Plinkett's Prequel reviews — Page 3

NFBisms said:

The Jedi ain’t even that serious about the no attachments thing if we take the text(s) seriously and really look at how the Jedi treat it. What are the consequences, really, of a Jedi having attachments? It’s having a 100 rules knowing everyone will break at least 1, and everyone will have their 1. Where it breaks for the few, you can massage with extra discipline and targeted tutelage, but the rule keeps the others in line. And ultimately, there’s really nothing the council can do either way. It’s really an aspirational standard, not requisite. Something to seek, lifelong, not attain. That’s a pretty reasonable takeaway from what is intended with the depiction IMO.

In canon and EU lore, prequel era Jedi are breaking the rule all the time to little or no consequence. You become a librarian or farmer Jedi, I guess? They don’t even want people leaving really – though even that is allowed to happen.

And outside the realm of breaking rules, it’s also just true that the Jedi have comradery with one another - bonds and friendships. Amongst themselves, but then even with senators, or people they serve. Yoda and Mace can have a soft spot for even a former Jedi like Dooku as a friend at the start of AOTC, and never flinch in discussions of Obi-Wan and Anakin’s own bond. They’re surely aware of their own. It’s not hypocrisy under the lens presented above.

None of this has to exclude material critiques of the Jedi, or that their rules played a role in Anakin’s fall! Because to Anakin, there was personal consequence - his own desire to be accepted by them, to be recognized by them. That is selfish, and centers the Jedi path as hierarchical. His love for Padme is as forbidden as it can allow him to become a true blue Jedi, the “possessive love” often discussed doesn’t actually emerge until after he’s committed to the dark path.

If the Jedi Order as a concept are being dissected by the prequels, I think looking at “repression”, religion, or cultish dogma is the wrong conversation. There’s more going on re: establishment ineffectuality and pedagogy.

Well said. Even just going from what’s shown in the movies, Obi-Wan himself likes to go out drinking and hanging out with friends. I think the “weird” sterility people read into it comes partly from the set design and the weird pervasive blend of CG with stuff made to look CG.

SparkySywer said:
I think it’s interesting that you’ve brought this up in a small handful of different threads in the past month or so, on top of having a longer conversation about this subject on the PT gen discussion thread.

Vladius said:
It’s always relevant because that’s what everyone talks about

NFBisms said:

The Jedi ain’t even that serious about the no attachments thing if we take the text(s) seriously and really look at how the Jedi treat it. What are the consequences, really, of a Jedi having attachments? It’s having a 100 rules knowing everyone will break at least 1, and everyone will have their 1. Where it breaks for the few, you can massage with extra discipline and targeted tutelage, but the rule keeps the others in line. And ultimately, there’s really nothing the council can do either way. It’s really an aspirational standard, not requisite. Something to seek, lifelong, not attain. That’s a pretty reasonable takeaway from what is intended with the depiction IMO.

In canon and EU lore, prequel era Jedi are breaking the rule all the time to little or no consequence. You become a librarian or farmer Jedi, I guess? They don’t even want people leaving really – though even that is allowed to happen.

And outside the realm of breaking rules, it’s also just true that the Jedi have comradery with one another - bonds and friendships. Amongst themselves, but then even with senators, or people they serve. Yoda and Mace can have a soft spot for even a former Jedi like Dooku as a friend at the start of AOTC, and never flinch in discussions of Obi-Wan and Anakin’s own bond. They’re surely aware of their own. It’s not hypocrisy under the lens presented above.

Servii said:
In my experience, there are two stances you’ll see among prequel stans. Either “Yes, the Jedi are meant to be emotionally repressive, and that’s intentional and part of the point,” or “No, the Jedi aren’t repressive. They’re only against selfish emotions. You just didn’t understand what George was going for.”

I actually fall into neither, but a middle ground, one I think TCW series operates in: The Jedi rules against attachment make sense, the Jedi don’t forbid connection and caring about other or love, as I think attachment and connection/love are different things. Also, the Jedi are flawed individuals who allowed their disconnection from others in pursuit of detachment to blind them to what was happening around them with Anakin. The scene between Anakin and Yoda isn’t showing Yoda as flawed, to me, because Yoda telling Luke to let people go is bad, but because Yoda is so out of touch with connections he doesn’t understand that what he’s telling Anakin won’t get through to him, nor does he understand Anakin’s emotions about this. To use TCW as an example of this, in season 6, Obi-Wan says to Anakin, “It’s not that we’re not allowed to have these feelings. It’s natural.”

To me, the Jedi were flawed, not necessarily because of their no attachment rule, but because of their arrogance, fear, disconnection from the people, their attachment to the Republic and their engagement in war and violence, them compromising in pursuit of stopping something. Their arrogance and compromising and fear is what I think more directly implied in the movies. I think TCW plays on those things, as well as more into the engagement in war and attachment to the Republic angle.

Compromising is what I think Luke ultimately chooses not to do in ROTJ, not compromise and not allow his connections to be used to manipulate him, not making the mistakes of the older Jedi, as exemplified in Mace Windu to me and also not allow his connections and fear to be used to manipulate him.

I like the Plinkett Reviews. I think I remember watching the original 10 minute video segments, and we had to wait a week or two for the next segment to be released? They hold up quite well.

It is good to see them still going strong, and they branched out into the ReViews, Half in the Bag, fun quizzes, specials and retrospectives. The latest fun Star Wars quiz was good.

Dagenspear said:

SparkySywer said:
I think it’s interesting that you’ve brought this up in a small handful of different threads in the past month or so, on top of having a longer conversation about this subject on the PT gen discussion thread.

Vladius said:
It’s always relevant because that’s what everyone talks about

NFBisms said:

The Jedi ain’t even that serious about the no attachments thing if we take the text(s) seriously and really look at how the Jedi treat it. What are the consequences, really, of a Jedi having attachments? It’s having a 100 rules knowing everyone will break at least 1, and everyone will have their 1. Where it breaks for the few, you can massage with extra discipline and targeted tutelage, but the rule keeps the others in line. And ultimately, there’s really nothing the council can do either way. It’s really an aspirational standard, not requisite. Something to seek, lifelong, not attain. That’s a pretty reasonable takeaway from what is intended with the depiction IMO.

In canon and EU lore, prequel era Jedi are breaking the rule all the time to little or no consequence. You become a librarian or farmer Jedi, I guess? They don’t even want people leaving really – though even that is allowed to happen.

And outside the realm of breaking rules, it’s also just true that the Jedi have comradery with one another - bonds and friendships. Amongst themselves, but then even with senators, or people they serve. Yoda and Mace can have a soft spot for even a former Jedi like Dooku as a friend at the start of AOTC, and never flinch in discussions of Obi-Wan and Anakin’s own bond. They’re surely aware of their own. It’s not hypocrisy under the lens presented above.

Servii said:
In my experience, there are two stances you’ll see among prequel stans. Either “Yes, the Jedi are meant to be emotionally repressive, and that’s intentional and part of the point,” or “No, the Jedi aren’t repressive. They’re only against selfish emotions. You just didn’t understand what George was going for.”

I actually fall into neither, but a middle ground, one I think TCW series operates in: The Jedi rules against attachment make sense, the Jedi don’t forbid connection and caring about other or love, as I think attachment and connection/love are different things. Also, the Jedi are flawed individuals who allowed their disconnection from others in pursuit of detachment to blind them to what was happening around them with Anakin. The scene between Anakin and Yoda isn’t showing Yoda as flawed, to me, because Yoda telling Luke to let people go is bad, but because Yoda is so out of touch with connections he doesn’t understand that what he’s telling Anakin won’t get through to him, nor does he understand Anakin’s emotions about this. To use TCW as an example of this, in season 6, Obi-Wan says to Anakin, “It’s not that we’re not allowed to have these feelings. It’s natural.”

To me, the Jedi were flawed, not necessarily because of their no attachment rule, but because of their arrogance, fear, disconnection from the people, their attachment to the Republic and their engagement in war and violence, them compromising in pursuit of stopping something. Their arrogance and compromising and fear is what I think more directly implied in the movies. I think TCW plays on those things, as well as more into the engagement in war and attachment to the Republic angle.

Compromising is what I think Luke ultimately chooses not to do in ROTJ, not compromise and not allow his connections to be used to manipulate him, not making the mistakes of the older Jedi, as exemplified in Mace Windu to me and also not allow his connections and fear to be used to manipulate him.

The Jedi as actually portrayed in the prequels were right about most things, it’s just that they were too dumb to figure out the clone plot/conspiracy in AotC, and they were dumb enough to send Anakin to hang out with Padme completely alone. And then apparently uninterested in figuring it out after that, up until Palpatine did enough suspicious things.

Things they were right about:
Anakin was too dangerous to train
Obsessive attachments do lead to jealousy, greed, fear, etc.
Starting the war was a bad thing and it’s good to wrap it up as quickly as possible
Anakin’s relationship with Palpatine was suspect
Their own prophecy with the chosen one was probably misread
Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive

You can argue they had to train Anakin and he had to become Vader to fulfill the prophecy by getting close enough to Palpatine to kill him. Like he’s the Force’s sleeper agent. But that negates Anakin’s agency and leaves out the times when he could have let Palpatine be killed.

If Anakin would have followed the rules, or just left the Jedi when he wasn’t happy with the rules, they would have been fine. He stayed because of personal ambition. For some reason modern people are obsessed with the reverse psychology/value inversion where if you ask someone to follow rules that means you’re forcing them to break rules.

Vladius said:

The Jedi as actually portrayed in the prequels were right about most things, it’s just that they were too dumb to figure out the clone plot/conspiracy in AotC, and they were dumb enough to send Anakin to hang out with Padme completely alone. And then apparently uninterested in figuring it out after that, up until Palpatine did enough suspicious things.

I think the jedi were pretty outright said to have become arrogant. I think Yoda pretty much outright says so. Along with the compromising as shown in the whole idea of Mace acting to kill an unarmed man, and the fear angle of what may be fall them.

Things they were right about:
Anakin was too dangerous to train
Obsessive attachments do lead to jealousy, greed, fear, etc.
Starting the war was a bad thing and it’s good to wrap it up as quickly as possible
Anakin’s relationship with Palpatine was suspect
Their own prophecy with the chosen one was probably misread
Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive

I didn’t say that I didn’t think they weren’t correct about anything. But that doesn’t change what I think movies show.

You can argue they had to train Anakin and he had to become Vader to fulfill the prophecy by getting close enough to Palpatine to kill him. Like he’s the Force’s sleeper agent. But that negates Anakin’s agency and leaves out the times when he could have let Palpatine be killed.

If Anakin would have followed the rules, or just left the Jedi when he wasn’t happy with the rules, they would have been fine. He stayed because of personal ambition. For some reason modern people are obsessed with the reverse psychology/value inversion where if you ask someone to follow rules that means you’re forcing them to break rules.

Does this contradict what I said?

Their Mandalorian & Grogu Half In The Bag video was good and also funny in them saying they’ll have to re-evaluate the Prequels, Sequels and other films as this one was so bleh. Although like many others they did say it was like something they’d watch on Disney+ as a series, and would work better as that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CByWbgzOgqQ

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

The Jedi as actually portrayed in the prequels were right about most things, it’s just that they were too dumb to figure out the clone plot/conspiracy in AotC, and they were dumb enough to send Anakin to hang out with Padme completely alone. And then apparently uninterested in figuring it out after that, up until Palpatine did enough suspicious things.

I think the jedi were pretty outright said to have become arrogant. I think Yoda pretty much outright says so. Along with the compromising as shown in the whole idea of Mace acting to kill an unarmed man, and the fear angle of what may be fall them.

Things they were right about:
Anakin was too dangerous to train
Obsessive attachments do lead to jealousy, greed, fear, etc.
Starting the war was a bad thing and it’s good to wrap it up as quickly as possible
Anakin’s relationship with Palpatine was suspect
Their own prophecy with the chosen one was probably misread
Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive

I didn’t say that I didn’t think they weren’t correct about anything. But that doesn’t change what I think movies show.

You can argue they had to train Anakin and he had to become Vader to fulfill the prophecy by getting close enough to Palpatine to kill him. Like he’s the Force’s sleeper agent. But that negates Anakin’s agency and leaves out the times when he could have let Palpatine be killed.

If Anakin would have followed the rules, or just left the Jedi when he wasn’t happy with the rules, they would have been fine. He stayed because of personal ambition. For some reason modern people are obsessed with the reverse psychology/value inversion where if you ask someone to follow rules that means you’re forcing them to break rules.

Does this contradict what I said?

The script says that they’re arrogant, they’re naive and skeptical in regards to the Sith being back (understandable), and you have the Jedi librarian being a little bit arrogant, but everything else is better explained by simple lack of intelligence and poor detective work.

Mace was not killing an unarmed man. It’s impossible to disarm him as he can (and does) shoot fatal lightning bolts from his hands, not to mention his extremely powerful telekinesis. Mace was 100% right, he was too dangerous to be left alive and had a stranglehold over every branch of the government. This was their last chance and Anakin bungled it. It’s a cool moment of ambiguity and internal struggle where Anakin starts out with “it’s not the Jedi way” and ends up with the more honest “I need him!”
I know that’s a callback to Palpatine saying the same thing about Dooku to Anakin, but in this case it was right even if the script is countersignaling it.

Vladius said:

The script says that they’re arrogant, they’re naive and skeptical in regards to the Sith being back (understandable), and you have the Jedi librarian being a little bit arrogant, but everything else is better explained by simple lack of intelligence and poor detective work.

Being skeptical, to me, would be closer to, “I’m not sure.” I’m not saying they’re bullheaded or whatever, but arrogance, for me, doesn’t have to mean they’re utterly pompous about things.

Mace was not killing an unarmed man. It’s impossible to disarm him as he can (and does) shoot fatal lightning bolts from his hands, not to mention his extremely powerful telekinesis. Mace was 100% right, he was too dangerous to be left alive and had a stranglehold over every branch of the government. This was their last chance and Anakin bungled it. It’s a cool moment of ambiguity and internal struggle where Anakin starts out with “it’s not the Jedi way” and ends up with the more honest “I need him!”

Palpatine’s capacity for evil or actions I don’t see as a justification for preemptive action.

I know that’s a callback to Palpatine saying the same thing about Dooku to Anakin, but in this case it was right even if the script is countersignaling it.

Who says it was right? Who decides that?

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

The script says that they’re arrogant, they’re naive and skeptical in regards to the Sith being back (understandable), and you have the Jedi librarian being a little bit arrogant, but everything else is better explained by simple lack of intelligence and poor detective work.

Being skeptical, to me, would be closer to, “I’m not sure.” I’m not saying they’re bullheaded or whatever, but arrogance, for me, doesn’t have to mean they’re utterly pompous about things.

Mace was not killing an unarmed man. It’s impossible to disarm him as he can (and does) shoot fatal lightning bolts from his hands, not to mention his extremely powerful telekinesis. Mace was 100% right, he was too dangerous to be left alive and had a stranglehold over every branch of the government. This was their last chance and Anakin bungled it. It’s a cool moment of ambiguity and internal struggle where Anakin starts out with “it’s not the Jedi way” and ends up with the more honest “I need him!”

Palpatine’s capacity for evil or actions I don’t see as a justification for preemptive action.

I know that’s a callback to Palpatine saying the same thing about Dooku to Anakin, but in this case it was right even if the script is countersignaling it.

Who says it was right? Who decides that?

That’s exactly what they say though. Ki Adi Mundi says “they’ve been extinct for a millennia,” Mace says “I don’t think they could have returned without us knowing.” They don’t get angry or anything. They believe Qui Gon is making an accurate report and effectively say “whether or not this guy is a Sith, definitely investigate further and draw him out so we can make that determination. We’ll do what we can on our end with our resources too.” Qui Gon does, then they immediately accept that Darth Maul was a Sith and decide to be on the lookout for the other half of the duo. Just going off of what happens, their flaw is their lack of followup for whatever reason, not arrogance or disbelief.

It isn’t just his capacity they’re worried about. They know that he controls the senate through corruption. By figuring out that he’s the Sith they were looking for (what Anakin just told them) they know that he had a hand in starting the war, which also means backing the Trade Federation and the Separatists, training Darth Maul and Count Dooku and being responsible for all the people they killed or attempted to kill. And whatever vague business happened with Sifo Dyas. Bare minimum he’s committed high treason and conspiracy to commit murder, and we know it goes way beyond that.

And pretending like everyone has to follow the political Rules of Engagement where you have to be shot at before you shoot back in a situation like this is silly. The Jedi objectively have psychic powers that let them intuit the truth. When Mace says “I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi” and “we must act quickly if the Jedi order is to survive,” it’s not just his paranoia or hubris or some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy talking, it’s literally true. It’s almost an understatement. Palpatine is squarely in the middle of enacting a centuries-long plot specifically to genocide the Jedi. They fail to stop him, and he does. Palpatine didn’t kick off a genocide he was planning his entire life in self-defense lol

The plausible deniability politics elements are there to help explain Anakin’s frame of mind and why he can make excuses for himself. “It’s not the Jedi way,” “I saw Master Windu attempt to assassinate the chancellor,” etc.
Yes, “from a certain point of view,” Palpatine is just a poor widdle member of a religious minority group, who was just SO popular that he was able to maintain power for longer than usual in a time of crisis, and his enemies are just jealous. As the audience we’re privileged to have enough information to know that that’s ridiculous and he’s evil incarnate, aesthetically framed as both secular Satan (Hitler) and literal Satan.

The fact that people want to retroactively blame Mace Windu for this and say “well, you didn’t know for SURE that he would genocide you YET” is sadly predictable, but still insane.

Vladius said:

That’s exactly what they say though. Ki Adi Mundi says “they’ve been extinct for a millennia,” Mace says “I don’t think they could have returned without us knowing.” They don’t get angry or anything.

I’d disagree with that. Saying that to me is different from being unsure and pondering the possibility. They kinda deny it basically more than not to me. I think it’s not a full blown denial of even the possibility as a whole, but one that I think speaks to their view of themselves and their powers regardless, more a dismissive view of it. They’re not completely blinded entirely, but that doesn’t mean they’re not arrogant to me. Like I said, being arrogant, to me, doesn’t mean they’d be utterly pompous and/or bullheaded about it.

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

That’s exactly what they say though. Ki Adi Mundi says “they’ve been extinct for a millennia,” Mace says “I don’t think they could have returned without us knowing.” They don’t get angry or anything.

I’d disagree with that. Saying that to me is different from being unsure and pondering the possibility. They kinda deny it basically more than not to me. I think it’s not a full blown denial of even the possibility as a whole, but one that I think speaks to their view of themselves and their powers regardless, more a dismissive view of it. They’re not completely blinded entirely, but that doesn’t mean they’re not arrogant to me. Like I said, being arrogant, to me, doesn’t mean they’d be utterly pompous and/or bullheaded about it.

You cut out the part where they literally told Qui Gon to investigate it further and that they’re going to help, does that count as “pondering the possibility?”

Vladius said:

You cut out the part where they literally told Qui Gon to investigate it further and that they’re going to help, does that count as “pondering the possibility?”

With no real assistance or back up. I think it’s a bit more generous read of them, to me, that they simply refused to accept the notion but wanted to find out anyway just in case. But like I said, being arrogant, for me, doesn’t mean they’d be entirely bullheaded or overly pompous.

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

You cut out the part where they literally told Qui Gon to investigate it further and that they’re going to help, does that count as “pondering the possibility?”

With no real assistance or back up. I think it’s a bit more generous read of them, to me, that they simply refused to accept the notion but wanted to find out anyway just in case. But like I said, being arrogant, for me, doesn’t mean they’d be entirely bullheaded or overly pompous.

They actually care a lot. I found the IMDB transcript.

“Ki-Adi-Mundi: Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium.
Mace Windu: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
Yoda: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.
Mace Windu: We will use all our resources to unravel this mystery. We will discover the identity of your attacker. May the Force be with you.”

This isn’t refusing to accept it. Yoda in effect says “maybe we missed something,” then Mace says they’re going to use ALL their resources on it.

Why don’t they? Presumably Qui Gon and Obi Wan have their fight with Maul before the council’s resources would matter, which would make sense because that’s only in like a few days, if that, and the Sith have been in hiding a thousand years. Maybe they could have sent more Jedi in case Maul came out of hiding, but they didn’t want to destabilize the political situation further by making it look like the Jedi were Naboo’s private army. Of course a lot of viewers criticize them for that kind of thing too, but that’s the opposite of arrogance, if anything it’s the refusal to assert themselves.

Why don’t we get any follow up on it and what they’re doing to look for the other Sith? Ask Lucas on that one. Maybe something else completely offscreen that went nowhere. That’s why I’m criticizing the script and lack of continuity between the movies, instead of saying this was the Jedi being “arrogant.” They’re being dumb, not proud.

Vladius said:

They actually care a lot. I found the IMDB transcript.

“Ki-Adi-Mundi: Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium.
Mace Windu: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
Yoda: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.
Mace Windu: We will use all our resources to unravel this mystery. We will discover the identity of your attacker. May the Force be with you.”

This isn’t refusing to accept it. Yoda in effect says “maybe we missed something,” then Mace says they’re going to use ALL their resources on it.

Why don’t they? Presumably Qui Gon and Obi Wan have their fight with Maul before the council’s resources would matter, which would make sense because that’s only in like a few days, if that, and the Sith have been in hiding a thousand years. Maybe they could have sent more Jedi in case Maul came out of hiding, but they didn’t want to destabilize the political situation further by making it look like the Jedi were Naboo’s private army. Of course a lot of viewers criticize them for that kind of thing too, but that’s the opposite of arrogance, if anything it’s the refusal to assert themselves.

Why don’t we get any follow up on it and what they’re doing to look for the other Sith? Ask Lucas on that one. Maybe something else completely offscreen that went nowhere. That’s why I’m criticizing the script and lack of continuity between the movies, instead of saying this was the Jedi being “arrogant.” They’re being dumb, not proud.

I didn’t say they didn’t care at all in that paragraph.

I didn’t point to Yoda as the issue here.

Within the movie, what we see is they send Qui and Obi to Naboo with the idea of unraveling the mystery of the sith. Like I said, I didn’t say they were bullheaded or pompous. Barely concerned moreso. I think your reading of arrogance moreso seems to align with the idea that they’d be overly dismissive. I don’t necessarily think that.

I think the folks at Red Letter Media are comedic geniuses and absolutely hilarious.

However, as far as real film criticism goes these guys are incredibly inconsistent to the point where I dismiss the intended “true criticisms” as nonsense and can’t take them seriously whatsoever. For instance, they hate Rogue One but loved Force Awakens which is just baffling to me. They hate the prequels but loved The Acolyte and liked Kenobi (another absurdity).

And even outside of Star Wars I find some of their opinions to be ridiculous. I remember reading on their Facebook page that they thought the original Alien was boring. That’s when I completely dismissed that channel as far as film criticism goes. RLM are just a bunch of clowns to me, so i will oblige them and laugh. I view these guys as comedians and don’t take their criticism seriously whatsoever. Sometimes I think these guys don’t even know what they like and just try to be contrarian on purpose for laughs and to be controversial. I absolutely love their Nerd Crew videos. And all the people that think their humor has “aged poorly” or is “sexism” are why comedy is dead today. None of you would be saying that if the genders were reversed and they were women making fun of male stereotypes. Instead it would be “empowering.”

Connor MacLeod said:

I think the folks at Red Letter Media are comedic geniuses and absolutely hilarious.

However, as far as real film criticism goes these guys are incredibly inconsistent to the point where I dismiss the intended “true criticisms” as nonsense and can’t take them seriously whatsoever. For instance, they hate Rogue One but loved Force Awakens which is just baffling to me. They hate the prequels but loved The Acolyte and liked Kenobi (another absurdity).

I think they wanted more the fuzzy adventure feeling of the original Star Wars movies and/or a more straightforward story, hence their fondness for Kenobi and Acolyte. The PT, to me, I think is a bit more of involved story that, while flawedly written to me, I think does the job and is engaging. I think some may prefer the feeling of something. I was engaged with TFA as well, and I wasn’t that engaged in RO (I liked aspects of the story and characters, but it felt fairly plotty to me), but I was very interested and engaged in Andor (I felt like the stuff I was interested in in RO, the whole dubious actions of the rebellion stuff and compromising against such an overwhelming problem, was what Andor was way more about as a show, but that’s just me). This isn’t me saying that RO is worse than TFA, but moreso from an emotional engagement perspective.

I can see an argument that the main characters of TPM, for example, are stoic (exception being Anakin and Jar-Jar of course), but I don’t agree with the notion that that means they have no personality. If someone doesn’t like the stoic nature of the youthful focused caring yet naive politician and the noble stern Jedi dad figure and rigid yet arrogant jedi Padawan, I can see that as a personal criticism, but not one that I think is objective, and one that I think is flawed in trying to compare it to OT personalities.

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

They actually care a lot. I found the IMDB transcript.

“Ki-Adi-Mundi: Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium.
Mace Windu: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
Yoda: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.
Mace Windu: We will use all our resources to unravel this mystery. We will discover the identity of your attacker. May the Force be with you.”

This isn’t refusing to accept it. Yoda in effect says “maybe we missed something,” then Mace says they’re going to use ALL their resources on it.

Why don’t they? Presumably Qui Gon and Obi Wan have their fight with Maul before the council’s resources would matter, which would make sense because that’s only in like a few days, if that, and the Sith have been in hiding a thousand years. Maybe they could have sent more Jedi in case Maul came out of hiding, but they didn’t want to destabilize the political situation further by making it look like the Jedi were Naboo’s private army. Of course a lot of viewers criticize them for that kind of thing too, but that’s the opposite of arrogance, if anything it’s the refusal to assert themselves.

Why don’t we get any follow up on it and what they’re doing to look for the other Sith? Ask Lucas on that one. Maybe something else completely offscreen that went nowhere. That’s why I’m criticizing the script and lack of continuity between the movies, instead of saying this was the Jedi being “arrogant.” They’re being dumb, not proud.

I didn’t say they didn’t care at all in that paragraph.

I didn’t point to Yoda as the issue here.

Within the movie, what we see is they send Qui and Obi to Naboo with the idea of unraveling the mystery of the sith. Like I said, I didn’t say they were bullheaded or pompous. Barely concerned moreso. I think your reading of arrogance moreso seems to align with the idea that they’d be overly dismissive. I don’t necessarily think that.

Every sentence you write is contradicting yourself.

Yoda and Mace are the top 2 guys of the entire organization. They’re the ones with the most (almost only?) onscreen speaking roles in scenes where the council actually talks. If they’re not the issue then who are you talking about? Ki Adi?

Yes, exactly, they send them specifically to figure out the Sith. Mace says they’re going to use all their resources on it, and he says they will discover Maul’s identity. So clearly they were not “barely concerned.”

Connor MacLeod said:

I think the folks at Red Letter Media are comedic geniuses and absolutely hilarious.

However, as far as real film criticism goes these guys are incredibly inconsistent to the point where I dismiss the intended “true criticisms” as nonsense and can’t take them seriously whatsoever. For instance, they hate Rogue One but loved Force Awakens which is just baffling to me. They hate the prequels but loved The Acolyte and liked Kenobi (another absurdity).

And even outside of Star Wars I find some of their opinions to be ridiculous. I remember reading on their Facebook page that they thought the original Alien was boring. That’s when I completely dismissed that channel as far as film criticism goes. RLM are just a bunch of clowns to me, so i will oblige them and laugh. I view these guys as comedians and don’t take their criticism seriously whatsoever. Sometimes I think these guys don’t even know what they like and just try to be contrarian on purpose for laughs and to be controversial. I absolutely love their Nerd Crew videos. And all the people that think their humor has “aged poorly” or is “sexism” are why comedy is dead today. None of you would be saying that if the genders were reversed and they were women making fun of male stereotypes. Instead it would be “empowering.”

Liking The Force Awakens made sense at the time because it seemed to address Mike’s criticisms about the prequels directly. There’s rumors and speculation that they actually had influence over JJ Abrams via Simon Pegg being a fan of the prequel reviews. It has the kind of frantic fast paced energy that Mike said he liked from the Abrams Trek movies, it has new characters, and as another example the lightsaber duels are a little bit more restrained - a snowy forest instead of a constantly exploding volcano world, without a lot of unnecessary flips and spins. Sure it was derivative and played on the rebels vs. empire stuff, but before the bottom fell out, you could see TFA actually going somewhere in the next movie.

Rogue One on the other hand was simultaneously dour and almost entirely nostalgia based. Jyn Erso is still not a compelling character, neither are the two Chinese guys, and as of Rogue One (not taking into account anything from Andor) neither is Cassian. K2 is funny and that’s it. Everything they criticized in that review is still true even if you like the ending battle and the Star Wars Battlefront Vader segment.

As for Kenobi and Acolyte yeah they completely lost the plot and went crazy. I think with those it’s as simple as Mike and Rich liking Star Trek so much. The cheap sets and episodic TV format remind them of older TV shows, which they find charming. They definitely have very questionable taste with a lot of other things too. Unfortunately they’ve grown to resemble what they were making fun of with the Nerd Crew.

Vladius said:

Every sentence you write is contradicting yourself.

Yoda and Mace are the top 2 guys of the entire organization. They’re the ones with the most (almost only?) onscreen speaking roles in scenes where the council actually talks. If they’re not the issue then who are you talking about? Ki Adi?

Yes, exactly, they send them specifically to figure out the Sith. Mace says they’re going to use all their resources on it, and he says they will discover Maul’s identity. So clearly they were not “barely concerned.”

How are any of the sentences I wrote a contradiction?

I don’t think I stated that any individual jedi was an issue. I moreso referred to the idea of the jedi’s arrogance, and that I think that didn’t necessarily make them bullheaded or pompous, more barely concerned, or lax or lack of a better term, to me.

And I think if they were so concerned about the idea of a sith, sending 1 jedi and a padawan wasn’t a showcase of it, to me. But I also think them sending Qui and Obi were more about the Naboo issue than the sith thing as a whole. To be specific, your quote doesn’t read as them “caring a lot” to me, more an acknowledgement of a possibility and willingness to pursue seeking an answer. Like I said, not, to me, a reading of pompousness or bullheadedness. I said before I think it’s a bit more generous read of them, to me, that they simply refused to accept the notion but wanted to find out anyway just in case, though perhaps that was a bit harsher than I may have intended.

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

Every sentence you write is contradicting yourself.

Yoda and Mace are the top 2 guys of the entire organization. They’re the ones with the most (almost only?) onscreen speaking roles in scenes where the council actually talks. If they’re not the issue then who are you talking about? Ki Adi?

Yes, exactly, they send them specifically to figure out the Sith. Mace says they’re going to use all their resources on it, and he says they will discover Maul’s identity. So clearly they were not “barely concerned.”

How are any of the sentences I wrote a contradiction?

I don’t think I stated that any individual jedi was an issue. I moreso referred to the idea of the jedi’s arrogance, and that I think that didn’t necessarily make them bullheaded or pompous, more barely concerned, or lax or lack of a better term, to me.

And I think if they were so concerned about the idea of a sith, sending 1 jedi and a padawan wasn’t a showcase of it, to me. But I also think them sending Qui and Obi were more about the Naboo issue than the sith thing as a whole. To be specific, your quote doesn’t read as them “caring a lot” to me, more an acknowledgement of a possibility and willingness to pursue seeking an answer. Like I said, not, to me, a reading of pompousness or bullheadedness. I said before I think it’s a bit more generous read of them, to me, that they simply refused to accept the notion but wanted to find out anyway just in case, though perhaps that was a bit harsher than I may have intended.

You’re getting to my point, which is that Out of Universe, we know that they don’t end up following up on Darth Maul or the Sith very well. In Universe, with what is actually depicted and said in The Phantom Menace, they do care and they will follow up. You’re reading it in retroactively that Mace doesn’t actually mean what he says there, and then interpreting that as proud or aloof (I don’t care how you phrase it, please don’t repeat the phrase about bullheaded or pompous.) But that’s an Out of Universe judgment after Lucas chose not to put certain things in the following movies, not an outlook of the characters in this movie.

Likewise Out of Universe we say that it was dumb to only send Qui Gon and Obi Wan to potentially fight Darth Maul because Out of Universe we know exactly what happens next, and because we like to play backseat driver. But it was just that, dumb, not uncaring. Tactically incompetent. In Universe, the motivation wasn’t “nah let’s get Qui Gon and Obi Wan killed, who cares”, it’s some combination of “let’s treat this political situation carefully” and “they’re very capable Jedi, they can handle this.” It’s obviously considered still part of the Naboo situation which is probably why they don’t want to escalate it to a holy war right away, sight unseen.

Vladius said:

You’re getting to my point, which is that Out of Universe, we know that they don’t end up following up on Darth Maul or the Sith very well. In Universe, with what is actually depicted and said in The Phantom Menace, they do care and they will follow up. You’re reading it in retroactively that Mace doesn’t actually mean what he says there, and then interpreting that as proud or aloof (I don’t care how you phrase it, please don’t repeat the phrase about bullheaded or pompous.) But that’s an Out of Universe judgment after Lucas chose not to put certain things in the following movies, not an outlook of the characters in this movie.

I’m more referring to the events in the movie as it is, in that even if they think it’s a sith, they don’t take it seriously I think. And I think it moreso plays, starting with them thinking it’s impossible and that the sith couldn’t have returned without them knowing, that they’re not ignorant of the possibility and are willing to see it, but they themselves don’t think it, so going from that I’m not sure I buy your idea that they cared a lot.

But how does that mean every sentence I wrote contradicted myself?

Likewise Out of Universe we say that it was dumb to only send Qui Gon and Obi Wan to potentially fight Darth Maul because Out of Universe we know exactly what happens next, and because we like to play backseat driver. But it was just that, dumb, not uncaring. Tactically incompetent. In Universe, the motivation wasn’t “nah let’s get Qui Gon and Obi Wan killed, who cares”, it’s some combination of “let’s treat this political situation carefully” and “they’re very capable Jedi, they can handle this.” It’s obviously considered still part of the Naboo situation which is probably why they don’t want to escalate it to a holy war right away, sight unseen.

Like I said, based on the context of the characters reactions to the idea of it being a sith, I don’t think their attitude contradicts their choice to send only them.

I didn’t say that the Jedi council didn’t care about them getting killed. My read is that they don’t take the idea of the sith returning seriously, which I think is supported in the movie by the characters own reactions to Qui’s suggestion of it being a sith. Your suggestion of their perception at the end there I think doesn’t really contradict mine.

Their initial reaction is reasonable given the circumstances, and then they take it seriously and care about it. I guess I can’t persuade you but that’s literally what happens in the movie, unless you think Yoda and Mace are lying.

Like imagine someone told you a group of guys that your ancestors fought and wiped out in the year 1132 or something are back and they want revenge on you, and they’re working for Coca Cola to coup a government in South America, and the only way they’ve been identified so far is their choice of weapon and martial arts style, based on a single guy. And you have psychic powers that let you sense danger and looming threats in general. And the guy telling you this is a little bit of a renegade who doesn’t see eye to eye with you on a lot of things. You wouldn’t be a little bit skeptical? You wouldn’t think Coca Cola overthrowing that government (your existing assignment) is a bigger deal than the details of a single hitman they have working for them? Obviously Star Wars operates on much larger timescales in regard to the Republic, but still.

“but they themselves don’t think it”

“Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of the dark warrior. This is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith.” - Mace Windu

Vladius said:

Their initial reaction is reasonable given the circumstances, and then they take it seriously and care about it. I guess I can’t persuade you but that’s literally what happens in the movie, unless you think Yoda and Mace are lying.

I don’t see any situation in the movie where they ever take it seriously. I think you’re hanging all this on the one line where they say they’ll look into it, where everything else suggests they’re not too fixated.

But how does that mean every sentence I wrote contradicted myself?

Like imagine someone told you a group of guys that your ancestors fought and wiped out in the year 1132 or something are back and they want revenge on you, and they’re working for Coca Cola to coup a government in South America, and the only way they’ve been identified so far is their choice of weapon and martial arts style, based on a single guy. And you have psychic powers that let you sense danger and looming threats in general. And the guy telling you this is a little bit of a renegade who doesn’t see eye to eye with you on a lot of things. You wouldn’t be a little bit skeptical? You wouldn’t think Coca Cola overthrowing that government (your existing assignment) is a bigger deal than the details of a single hitman they have working for them? Obviously Star Wars operates on much larger timescales in regard to the Republic, but still.

We’re now debating the idea of what we would do and what we should do. I don’t think that changes anything about whether or not it’s arrogant.

“but they themselves don’t think it”

“Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of the dark warrior. This is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith.” - Mace Windu

They send two and no one else.

Dagenspear said:

Vladius said:

Their initial reaction is reasonable given the circumstances, and then they take it seriously and care about it. I guess I can’t persuade you but that’s literally what happens in the movie, unless you think Yoda and Mace are lying.

I don’t see any situation in the movie where they ever take it seriously. I think you’re hanging all this on the one line where they say they’ll look into it, where everything else suggests they’re not too fixated.

But how does that mean every sentence I wrote contradicted myself?

Like imagine someone told you a group of guys that your ancestors fought and wiped out in the year 1132 or something are back and they want revenge on you, and they’re working for Coca Cola to coup a government in South America, and the only way they’ve been identified so far is their choice of weapon and martial arts style, based on a single guy. And you have psychic powers that let you sense danger and looming threats in general. And the guy telling you this is a little bit of a renegade who doesn’t see eye to eye with you on a lot of things. You wouldn’t be a little bit skeptical? You wouldn’t think Coca Cola overthrowing that government (your existing assignment) is a bigger deal than the details of a single hitman they have working for them? Obviously Star Wars operates on much larger timescales in regard to the Republic, but still.

We’re now debating the idea of what we would do and what we should do. I don’t think that changes anything about whether or not it’s arrogant.

“but they themselves don’t think it”

“Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of the dark warrior. This is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith.” - Mace Windu

They send two and no one else.

Okay, so you agree Mace said they were interested and taking it seriously, but now you’re just saying that he’s lying. I don’t think so, but that’s at least more consistent with pride than what you were saying before, which is that they verbally denied it and said they weren’t interested or taking it seriously. I think you just forgot what was said in the scene until I posted it. It’s not a single line, it’s the entire scene and Qui Gon’s funeral scene. Even if it was just the one line, that’s the line that defines what is happening in the movie.

Side Character A - “We can’t go that way, a snow storm came in.”
Side Character B - “We’ll go this way instead.”

(they go somewhere offscreen while the main characters follow the main plot)

You - “They didn’t go that way. There’s only a single line in the movie where they say that they were going that way!”

I’m not talking about what we would do or what we should do, that’s what you’re doing by saying “they should have sent more than two guys.” I’m saying skepticism in that situation isn’t arrogance, it’s a very reasonable reaction given what they know. The purpose of the example is to help you get in the frame of mind where you understand that concept.

Again, sending two is DUMB, not proud. And it’s right there, the point is to discover his identity in case he shows up, not to fight him to the death, which would be counterproductive for finding out who he is. They don’t know exactly how the whole battle is going to play out.

Vladius said:

Okay, so you agree Mace said they were interested and taking it seriously, but now you’re just saying that he’s lying. I don’t think so, but that’s at least more consistent with pride than what you were saying before, which is that they verbally denied it and said they weren’t interested or taking it seriously. I think you just forgot what was said in the scene until I posted it. It’s not a single line, it’s the entire scene and Qui Gon’s funeral scene. Even if it was just the one line, that’s the line that defines what is happening in the movie.

But how does that mean every sentence I wrote contradicted myself?

Where did I say Mace had no interest at all? No, I didn’t say that they were taking it seriously I think. I think I didn’t say lying either. I don’t know what Mace was meant to be meaning when he said they’ll look into it. Call it a flaw in the movie, if you want, that’s not my issue. But I’m suggesting that I think everything else beyond a single line in the movie, to me, suggests a general feeling of not regarding the situation as serious.

Side Character A - “We can’t go that way, a snow storm came in.”
Side Character B - “We’ll go this way instead.”

(they go somewhere offscreen while the main characters follow the main plot)

You - “They didn’t go that way. There’s only a single line in the movie where they say that they were going that way!”

I don’t think I made any statement of what they did or didn’t do. I’m referring to the character and story context around it, which I think suggests a lack of engagement on the issue as a whole.

I’m not talking about what we would do or what we should do, that’s what you’re doing by saying “they should have sent more than two guys.” I’m saying skepticism in that situation isn’t arrogance, it’s a very reasonable reaction given what they know. The purpose of the example is to help you get in the frame of mind where you understand that concept.

That’s not what I meant when I was referring to when I said “what we would do and what we should do”. You brought up a comparison of an hypothetical real life scenario of what you think someone would realistically do in a situation. I suggested that what humans would do in real life doesn’t make it the correct thing to do or the not arrogant thing. I disagree that it would be the not arrogant (as a whole) thing to do. I didn’t say it would be the lying thing, or the cruel thing, or the pompous thing to do.

Again, sending two is DUMB, not proud. And it’s right there, the point is to discover his identity in case he shows up, not to fight him to the death, which would be counterproductive for finding out who he is. They don’t know exactly how the whole battle is going to play out.

Some may perceive that pride leads to a lack of planning and not using your resources. By the very nature of the way the scene frames basically everything else in those scenes, yes, I think the Jedi are depicted as a bit dismissive and not taking it seriously. If anything, the weak writing comes from Mace’s line about looking into it, as I think that runs counter to the rest of the vibe and character interactions.