upload_max_filesize. it is probably 20MB. You need to talk with whoever is able to access those (most likely tech support tickets @ cpanel work), and tell them to change it to whatever you wish. they will do it.
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It says max filesize 8MB. What a bunch of bastards.

I've written them about this before and gotten no response, or a condescending response.
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I'm watching the recobbled rough cut... I'm amazed by how seamless the edit is!

First off, I'm suspecting the Japanese DVD simply used a 35mm print that had been projected. This would explain the unusual amount of print damage and poor contrast. 35mm theatrical prints are balanced a certain way to work with projectors - nearly all studios have custom-made interpositives made for video transfers.

I see why the whole Maiden scene was cut out since part of it was unfinished.

One really amazing thing I noticed was that the original editing structure of the intended version is magnificent. It's weird how the altered versions would snip just a little off shots. I dunno why they'd alter some shots that were originally unbroken into separate shots. However, a lot of parts from the released versions in terms of sound are very good. The sound effects and music in the opening are appropriate. However, I don't like how they boosted Vincent Price's voice... I don't know if this is because of the Japanese DVD, but judging from the fidelity of his voice, they really didn't need to add so much bass. I'm really shocked that either version cut out a lot of totally finished animation (like the wounded soldier climbing up onto the horse and the thief attempting to steal Yum-Yum's shoes). You'd think they'd use every bit of animation as possible (finished and pencil). Especially since totally new animation would be more expensive than simply inking and painting stuff already drawn. Oh well, it's not like the post-Williams work followed the best logic anyways.

I'm extremely impressed with how well you able to merge everything together. It's facinating to see a shot cut so perfectly to the frame. In this version, you can follow thing so much better... I see how much of a bastard (as RW even said) Zig-Zag is. Seriously, this is portfolio material. It shows how much of a great film it is, as well as your excellent editing. The whole sequence with the Thief attempting to steal the balls, Zig-Zag insisting Nod's dream isn't serious, and Tack watching intercut together is terrific. Although, the "I just have this feeling" shot is hilarious because it's so horribly off-model. The attempts to re-create the style of the original backgrounds are laughable too. It makes me wonder if Calvert's people even saw the finished footage.

I love seeing all these details finally... like the Thief's smug look when he finally gets to the golden balls.

And yes, I'll do the Williams Evening multiple times. I got a ton of work to do for classes tonight, but I'm spending any free time getting stuff put together. This rough cut will be just fine for the GBS-TV initial broadcast.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Glad you're digging the rough cut. =) I knew you'd appreciate this package greatly.

It's ridiculous some of the stuff they cut - some of the best animation in the picture. "3-D" sort of stuff. But oh well.

I have a feeling the Maiden from Mombassa scene was cut out of censorship concerns rather than being unfinished. It's in Calvert's first cut. But you're right, it isn't finished. (That never stopped Calvert before - he finished something in most every scene - apart from the Thief stuff which was always finished anyway.)



And yeah, I bet you're right about that print. Seems like just a print off the street.

>>I don't know if this is because of the Japanese DVD, but judging from the fidelity of his voice, they really didn't need to add so much bass.

None of the sound is from the Japanese DVD, it's all from "Princess." I've had to slow down the audio (as the PAL version is sped up), and I lowered the pitch while doing that, very purposely.

In my original workprint, Price's voice sounds a lot lower than in the Miramax cut, which could be due to the poor quality reproduction, as the workprint seems to have more bass fidelity than treble, but I suspect it's more due to Williams' mix, which I quite like - it's more subtle and dreamlike.

So I did lower the pitch of the "Princess" audio a bit, especially since I was using it largely for Price's lines (and Roofless etc). I suspect you've got a better sound system than I do - wonder how it sounds on yours. Hm.
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I used my headphones (great quality Bose, so they're accurate reproducers) and I was really pleased overall. Although, all the workprint audio had a slightly crushed feel (due to compression).

I watched nearly all of it... I'm just blown away by how well you integrated everything. It's just a pity that all this great footage is hidden behind the credits! At least it probably means that all of the 35mm negatives exist somewhere since the superimposition would mean a dupe negative was used. I'm sure they kept all the trims and deleted material archived.


Now I'm going to work on getting it ready for GBS-TV. If you don't mind, I'm going to have tomake some minor changes in order to adapt it for the small resolution Winamp stream. First, I'm going to adjust the contrast a bit in order to take out the blown-out whites to an extent. I've been able to adjust a lot of archive.org stuff and it came out fine.

Second, I'm going to create an intro explaining the history of the film and the different versions. It'll probably run about 8-10 minutes. This way, no one has to be subjected to the awful music numbers in complete form. It'll cover the processes needed to create the Recobbled cut, why animation differs, and comparisons between soundtracks. Sort of like one of those introductions on a Criterion DVD combined with one of their restoration comparisons (for example, there's a 20 min. featurette covering multiple versions of "M" on their 2-disc set). Th

Also, the end credits won't be that legible, so I think I might need to make an alternate end credits (using stills) at the end with only essential items. However, there will be a quick montage of the end titles in the intro as examples of the changes. Would it be possible for you to design a still (or animated if you want) logo for the front for "RICHARD WILLIAMS STUDIO Ltd." to go before the title?

Oh, one more thing... once I finish reconstructing Animating Art, I'll do the same thing with I Drew Roger Rabbit.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick
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Neat that you're doing a little 8-10 minute intro. I had always intended to do a big documentary about the history of the film, from Nasrudin to Aladdin, called "The Animator Who Never Gave Up." I haven't had the time or hard drive space, since I'm editing this myself! By the time I'm finally done I'll probably not go through with the work to do the doc.

What would be great would be a comparison between The Thief and Aladdin. "Cut off your hand if they don't like your face" with the Thief's hands getting chopped off, Zigzag asking for the hand of Yumyum intercut with Jafar doing the same. Abu's eyes doing what The Thief's do ...


Titles ...


I actually originally reproduced the original ending blah "Copyright Richard Williams Animation Ltd." at the end. Except it looked awful, so I took it out.

I've never seen a logo for Richard Williams Studio, animated or otherwise. I figured it'd be enough to call it a Richard Williams Film rather than fake something. I suppose there's material there to work from. It'd probably be Thief related. But it's not something that I see a big need for.

I can send you the actual JPEGs from my credits to blow up or whatever. Stanch needs to be credited just as "Stanch."



>>I'll do the same thing with I Drew Roger Rabbit.

Now that is good news indeed. =)

I didn't really spot much (any) of the same making of footage from I Drew Roger Rabbit on the new DVD documentary, but there are certainly some film clips you can restore (and things which are also in The Thief Who Never Gave Up).

You can also turn the pencil tests black and white so they're not ugly orange.

I've enclosed two different transfers of I Drew Roger Rabbit on your discs. One is from an NTSC source. The better one is converted from a PAL source, but has dropouts in it, and ghosting all over the image. Also, I had to speed up the audio slightly to match the picture, and it lost a lot of quality along the way (strangely). I can send you the original PAL AC3 audio for that.
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Oh my God, another dream shattered... I liked the Raggedy Ann movie as a toddler... I'm shocked by how awful the animation is! It confuses me why Williams' studio was hired in the first place. That's like asking Kubrick to direct the Lifetime movie of the week. Blah!

Also, the pencil tests are facinating. I take it that they were shot directly on PAL video?

Tonight and tomorrow, I'm going to be busy with finishing up some work (college midterms, yay) but I'll have a lot of free time for about a week or two afterwards. I'll get Animating Art and I Drew Roger Rabbit cleaned up and reconstructed. I'll also copy the two docs on RR on Disney's DVD, as well as the trailer.

Basically here's an outline of what I'm putting in the intro:

- Progression over the years
- Visual comparisons (pencil tests, storyboards, finished Williams photography, Calvert inked/painted Williams pencils, brand new animation based on storyboards, totally original sequences, edit differences)
- Audio comparisons (workprint vs. Princess vs. Arabian Knight vs. Calvert workprint, music choices)
- Stuff on the restoration

I'm writing out a script for the narration and I'll post it here before recording it.

However, I'm making it as a companion to The Thief Who Never Gave Up. This way, there's no redundancy and the intro simply puts the Recobbled Cut into perspective.
"I was a perfect idiot to listen to you!"
"Listen here, there ain't nothing in this world that's perfect!"

- from The Bank Dick