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Time to grow up. — Page 2

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Oh... so just the same old same, huh... I thought it was something interesting.
He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

http://prequelsstink.ytmnd.com/
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"Yet cockpit lightspeed views are saved for the OT..."

Calm yourself. They couldn't even replicate this effect for the OT DVD, never mind an actual feature film. It would've sucked if they used it again; it shouldn't suck, it's a great idea, but in the implementation, someone would've boned it up.
VADER: Let me look on you with my own eyes...

LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0
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That must be the real reason (just forgot how to do it.) Although several great people here could probably do it with their eyes closed if they wanted to.
He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

http://prequelsstink.ytmnd.com/
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Originally posted by: Jay
What the hell is going on?

I've read a lot of crap today, and this is the first time in a long time I've questioned the value of my work in maintaining this place and busting my ass on the redesign. This is the most childish garbage I've seen posted here--ever. I'm now beginning to understand the lousy reputation this forum has developed in the fan community. If I had stumbled across this board recently, I can't say I would've bothered to sign up.

Some of you are going to point your fingers at a certain member. I see a lot of namecalling on both sides and not one of you involved in this little playground altercation can claim to be in the right. Calling someone a dickhead because they like the prequels is unacceptable. Sending PMs with your insults so you can appear respectful in public is unacceptable.

I've always preferred a hands-off approach to forum moderation, believing people can work out their differences given enough time and discussion, but it doesn't seem to be working in this case.

All personal attacks stop now. This includes public posts and private messages. Personal attacks will result in your removal.

No exceptions. No excuses. No warnings.


Jay, I'm a long-time "lurker". I wanted to say something, but I don't know in what forum it would belong most. First off, I think it's great you're dedicated enough to have a website and forum here, so please don't get me wrong. When people can come together for what they believe in - I think it's beautiful.

My question is why is there so much piracy on these forums? It seems here just about every popular movie is going the rounds in piracy. By piracy I mean copying. OK, I understand copying the O-OT, because that can't be bought. But it seems here people will copy any movie, and trade it around, in unauthorized fan-edits. And that is piracy, and I cannot see why Lucasfilm, Fox or any studio wouldn't be outraged by this kind of behavior.

I can't see why director's wouldn't be outraged, and maybe write so on their official websites. Because they sell us movies to enjoy, not to pick apart, edit, and copy all we like.

Oh one other question. Don't you think that by having piracy on your forums it harms your lobbying for official release of the O-OT, when companies see what you do to theatrical cuts that they do release to you?
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Well, I don't think that the distribution of fan-edits and never-released-on-DVD material is really piracy. There aren't any exact copies of products that have been released on DVD, here.
Ok, all that is unauthorized, and using copyrighted material, but it's just re-edits or preservation. And I really think that people who download re-edits or original versions DVDs made here (SW or not), have the official releases at home (what could be the point to download alternate versions if we don't have the "official" one?). And all that is really not made for a large public...
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DarkFox, I see your point about drawing studio and director ire for splicing up their work and changing it, and it's something I've been giving a lot of thought lately.

The fan edit community in this forum sprung up as a natural extension of trying to preserve the OT when they realized Star Wars isn't the only material that would benefit from fan preservation efforts and fan edits. As far as I know, the only reason people are ripping things is to edit them. I don't know about any sales taking place, and if I were to find out someone is using this forum as a vehicle to sell a fan edit or OT laserdisc rip, they'd be banned. Immediately.

While these forums are free and I started this site as a service, it is a business now, so I do have legitimate concerns about the content of the preservation forums and what some very powerful and well-funded attorneys could do to put me out of business. Even though I don't endorse the sales of fan edits or even the possession of fan edits by people who don't own the original versions, originaltrilogy.com could be sued for enabling the trafficking of such material, whether or not there's proof of malicious intent on my part.

The preservation forums are the lifeblood of this site at the moment, and anything that curtails their growth curtails the growth of this site and my business. The irony is that the fan edit community could also someday end up causing the site's demise.
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Thanks for replying. This is one of the reasons that prevents me from being an active member of this community here. Some forum members I saw were talking about acquiring copies of a workprint of a bond film that was never released to the public. Just because this kind of thing hasn't been released doesn't mean that copying it isn't piracy, because you're copying something that was never intended for release. In the same way, copying fan edits is also something that is piracy because you're copying something that was never intended for release, regardless of if you actually own the movie. I don't feel that a transaction has to take place for piracy to occur. Another example I saw was someone inserted a newly filmed scene, based on a deleted scene, into the 1933 king kong movie, and people were asking for copies of that. If I remember correctly members here were also asking for copies of the colourized king kong, which is available to buy legally. All this kind of thing really goes against my grain - as does any unauthorized fan edit. Because fan edits take others work, as if the fan himself actually owns that work, and then releases it without any authority, and without any legitimate argument to "preservation".

On the other hand you've got several members who have completed projects to preserve the original trilogy, and possibly other films - and some have ongoing projects. And this king of thing, while it's still quite obviously illegal, I think is okay - but not if that by doing it it has opened the doorway to all other kinds of piracy that I see here now. Now it seems that you, as well as many other forum members, feel it's okay to rip and distribute something, if you're editing it. Put more directly, you seem to endorse it. I understand you feel it's a natural extension to what you call preservation, but I'm not so sure. Let me give you an example, there's a classic Australian song by Rolf Harris called Tie Me Kangaroo Down. At some point in time, Rolf Harris removed one of his verses, it went like this:

Let me Abos go loose, Lou,
Let me Abos go loose.
They're of no further use, Lou,
So let me Abos go loose.

Now I have the original version of the song - that includes that line. I would have no reservations about copying it for others, in the interests of preserving it in its original form. I know the verse is very racist, but I didn't write the song, and I don't believe in censorship, so I feel it would be preserving his song, before he edited it - pretty much the same thing you do here if you copy the "pre-SE" or "O-OT" star wars films for others - you're preserving it in its original form. On the other hand I would find it offensive if someone decided to make their own version of Tie Me Kangaroo Down by removing a different verse from the song.

Maybe I'm not making sense, but basically I feel that you're going to offend people, directors, and studios more if you edit films into fan edits, or release unreleased pre-theatrical cuts of the film, then if all you're doing is preserving them. It feels like you're either lost the plot, or that you're just more interested in getting what you want then you are in preserving what others did. Just a point of interest, there are very few copied films I own. One is Scream: Director's Cut. It was copied from the japaneese release. Now, under normal circumstances I am happy to purchase DVD's from overseas, say America or Britain, if a version of the film is released there that is unavailable here. The point that stopped me doing this, is the cost was the equilivant of $80 (Australian) at the time to buy the Scream DVD from a jap online store, excluding postage costs. Note that this is a copy of something that I could have legally bought, regardless of the price tag. I now know that there is also a German release of the director's cut, which I've not investigated. I've not investigated it because it's not important to me. I own a legal copy of the theatrical cut, and a perfectly fine DVD-R of the director's cut. You may find the same thing will happen if the O-OT is released officially, people may be happy with the LD or DE-SE'd DVD copies they have, they may be happy with fan edits they consider better then the O-OT, or they may just feel because they own a SE they don't have to buy the O-OT. All of this is going to mean bad business for the studios.
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Since Lucas has already said he has no problem with--and even finds interesting--fan edits of the prequels, I hardly consider fan edits a concern, at least for Star Wars films. If other directors squawk, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

As far as people requesting materials that can be purchased at retail, such as the colorized King Kong you mention, I don't endorse that behavior and would promptly lock any thread with such a request and ban any members offering it, whether they ask for money or not.

As long as fan edits remain a purely creative exercise that brings the community together, I won't interfere with the process.
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Originally posted by: Jay
As long as fan edits remain a purely creative exercise that brings the community together, I won't interfere with the process.
The question that remains is what kind of community does it bring together? Whatever the answer, it's one I'm not comfortable to be associated with.
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Since Lucas has already said he has no problem with--and even finds interesting--fan edits of the prequels, I hardly consider fan edits a concern, at least for Star Wars films. If other directors squawk, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Exactly. That's why I think that I'm perfectly safe with my Episode II SOTDS project. How can Lucasfilm object when Lucas has said things like "The Internet is a new medium. It's all about doing stuff like that". The representative said, "Go be creative."

That's isn't just OK-ing it- that's endorsing it. I don't see any problem with that, at least.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Originally posted by: DarkFox
The question that remains is what kind of community does it bring together? Whatever the answer, it's one I'm not comfortable to be associated with.


And that is one of the many joys of freedom of choice. If one is not comfortable associating, then one should not associate. Nor is one forced to. There are thousands of other sites on the web just waiting to be explored... the choice is yours and yours alone.
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Originally posted by: DarkFox
Originally posted by: Jay
As long as fan edits remain a purely creative exercise that brings the community together, I won't interfere with the process.
The question that remains is what kind of community does it bring together?


A very, very creative one, with far more positive results than negative. Legal or not, I don't see the harm of fan edits.

I'd like to voice my respect for Lucas on this issue. I disagree strongly with his decision to modify the original trilogy, but he has a progressive view of the web and what it means for creativity.

Did you know Lucas started out by making his own edits of Hollywood films? What if someone had come along and slapped him down then? Would A New Hope, which is a prime example of a film made better because of really good editing, have served as the seed for the entire Star Wars universe without Lucas' early experimentation?

Do you work for the MPAA? You seem to have adopted their logic: cut down the apple tree because a few of the apples are rotten. I suggest you visit one of the hundreds of dull, non-innovative Star Wars communities out there if this community makes you uncomfortable.
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If you truly are passionate about something in your life, sometimes you tend to ignore the consequences created by it. I applaude the people saving original films, on the other hand making something for a fast buck without royalites being paid or agreements signed will bring in the lawyers eventually. I personally have had everything from super-8 to editted CD-R, and I feel I have paid for these correctly. The Legacy site is a great example of a person following their bliss, Mike didn't see the film premier in 77', but I share his passion for "the real thing". I've said it on another thread- SW is burned into my brain from opening day, first showing, my stuff, my passion. If we all didn't feel like this, there would be no trilogy forum. Thanks.
LOOK OUT!
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If that's the case....

I'm outta here. I have better things to do with my time then to waste my time on forums plagued by piracy.
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Well, I do hope placing yourself on the high horse of unflawed morality in a public forum that is actively visited by no one else but 'pirates', made you feel better.
I just want to remind you that accusing a whole community of forum users of actively pursuing piracy is not really any better by moral standards. Here in germany you can get sued for false accusations.
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Well said, MSD. Speaking as a lawyer, piracy exists only when people are subverting the legitimate means of production for their own gain, monetary or otherwise. If we had a bunch of people on here selling fan edits like this was eBay, we'd have a problem. If people were specifically saying, "Don't buy the legitimate DVD releases; I'll sell you my fan edits," we'd have a problem.

Personally, I like this community and most of the people I've gotten to know through it. A few rotten apples will come through now and again, but that's no reason to put an end to the community.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: DarkFox
If that's the case....

I'm outta here. I have better things to do with my time then to waste my time on forums plagued by piracy.


Ho shit looks like I've missed him, just as I was going to tell him/her 'to go fuck themselves'
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My recommendation would be to get off the Internet altogether. Far more subversive things than piracy take place throughout the internet, and it should make you uncomfortable to be associated with with these things. But thanks for stopping in.








Troll.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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wow you knwo i never really did realize just how far this forum had fallen, man oh man, wow. here we have a guy who comes in and peacefully and nicely discusses his feelings about the site, and what do we get from the members "go F*ck yourself" man oh man, i really do wonder where this site went wrong.

i really cant wait for you to make the change jay cause i want to remember OT.com as the place it was, where we had good talks in the SW threads, where people would post fan fiction and what not and go from there, i still think one of the best memories i have of this site was reading rebels revised screenplays of ep 1, or some of the naming threads b4 ep 3 was released. now all i see is people whining about how the PT sucked, and how lucas sucks, and how every movie that comes out sucks and how peoples lives are ruined cause someone made a movie. its jsut wa wa wa all day long about how shit happened and people cant deal with it. its just getting rediculas.

so plz jay change the site as fast as you can, cause the scenery doesnt match the atmosphere, and the atmosphere is starting to ruin the scenery.
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Shimm. I have noticed an upsurge in "ZOMG! LUCA$$ IS TEH SUXXORZ!!!!1" It'll pass, forum drama is cyclical. We just happen to be on the up-stroke of the drama cycle.

Personally, I like 90% of the SE changes, and I don't mind the Prequels or Special editions. The SE's are a way to see how far film has come in 20 years, when compared with the originals. As long as the originals are there to be seen. The lengths that this board has gone to preserve a classic film is just astonishing. This is one of the best online communities I've seen. The saddening fact is that the more extreme elements here are causing everybody to become more and more jaded to newcomers, and causing this community to close in on itself. Once this drama-cycle closes, the forum

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

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i donno in all my long years at this forum 2 and half years, i have never seen as much crap as i see today, infact i see more crap in the last 4 months then i saw in the previous 2 years on this forum combined. i have no ill will against those that want the OT on DVD, i do have a problem with people who are pretty much ruining the rep of this site with there pointless banter of how lucas is a jackass and there lives are ruined cause he changed a few scenes. liek take a look at the SW discussion right now. i bet you that 75% all the threads on the first page is pointless banter about one things thats wrong or another things thats messed up, and just complaining and more complaining and more complaining, rather then some usefull talk, some nice fan fiction, talking about things to come. if you hate the new stuff so much then why think about them. move on and talking aobut something that you dont hate.
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
wow you knwo i never really did realize just how far this forum had fallen, man oh man, wow. here we have a guy who comes in and peacefully and nicely discusses his feelings about the site, and what do we get from the members "go F*ck yourself" man oh man, i really do wonder where this site went wrong.

i really cant wait for you to make the change jay cause i want to remember OT.com as the place it was, where we had good talks in the SW threads, where people would post fan fiction and what not and go from there, i still think one of the best memories i have of this site was reading rebels revised screenplays of ep 1, or some of the naming threads b4 ep 3 was released. now all i see is people whining about how the PT sucked, and how lucas sucks, and how every movie that comes out sucks and how peoples lives are ruined cause someone made a movie. its jsut wa wa wa all day long about how shit happened and people cant deal with it. its just getting rediculas.

so plz jay change the site as fast as you can, cause the scenery doesnt match the atmosphere, and the atmosphere is starting to ruin the scenery.

Well said Shim. I only hang out in the off-topic section now for those very reasons.

War does not make one great.

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Uuuuhh... Hello? He may have discussed peacefully. But in the end he walked outta here insulting anyone on this board to be involved in movie piracy.
I don't know about you, but if I get insulted without a reason - I get angry. And only because one person was provoked enough to say the "f" word, you come along and insult all the good people on here again?!
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And yes even though DarkFox's post were well written (and compared to many I've seen they *were* well written if not well intoned) they still had an inflammatory nature to them them that pre-judged this site and everyone on it. And not only were his views seemingly contradictory but they also quickly escalated into almost outright threats towards Jay and the forums here in general. There's a BIG difference between expressing your opinion and making pretentious balnket statements. And like many people have pointed out there are several different areas of this forum and no one either has to A) Visit the forums AT ALL or B) frequent any one area of the fourm at all. And by my reckoning the only areas of this forum that discusses either preservation projects OR fan edits are the areas that are CLEARLY MARKED. As has been stated if you don't like the 'General Star Wars' section either don't visit it or try and contribute to it in a way that encourages better discussion. I personally do both- if a thread/area gets too idiotic I look elsewhere. But the *strength* of the overall community keeps me coming back.

Perhaps on the new site there will need to be further forum areas such as Pro-PT areas. But keep in mind in the meantime that this site was founded by and initially populated by people who FOR the release of the OOT and as such *many* (not all as I don't make blanket statements) of those people were *against* changes (makes sense) and *many* of the people who were against changes were more than likely dedicated fans of the OOT. From that one can make the logical deduction that the *majority* of *those* people would approach the PT with a much higher level of criticism than the general public or more casual SW fans- hence more bitching about it. Now bitching, when done with thought behind it and when trying to constructively add certain points, is perfectly fine and sometimes downright fun. When bitching turns to 'Lucas is a$$' (as it was for quite some time) it just is juvenile and annoying- and best avoided. But if one's only reason for avoiding the 'General Star Wars' area is PT bashing then one may be at the wrong SW forum. I look at it like this- we all have our opinions. But its just as annoying to have someone blindly *defend* something as much as it is to have them stupidly *argue* something. What pisses me off is when ANY part of the forums start to be idiotic PERSONAL attacks on each other. I *personally* think the PT are steaming cinematic turds but I would NEVER tell another member that because they like them that means THEY are steaming human turds. Trust me- I like quite a few cinematic turds. But I just do. And I don't get offended when other people don't. In fact, outside of the little geek community we have here, the vast majority of the world seems to enjoy the turds the that Hollywood monkeys fling at us every week.

That said, there's just as many poo-flinging monkeys in the 'Off Topic' section as there is in the 'General Star Wars' section. Oh it may be different monkeys and different poo but the effect is the same. Remember that like any online venture what we do here is make-believe. Seriously. I know it may not feel like but it truly is. Very few of us will ever have contact with each other in real life. Most of us have no idea what each other does in real life, what we look like, etc. There is no 'ownership' on the net, or at least only so much as any one idividual puts forwards. So everything one reads, see, hears, smells or tastes online has to be taken with a grain of salt as they say. Just try to have a good time. And like I said in a previous post here we all have freedom of choice to be here or to be anywhere. The only time the poo-flinging monkeys win is when we LET THEM WIN. They crave easy targets to aim their poo at and when we run away screaming from ANY poo-flinger all we do is get poo on our backsides. And I for one can't stand poo on my backside.
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Well said, Greencapt. Now pass the Charmin.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.