Originally posted by: StarWarsIsUs
How does a remake of Return of the Jedi sound?
Just about as bad as any other remake that has been proposed, produced, or released. Don't get me wrong, there's a few good ones, but the rule of thumb is REMAKE==BAD. I don't see why one would want to tempt fate and flout this rule unless one had a very good reason.
Yeah, that was George Lucas's argument, too. It's not done and he needs to "complete it."
So what do you friends think?
How does a remake of Return of the Jedi sound?
Just about as bad as any other remake that has been proposed, produced, or released. Don't get me wrong, there's a few good ones, but the rule of thumb is REMAKE==BAD. I don't see why one would want to tempt fate and flout this rule unless one had a very good reason.
-Han dies in the carbonite.
But ESB established that he survived the freezing process. There was never any question, hint, or suspicion that he would die after being encased in carbonite. Threepio's words were, IIRC, "He should be quite well preserved, if he survived the freezing process, that is." Lando confirmed that Han did, in fact, survive. So he shouldn't die in carbonite.
She can fly, too?
Wait, Ackbar can fly, too? With those big rubbery hands?
(snip)
If best comes to best, or otherwise, we could always simply make a novel-sized story with images to support the theme. Mainly, we want to redo Return of the Jedi to better accomodate logic. The movie of ROTJ was half-assed... we want to go back and complete it, if not redo it as you have seen an example of in the above article.
But ESB established that he survived the freezing process. There was never any question, hint, or suspicion that he would die after being encased in carbonite. Threepio's words were, IIRC, "He should be quite well preserved, if he survived the freezing process, that is." Lando confirmed that Han did, in fact, survive. So he shouldn't die in carbonite.
-Lando is dragged into the Sarlacc pit.
For what purpose? I could maybe see him dying* in order to set things right, karmically, for betraying his friend. There are interesting dramatic possibilities with Han waking up, still hating Lando, while everyone around him is in mourning for the heroic Baron-Administrator. But if you kill Lando -- after killing Han -- then you've turned the rescue operation into a big bloodbath that accomplishes nothing. You're left with Leia writing in her diary, "Well, my boyfriend's dead, and my new friend Lando is dead because we tried to save my boyfriend, not knowing he was dead, and I got repeatedly raped by a Hutt, but we did manage to kill lots of people today!"
* Of course, people who fall into the Pit of Carkoon are not really dead, they're in torment for a thousand years as they're slowly digested. This just puts them in a Schroedinger's Cat box, from which a future writer can retrieve them alive at any point, or decline to retrieve them and treat them as dead, viz. Boba Fett.
Unless you have a string of sequels planned, introducing a new character as Luke's sister (and, I suppose, the Other that Yoda spoke of) is wrong in so many ways. Mainly because Leia as his sister was right in so many ways. It provided closure, healing (Luke lost a father but gained a sister), and new meaning to the two previous films. It elegantly resolved a love triangle by turning it into classic comedy at the very moment when such levity was appropriate, if not much-needed. I think, if you want to take all that away and call it an improvement, you need to justify it.
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-Battle of Endor.
-Luke goes to Death Star, etc.
-Leena, Chewy, and Ackbar lead X-Wings against Death Star, and destroy it.
For what purpose? I could maybe see him dying* in order to set things right, karmically, for betraying his friend. There are interesting dramatic possibilities with Han waking up, still hating Lando, while everyone around him is in mourning for the heroic Baron-Administrator. But if you kill Lando -- after killing Han -- then you've turned the rescue operation into a big bloodbath that accomplishes nothing. You're left with Leia writing in her diary, "Well, my boyfriend's dead, and my new friend Lando is dead because we tried to save my boyfriend, not knowing he was dead, and I got repeatedly raped by a Hutt, but we did manage to kill lots of people today!"
* Of course, people who fall into the Pit of Carkoon are not really dead, they're in torment for a thousand years as they're slowly digested. This just puts them in a Schroedinger's Cat box, from which a future writer can retrieve them alive at any point, or decline to retrieve them and treat them as dead, viz. Boba Fett.
-Luke and Leia begin their relationship together.
That's so creepy.
Translator? All he can do is growl. Is he supposed to translate Wookie A to Wookie B? Maybe he could translate the archaic Old Church Wookie spoken by the Wookie Patriarch into Modern Standard Wookie. Of course, the only person left alive who can understand Chewie is C-3PO, given that Han is dead. And Threepio can translate well enough without Chewie; he is fluent in over six million forms of communication.
I mean, really, Chewie as a translator?
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-Luke feels the force drawing him towards a nearby village of humans.
-Finds Leena, and tells her of who she truly is, after hearing the voice of Obi-Wan telling him that he is right indeed, and that she is his sister.
That's so creepy.
-Wookies on Endor, with Chewy as the peacemaker, help the Rebel Alliance.
-Leena, Luke's sister, is found on Endor, on a human settlement.
Why is there a human settlement on Endor? First of all, what do you mean by Endor?
The filmic Endor is a sanctuary world, inhabited by a primitive people. There is no commerce there, no communication, no interest whatsoever in the Endor system by the galactic community. That's why the Death Star II was built there. It was a secret military project, so they did it out in the middle of nowhere.
If you add Wookies, you make things a bit more complex. Wookies -- at least, every one in the trilogy up to this point -- are a spacefaring race. They travel the galaxy. It would be hard to keep a secret from the entire galaxy (modulo several Bothans and the Rebel Alliance) if your secret is being built in orbit of a member world of the galactic community.
We might be able to fix this by making the Wookies primitives (taller Ewoks), or making the entire Wookie system a forbidden zone like Soviet military towns. But adding in a human settlement throws another monkeywrench (Wookiespanner?) into the works. By this point, the Death Star might as well not be a secret project at all. And if it's not a secret, you can build it where it will be more plainly visible, say, in orbit of Coruscant (or Had Abaddon) where it will serve as a potent symbol for the Imperial Potentate.
That sounds like a euphemism. "No, Artoo, Master Luke can't see you right now. He and Mistress Leia are in their quarters, beginning a relationsip." Sister or no, it's still creepy.
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-They travel to Endor, etc. Epic (and classic) speeder battle in the forests of the moon.
- They meet up with Wookies, and Chewy serves as a translator of sorts, and gets them to join.
-Leena, Luke's sister, is found on Endor, on a human settlement.
Why is there a human settlement on Endor? First of all, what do you mean by Endor?
The filmic Endor is a sanctuary world, inhabited by a primitive people. There is no commerce there, no communication, no interest whatsoever in the Endor system by the galactic community. That's why the Death Star II was built there. It was a secret military project, so they did it out in the middle of nowhere.
If you add Wookies, you make things a bit more complex. Wookies -- at least, every one in the trilogy up to this point -- are a spacefaring race. They travel the galaxy. It would be hard to keep a secret from the entire galaxy (modulo several Bothans and the Rebel Alliance) if your secret is being built in orbit of a member world of the galactic community.
We might be able to fix this by making the Wookies primitives (taller Ewoks), or making the entire Wookie system a forbidden zone like Soviet military towns. But adding in a human settlement throws another monkeywrench (Wookiespanner?) into the works. By this point, the Death Star might as well not be a secret project at all. And if it's not a secret, you can build it where it will be more plainly visible, say, in orbit of Coruscant (or Had Abaddon) where it will serve as a potent symbol for the Imperial Potentate.
-Yoda did not die in ROTJ. He lived long enough afterwards, even to train Luke's children in the ways of the Jedi.
Now, here are some things that are of an 'Expanded Universe'. I will add on to them if I get enough replies to this thread.
-Leia sneaks away at night, while Luke is sleeping. She boards the Millenium Falcon, on the Rebel ship that was seen at the end of ESB (forgot name), and takes Lando and Chewy with her, who were taking room in the Falcon.
I'm a bit confused about the timeline. Lando and Chewie left with the Falcon just as Luke's recovery was ending, promising to contact Leia when they found Boba Fett. It must've taken them at least a day or two to get eyes on their target -- either in the official version or yours. Then maybe another day to communicate with the Rebel Alliance, locate Leia, and move to her position. I don't see the Senator from Alderaan, the Princess Leia Organa hanging around on a hospital ship waiting for the Falcon to get back. If nothing else, she would've felt bad that she was taking resources needed by injured comrades and moved to another ship (possibly Home One).
So I guess you're for removing the dialogue that establishes the Pit as a place of torture, not immediate death? If Jabba just wants to kill people, why doesn't he simply shoot them? That's not his style. Jabba wants to see people die, or know that they're somewhere uncomfortable marking month number two of a thousand year sentence. Pushing them down a hole isn't his style.
-During the fight, Leia chokes Jabba with the chain tide to her.
-Luke, Leia, Chewy, escape barely.
----------------
-They go the a Rebel spaceship, and attend the meeting on the new plans to destroy the Death Star.
-That night, Luke and Leia begin a relationship.
Now, here are some things that are of an 'Expanded Universe'. I will add on to them if I get enough replies to this thread.
-Leia sneaks away at night, while Luke is sleeping. She boards the Millenium Falcon, on the Rebel ship that was seen at the end of ESB (forgot name), and takes Lando and Chewy with her, who were taking room in the Falcon.
I'm a bit confused about the timeline. Lando and Chewie left with the Falcon just as Luke's recovery was ending, promising to contact Leia when they found Boba Fett. It must've taken them at least a day or two to get eyes on their target -- either in the official version or yours. Then maybe another day to communicate with the Rebel Alliance, locate Leia, and move to her position. I don't see the Senator from Alderaan, the Princess Leia Organa hanging around on a hospital ship waiting for the Falcon to get back. If nothing else, she would've felt bad that she was taking resources needed by injured comrades and moved to another ship (possibly Home One).
-They agree to try to save Han Solo, from Jabba, on the planet Geonosh. There, he has a hidden hideout that few know of. Lando knows of the hideout.
-Imperial ships follow the Falcon from a great distance. Leia, Lando, Chewy break into the hideout. There is a small battle. Leia quickly goes and unmelts Han, and finds out that he died while frozen. Jabba's henchman capture them, locking Lando and Chewy in the dungeons below the hideout. Leia is left to be the slave of Jabba.
We've already seen the following-the-Falcon-at-a-distance trick. And ANH pretty firmly established that no one follows the Falcon when her hyperdrive is working correctly. Not your local bulk cruisers, and not even the big Corellian ships.
When did the Imperials get so good at tracking people down and following them? They couldn't even locate any of Leia's cell without scouring the galaxy with probe droids in ESB, and now they seem to be one step ahead of the game at every turn.
-Imperial Stormtroopers come. There is a large battle. During the battle, Lando falls into pit, tries to get back out, but a tentacle grabs him and drags him down, where he undoubtedly dies.
-Imperial ships follow the Falcon from a great distance. Leia, Lando, Chewy break into the hideout. There is a small battle. Leia quickly goes and unmelts Han, and finds out that he died while frozen. Jabba's henchman capture them, locking Lando and Chewy in the dungeons below the hideout. Leia is left to be the slave of Jabba.
We've already seen the following-the-Falcon-at-a-distance trick. And ANH pretty firmly established that no one follows the Falcon when her hyperdrive is working correctly. Not your local bulk cruisers, and not even the big Corellian ships.
-Luke sees these images in a dream, and gets aboard his X-Wing. The Imperial ships track him down, and follow him to the hideout. When he gets there, Lando and Chewy are about to be thrown into the Sarlacc pit, and Leia is chained to Jabba.
When did the Imperials get so good at tracking people down and following them? They couldn't even locate any of Leia's cell without scouring the galaxy with probe droids in ESB, and now they seem to be one step ahead of the game at every turn.
-Imperial Stormtroopers come. There is a large battle. During the battle, Lando falls into pit, tries to get back out, but a tentacle grabs him and drags him down, where he undoubtedly dies.
So I guess you're for removing the dialogue that establishes the Pit as a place of torture, not immediate death? If Jabba just wants to kill people, why doesn't he simply shoot them? That's not his style. Jabba wants to see people die, or know that they're somewhere uncomfortable marking month number two of a thousand year sentence. Pushing them down a hole isn't his style.
-During the fight, Leia chokes Jabba with the chain tide to her.
-Luke, Leia, Chewy, escape barely.
----------------
-They go the a Rebel spaceship, and attend the meeting on the new plans to destroy the Death Star.
-That night, Luke and Leia begin a relationship.
That sounds like a euphemism. "No, Artoo, Master Luke can't see you right now. He and Mistress Leia are in their quarters, beginning a relationsip." Sister or no, it's still creepy.
----------------
-They travel to Endor, etc. Epic (and classic) speeder battle in the forests of the moon.
- They meet up with Wookies, and Chewy serves as a translator of sorts, and gets them to join.
Translator? All he can do is growl. Is he supposed to translate Wookie A to Wookie B? Maybe he could translate the archaic Old Church Wookie spoken by the Wookie Patriarch into Modern Standard Wookie. Of course, the only person left alive who can understand Chewie is C-3PO, given that Han is dead. And Threepio can translate well enough without Chewie; he is fluent in over six million forms of communication.
I mean, really, Chewie as a translator?
----------------
-Luke feels the force drawing him towards a nearby village of humans.
-Finds Leena, and tells her of who she truly is, after hearing the voice of Obi-Wan telling him that he is right indeed, and that she is his sister.
Unless you have a string of sequels planned, introducing a new character as Luke's sister (and, I suppose, the Other that Yoda spoke of) is wrong in so many ways. Mainly because Leia as his sister was right in so many ways. It provided closure, healing (Luke lost a father but gained a sister), and new meaning to the two previous films. It elegantly resolved a love triangle by turning it into classic comedy at the very moment when such levity was appropriate, if not much-needed. I think, if you want to take all that away and call it an improvement, you need to justify it.
----------------
-Battle of Endor.
-Luke goes to Death Star, etc.
-Leena, Chewy, and Ackbar lead X-Wings against Death Star, and destroy it.
She can fly, too?
Wait, Ackbar can fly, too? With those big rubbery hands?
(snip)
If best comes to best, or otherwise, we could always simply make a novel-sized story with images to support the theme. Mainly, we want to redo Return of the Jedi to better accomodate logic. The movie of ROTJ was half-assed... we want to go back and complete it, if not redo it as you have seen an example of in the above article.
Yeah, that was George Lucas's argument, too. It's not done and he needs to "complete it."
So what do you friends think?
I got angry when George added Coruscant, all the way back in 1997. (Thanks, Mr. Allston, for helping me laugh at that!) If I don't think George should be fooling around with Return of the Jedi anymore, well ....