What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 29

Dagenspear said:

Shopping Maul said:

Because, to my mind, the PT was (or should have been) an opportunity to make the clunky story decisions in the OT actually have dramatic weight and an added sense of logic. When Obi Wan says “what I told you was true, from a certain point of view”, it still feels as ridiculous as it did in 1983.

But why should it be those movies job to do this? Instead of what you want it to do?

At the end of the day, the way the twins were supposedly ‘hidden’ does not make a lick of sense. You don’t hide the future ‘only hope for the galaxy’ at his uncle’s house (30 ft away from Grandma’s grave no less)! You don’t hide the other ‘only hope for the galaxy’ in the office next-door to The Emperor! It’s absurd. I can’t help with the Leia nonsense, but at least with Luke we have the potential for a complex emotional situation regarding Owen that could logically justify this less than ideal hiding place.

That was the OT as well that made that choice (without the grandma thing though).

How does it make sense for the character of Owen, what you said before? And how does your pitch explain why the Jedi would leave Luke with Owen? Or Obi telling Luke that Vader killed his dad?

But also… I don’t get this. The PT the most straightforward reasoning I think they could given the situation:

The Jedi are being hunted, and so keeping the kids with them wouldn’t assist them.

And keeping them apart I think ensures that even if one is found the other could be out there.

And I think putting them with people they think they can trust to look after the kid makes sense, so one goes to his family, the other to the only other trustworthy, to them, person they know who knows about who the kids are, and he chooses the girl because he’d wanted to adopt a girl.

And Obi left Anakin for dead, so the only person who would go there for any reason Obi I think has reason to think is dead by that point.

You’re right, it doesn’t work. I’d forgotten that Obi Wan said both twins would automatically be a threat to the Emperor.

Again, I believe the PT could (and should) have cleaned up the mess made by the OT and created a better, logical, dramatic story.

Why is this the PT’s job to fix the mess of the OT movies? Why criticize the PT movies for doing that? Especially considering people I think have also ragged on the PT for diverting too far from the OT? Do you criticize the OT movies for these things to this point?

I think were arguing past each other at this point. To steelman your position (and by all means tell me if I’m misrepresenting you) you’re basically saying that the OT is what it is, love it or hate it, and it’s not the job of the PT to go the extra mile and repair whatever issues I (or others) may have with the OT. Essentially my issue is with the OT, not the PT which is honouring the OT as required.

If this is a fair representation, then you’re right. But I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that the PT could have told a story that makes the cringey elements in the OT resonate better in the context of the 6-episode saga. I think the ‘certain point of view’ still falls flat in the overall context because the PT failed to deliver a convincing character arc/analysis for Anakin/Vader. I think the ‘hidden from the Emperor’ thing still feels silly because the PT failed to make a reasonable case for why Luke was sent to Owen while Leia was sent to a high-profile colleague of the Emperor.

The Kenobi series is an example of other creators trying to insert the dramatic points that the prequels lacked. I’m not saying that it succeeds, or that it’s even any good, but it illustrates the frustrations many fans have with the PT. That’s why the show seeks to create an actual relationship between Obi Wan and Owen Lars that kind of mirrors what I suggested earlier - that Owen is insistent on Luke being raised as a normal boy and not the Jedi hope of the galaxy. And it also tries to make the ‘Vader spiritually murdered his former self’ more overt in a way that makes Obi Wan’s lies in the OT seem less jarring. Again, I’m not saying it succeeds, but it’s illustrative of a common viewpoint regarding the PT.

That said, all of your points have given me something to think about and I appreciate the back and forth.

Shopping Maul said:

I think were arguing past each other at this point. To steelman your position (and by all means tell me if I’m misrepresenting you) you’re basically saying that the OT is what it is, love it or hate it, and it’s not the job of the PT to go the extra mile and repair whatever issues I (or others) may have with the OT. Essentially my issue is with the OT, not the PT which is honouring the OT as required.

If this is a fair representation, then you’re right.

That’s about my stance, you’re correct I think.

But I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that the PT could have told a story that makes the cringey elements in the OT resonate better in the context of the 6-episode saga. I think the ‘certain point of view’ still falls flat in the overall context because the PT failed to deliver a convincing character arc/analysis for Anakin/Vader. I think the ‘hidden from the Emperor’ thing still feels silly because the PT failed to make a reasonable case for why Luke was sent to Owen while Leia was sent to a high-profile colleague of the Emperor.

Maybe it could have for you, but I don’t think it’s a solid criticism of the PT that it didn’t do that.

As I said, I think the way the PT functions is at the most straightforward angle that I think makes sense. Leia went with a royal, because he was the only other person who knew who she was and what was going on. Luke went with his family because that was the only other people who were connected to him I think. The Jedi were being hunted.

The Kenobi series is an example of other creators trying to insert the dramatic points that the prequels lacked. I’m not saying that it succeeds, or that it’s even any good, but it illustrates the frustrations many fans have with the PT. That’s why the show seeks to create an actual relationship between Obi Wan and Owen Lars that kind of mirrors what I suggested earlier - that Owen is insistent on Luke being raised as a normal boy and not the Jedi hope of the galaxy. And it also tries to make the ‘Vader spiritually murdered his former self’ more overt in a way that makes Obi Wan’s lies in the OT seem less jarring. Again, I’m not saying it succeeds, but it’s illustrative of a common viewpoint regarding the PT.

I don’t know what you’re referring to in regards to the Kenobi series adding anything to the OT or PT. Obi and Owen are never developed to have much of a relationship in the OT. Moreso that Owen doesn’t want Obi involved in Luke’s life, I don’t think we need them to have a relationship for that overall really. But also I don’t think it’d add a lot to the overall story to have, as Owen dies fairly early and is never brought up again in the OT, so too much else about him I think would be a structural lacking to me. I said before I think Owen’s use in the PT leaves a bit to be desired, in some way, but moreso in his connection to Anakin. That and Obi-Wan’s lie I can see as a legit criticism, as I think there is simply no reason based in Obi’s character that I think he’d have to lie about that (though I think there’s a potential handwave for it, but that’s me doing the movies job for it, in the idea that Owen’s views are simply retroactive, as Kenobi plays it seemingly). I posted a TPM outline redo here that does some work at refining that aspect to me, in giving Obi’s words about Owen some actual basis, I’d like to read your thoughts on it:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-Outline-REWRITE/id/142856

Like I said about trying to give him some form of outside justification, I think leans into, to me, dismissing responsibility away from the character of Obi and his lie, strips him of flaws as a human being, and agency in his perception as a character. I have no real issue with a story of Obi taking time to come to the perception, with more exploration, that Anakin killed that version of himself, but the Kenobi show, and some version where he makes a promise to Padme, I think more takes away from his character in what it does, tries to make him all pure and nice, instead of the complex human being who’d hide from one of his most painful moments fully of his volition, while for the Padme promise thing to me oddly throws onto him kinda unnatural flaws that the OT would never deal with I think (as I said before, him promising Padme he wouldn’t tell Luke about his dad, I think it kinda makes Obi like he’s mistreating the promise he made to her by using it to get Luke to kill Vader).

For a variation of this, I posted a Kenobi series outline redo here as well, I’d also like to read your thoughts on, but it’s more of a read, so I’d understand if you wouldn’t wanna go through it:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Obi-Wan-Kenobi-Series-Fix/id/137114

That said, all of your points have given me something to think about and I appreciate the back and forth.

Yes, Attack of the Clones should have spent a little more time developing the relationship between Anakin and Owen. A couple of scenes showing them interacting would have been more than enough to establish Owen’s perspective and make his attitude toward Anakin more understandable. However, I’ve never considered it a particularly major problem.

Personally, I’ve always interpreted Obi-Wan’s line, “He thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved,” as referring to something Owen had told him at some point between Episode III and Episode IV. To me, it makes perfect sense that Owen would have told Obi-Wan that Anakin should have stayed on Tatooine instead of becoming a Jedi, especially if Obi-Wan had told him that Anakin died during the Jedi Purge (since I doubt he would have told Owen the truth).

After all, A New Hope implicitly establishes that Owen and Obi-Wan had a history of interacting before the events of the movie. The fact that they had crossed paths several times, and had even argued on occasion during the years between the rise of the Empire and the beginning of A New Hope, is already part of the continuity established by the OT itself.

Spartacus01 said:

Yes, Attack of the Clones should have spent a little more time developing the relationship between Anakin and Owen. A couple of scenes showing them interacting would have been more than enough to establish Owen’s perspective and make his attitude toward Anakin more understandable. However, I’ve never considered it a particularly major problem.

Personally, I’ve always interpreted Obi-Wan’s line, “He thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved,” as referring to something Owen had told him at some point between Episode III and Episode IV. To me, it makes perfect sense that Owen would have told Obi-Wan that Anakin should have stayed on Tatooine instead of becoming a Jedi, especially if Obi-Wan had told him that Anakin died during the Jedi Purge (since I doubt he would have told Owen the truth).

After all, A New Hope implicitly establishes that Owen and Obi-Wan had a history of interacting before the events of the movie. The fact that they had crossed paths several times, and had even argued on occasion during the years between the rise of the Empire and the beginning of A New Hope, is already part of the continuity established by the OT itself.

It’s not necessarily something that directly does anything to the movies for me, more a smaller issue overall, but one I have with it. But I do think the way Owen and Beru talk about Luke’s dad in ANH feels to me like it’s more personal, so I think that could use an extra bit to give that weight. As I said above, I posted a TPM outline redo here that does some work at refining that aspect to me, among some others, in giving Obi’s words about Owen some actual basis and filling out some dynamics and character details I think. I’d like to read your thoughts on it:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-Outline-REWRITE/id/142856

Dagenspear said:

Shopping Maul said:

I think were arguing past each other at this point. To steelman your position (and by all means tell me if I’m misrepresenting you) you’re basically saying that the OT is what it is, love it or hate it, and it’s not the job of the PT to go the extra mile and repair whatever issues I (or others) may have with the OT. Essentially my issue is with the OT, not the PT which is honouring the OT as required.

If this is a fair representation, then you’re right.

That’s about my stance, you’re correct I think.

But I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that the PT could have told a story that makes the cringey elements in the OT resonate better in the context of the 6-episode saga. I think the ‘certain point of view’ still falls flat in the overall context because the PT failed to deliver a convincing character arc/analysis for Anakin/Vader. I think the ‘hidden from the Emperor’ thing still feels silly because the PT failed to make a reasonable case for why Luke was sent to Owen while Leia was sent to a high-profile colleague of the Emperor.

Maybe it could have for you, but I don’t think it’s a solid criticism of the PT that it didn’t do that.

As I said, I think the way the PT functions is at the most straightforward angle that I think makes sense. Leia went with a royal, because he was the only other person who knew who she was and what was going on. Luke went with his family because that was the only other people who were connected to him I think. The Jedi were being hunted.

The Kenobi series is an example of other creators trying to insert the dramatic points that the prequels lacked. I’m not saying that it succeeds, or that it’s even any good, but it illustrates the frustrations many fans have with the PT. That’s why the show seeks to create an actual relationship between Obi Wan and Owen Lars that kind of mirrors what I suggested earlier - that Owen is insistent on Luke being raised as a normal boy and not the Jedi hope of the galaxy. And it also tries to make the ‘Vader spiritually murdered his former self’ more overt in a way that makes Obi Wan’s lies in the OT seem less jarring. Again, I’m not saying it succeeds, but it’s illustrative of a common viewpoint regarding the PT.

I don’t know what you’re referring to in regards to the Kenobi series adding anything to the OT or PT. Obi and Owen are never developed to have much of a relationship in the OT. Moreso that Owen doesn’t want Obi involved in Luke’s life, I don’t think we need them to have a relationship for that overall really. But also I don’t think it’d add a lot to the overall story to have, as Owen dies fairly early and is never brought up again in the OT, so too much else about him I think would be a structural lacking to me. I said before I think Owen’s use in the PT leaves a bit to be desired, in some way, but moreso in his connection to Anakin. That and Obi-Wan’s lie I can see as a legit criticism, as I think there is simply no reason based in Obi’s character that I think he’d have to lie about that (though I think there’s a potential handwave for it, but that’s me doing the movies job for it, in the idea that Owen’s views are simply retroactive, as Kenobi plays it seemingly). I posted a TPM outline redo here that does some work at refining that aspect to me, in giving Obi’s words about Owen some actual basis, I’d like to read your thoughts on it:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-Outline-REWRITE/id/142856

Well essentially you’re doing a similar thing in your rewrite to what I’m suggesting in this thread. Your rewrite of TPM (which was a fun read - thank you) strengthens the ties between Anakin and Owen, strengthens the relationship between Padme and Anakin (particularly by simply adjusting Anakin’s age which is a huge help), strengthens the narrative with Bail Organa etc etc. We’re basically coming from the same place as fans in terms of wanting more out of the PT than it’s delivering - we just diverge on the details. And the Kenobi show was trying to do the same - strengthen the relationships and attempt to make the retcons in the OT cohere more effectively.

I did get a little lost in the politics of your version - which echoes how folks tend to feel about TPM generally, but of course that would eventually come down to how that aspect is presented in an actual movie. Star Wars '77 was politics-heavy too - as a kid I had no idea about consular ships or regional governors with dwindling bureaucracies etc etc - but the ‘good guys/bad guys fun adventure’ side was so well placed in the fore that it never mattered. TPM suffered from a lack of that balance I think, so it would come down to how it’s all articulated in the final product. But that said I really enjoyed your take.

Like I said about trying to give him some form of outside justification, I think leans into, to me, dismissing responsibility away from the character of Obi and his lie, strips him of flaws as a human being, and agency in his perception as a character. I have no real issue with a story of Obi taking time to come to the perception, with more exploration, that Anakin killed that version of himself, but the Kenobi show, and some version where he makes a promise to Padme, I think more takes away from his character in what it does, tries to make him all pure and nice, instead of the complex human being who’d hide from one of his most painful moments fully of his volition, while for the Padme promise thing to me oddly throws onto him kinda unnatural flaws that the OT would never deal with I think (as I said before, him promising Padme he wouldn’t tell Luke about his dad, I think it kinda makes Obi like he’s mistreating the promise he made to her by using it to get Luke to kill Vader).

I get what you’re saying (I think) but I guess I’ll just never be convinced by the lie and its resolution in RoTJ. If the OT had been written with Luke’s parentage intact from the get-go, there’s no way Obi Wan would have done the ‘betrayed and murdered’ thing (nor would Leia be making out with Luke!). Like I said earlier, it’s actually crueler (towards Luke) than the truth (“your father joined the Empire”). My ‘vow to Padme’ thing doesn’t negate Obi’s ‘point of view’. I’m just suggesting that he share this notion with Luke’s mother and that a combination of their shared belief and Padme’s determination that Luke and Leia never hear the truth be the motivator for the overtness of Kenobi’s lie. Yes, it’s making Obi Wan appear more noble, but why not? He still takes responsibility in RoTJ (just as he takes responsibility for training Anakin despite the Qui Gon connection) but the whole thing becomes deeper and more complex (IMO).

In fact, as I write this reply, it occurs to me that maybe the ‘certain point of view’ would be even better as Padme’s expressed viewpoint alone. Having a dramatic death scene where she makes Obi Wan swear to the ‘Vader killed Anakin’ narrative for the sake of the children (without him necessarily agreeing with her perspective overtly in that moment) could be really cool. That way he’s merely honouring her wishes and any agreement he has with her perspective is implied in RoTJ without him throwing Padme under the bus.

For a variation of this, I posted a Kenobi series outline redo here as well, I’d also like to read your thoughts on, but it’s more of a read, so I’d understand if you wouldn’t wanna go through it:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Obi-Wan-Kenobi-Series-Fix/id/137114

Thanks, I’ll free up some time!

Before the prequels, Vader’s redemption worked for me because it was really all about Luke meeting and briefly getting to know his father. It was the completion of Luke’s arc that was setup in the first film, and wasn’t really about Anakin/Vader. The prequels completely changed the focus of the redemption to Anakin/Vader and broke it.

Actually, making Anakin the main character in the prequels is the main source of a lot of the problems with them. I get that it brings a nice symmetry and cohesiveness to say that the movies are about the Skywalker family, but the prequels should have been Obi-Wan’s story. The OT frames Vader’s downfall as being more about Obi-Wan’s own hubris and failures as a teacher.

Shopping Maul said:

Well essentially you’re doing a similar thing in your rewrite to what I’m suggesting in this thread. Your rewrite of TPM (which was a fun read - thank you) strengthens the ties between Anakin and Owen, strengthens the relationship between Padme and Anakin (particularly by simply adjusting Anakin’s age which is a huge help), strengthens the narrative with Bail Organa etc etc. We’re basically coming from the same place as fans in terms of wanting more out of the PT than it’s delivering - we just diverge on the details. And the Kenobi show was trying to do the same - strengthen the relationships and attempt to make the retcons in the OT cohere more effectively.

I did get a little lost in the politics of your version - which echoes how folks tend to feel about TPM generally, but of course that would eventually come down to how that aspect is presented in an actual movie. Star Wars '77 was politics-heavy too - as a kid I had no idea about consular ships or regional governors with dwindling bureaucracies etc etc - but the ‘good guys/bad guys fun adventure’ side was so well placed in the fore that it never mattered. TPM suffered from a lack of that balance I think, so it would come down to how it’s all articulated in the final product. But that said I really enjoyed your take.

I mean, I have no issue personally here in saying that I think similarly that all prequels have flaws, those flaws can range from things that I think are more structure and interaction based or more specific full scenes. But where we seem to diverge I think is in the details, but, to me, the details are the structure of my disagreement, where I don’t necessarily agree how it fails for the most part. Like you moreso brought up the Obi and Owen thing at least at first, if I understood it correctly, and issues with the Obi lie to Luke and such. My issue with the Kenobi show is that I don’t think the OT offers much connection to what the Kenobi show is doing. Just gives a kinda conflict with Owen and Obi in a scene. Which I engage with the scene, but that’s mostly it to me, and while I think it does show the idea of Owen’s distrust of Obi, I’m not sure how much it adds as a whole. Leia never meets Obi in the OT and she’s never developed to know him. I don’t necessarily think the interactions between Obi and Vader do anything that I think PT didn’t do really for the most part, and Bail is only mentioned as Leia’s dad in the OT.

Like I always see people say that Anakin should be a teenager and I simply don’t agree with as a whole. Personally, I think the only effect this works against is his relationship with Padme, whereas I think it benefits all the others. I think Anakin being introduced as a child is apart of the contrast of what he will become as Vader, so I think it’s apart of the story and character journey, as well as him being a child, in connection to his relationship to Qui-Gon who carries the potential of a dad figure that Anakin never gets to have, that Obi takes on responsibility for, and Palpatine ultimately usurps.

And I think taking out him being a child in TPM strips a complete weight framework of a narrative that travels from the PT into the OT, as, to me, it shows Vader being the personal dad he never had in choosing to die to rescue his son, and not only overthrow his longest oppressor in Palpatine, but also reject fully the emotionally manipulative dad figure (his basically abusive dad in this case) that he’d been living with his whole life. The whole story for Luke is in connecting with his dad basically in the OT. By doing what’s done in the PT, I think this adds to that idea, but I do think it could use refining, hence this.

So, for this, I think it works to only age up Anakin a little bit, and to close the gap more for him and Padme, age her down only by about a year or so. Close enough to have a buyable romantic crush setup and peer dynamic.

As well as Anakin being a bit more proactive in the defeat of trade federation droid control ship. As well as seeding his relationship with Palpatine more, and his dynamic with Obi-Wan, and the Owen connection.

I get what you’re saying (I think) but I guess I’ll just never be convinced by the lie and its resolution in RoTJ. If the OT had been written with Luke’s parentage intact from the get-go, there’s no way Obi Wan would have done the ‘betrayed and murdered’ thing (nor would Leia be making out with Luke!). Like I said earlier, it’s actually crueler (towards Luke) than the truth (“your father joined the Empire”). My ‘vow to Padme’ thing doesn’t negate Obi’s ‘point of view’. I’m just suggesting that he share this notion with Luke’s mother and that a combination of their shared belief and Padme’s determination that Luke and Leia never hear the truth be the motivator for the overtness of Kenobi’s lie. Yes, it’s making Obi Wan appear more noble, but why not? He still takes responsibility in RoTJ (just as he takes responsibility for training Anakin despite the Qui Gon connection) but the whole thing becomes deeper and more complex (IMO).

In fact, as I write this reply, it occurs to me that maybe the ‘certain point of view’ would be even better as Padme’s expressed viewpoint alone. Having a dramatic death scene where she makes Obi Wan swear to the ‘Vader killed Anakin’ narrative for the sake of the children (without him necessarily agreeing with her perspective overtly in that moment) could be really cool. That way he’s merely honouring her wishes and any agreement he has with her perspective is implied in RoTJ without him throwing Padme under the bus.

I think I simply think of this as trying to let Obi off the hook for his approach in the OT. Like, “We’ve gotta justify it,” instead of letting his issue be and showing that he’s a traumatized guy who tried to put his trauma behind him, to me. And personally, I don’t see that type of character as necessarily viewing it that way. And personally, I think it kinda takes away from the weight that Padme has in being connected to Luke, who disagrees that his dad is gone. I think it’s kinda sadly poetic that Luke who doesn’t remember his mother still has a similar view.

For a variation of this, I posted a Kenobi series outline redo here as well, I’d also like to read your thoughts on, but it’s more of a read, so I’d understand if you wouldn’t wanna go through it:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Obi-Wan-Kenobi-Series-Fix/id/137114

Thanks, I’ll free up some time!

I’d be interested in reading your thoughts if you want to.

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Obi-Wan-Kenobi-Series-Fix/id/137114

I’d be interested in reading your thoughts if you want to.

Well I finally read your alternate version of the Kenobi show. To be blunt - it was brilliant! Really enjoyed it. It kind of made the same points as the original but in an infinitely less clunky way, and it also tied up many aspects of the saga (the relationships between Obi and Owen, Anakin and Owen, Anakin’s ‘death’ at Vader’s hands, Leia’s ‘memories’ of her mother, Palpatine/Vader/Obi’s perception of Vader and Anakin separate entities etc etc). The Biggs stuff was a nice touch, as was the larger focus on Luke. Oh, and I loved Owen’s ‘navigator on a Spice Freighter’ routine and Luke’s feelings about his dad. Rather than coming across as fan-service or over-explanations, these details flowed very naturally in your version.

To be clear, I enjoyed the Kenobi show for what it was but would never consider it ‘canon’ (assuming my personal canon to be the PT and OT in this instance). I think your version would definitely make for good, valid canon within the 6-movie set. If anyone else in this thread has been following our conversation at all, I absolutely recommend taking the time to give this a read.

To return to the topic at hand, I think this outline provides something of an antidote to any misgivings about the prequels, and demonstrates how such a ‘bridging’ story could elevate the prequel experience and bring it more in line with the OT.

Shopping Maul said:

Well I finally read your alternate version of the Kenobi show. To be blunt - it was brilliant! Really enjoyed it. It kind of made the same points as the original but in an infinitely less clunky way, and it also tied up many aspects of the saga (the relationships between Obi and Owen, Anakin and Owen, Anakin’s ‘death’ at Vader’s hands, Leia’s ‘memories’ of her mother, Palpatine/Vader/Obi’s perception of Vader and Anakin separate entities etc etc). The Biggs stuff was a nice touch, as was the larger focus on Luke. Oh, and I loved Owen’s ‘navigator on a Spice Freighter’ routine and Luke’s feelings about his dad. Rather than coming across as fan-service or over-explanations, these details flowed very naturally in your version.

To be clear, I enjoyed the Kenobi show for what it was but would never consider it ‘canon’ (assuming my personal canon to be the PT and OT in this instance). I think your version would definitely make for good, valid canon within the 6-movie set. If anyone else in this thread has been following our conversation at all, I absolutely recommend taking the time to give this a read.

To return to the topic at hand, I think this outline provides something of an antidote to any misgivings about the prequels, and demonstrates how such a ‘bridging’ story could elevate the prequel experience and bring it more in line with the OT.

Thanks for reading them and I appreciate the reply on it. I don’t get a lot of feedback on these when I post them that often. The Luke standing up to thugs stuff was partially inspired by a comic that I saw that I liked that part of.

Like I said, I think similarly about there being flaws in the PT. I just don’t always agree with what and how those flaws are criticized/what they are and how to change them. But I do think they’re there. Anakin’s age for the PT is an example on that, where while I think it in connection to Padme is off, I think it works more for all his other relationships, as I brought up above, so the fix for that I think made sense to keep him young but also not too young and also bring down Padme’s age by a year basically.

theprequelsrule said:

The history of the Star Wars Universe was more interesting before Vader and Anakin Skywalker became the same person. It opened up the idea of a much earlier starting date for the Empire than we got. Maybe the Jedi had already been on the run for a generation before Vader tracked down Anakin in the Outer Rim and killed him?

How would Vader have betrayed Anakin in this context? And how is this more interesting than the descent into fascism from within?

camdudetenger2018 said:

what do i think of the prequel trilogy

well they are somewhat alright

althought episode 1 should have 1st started when anakin skywalker was a teenager and also should have began his jedi training as a teenager

then what episode 2 should have had was anakin an almost adult and at the same time secretly still dating padame who tells him that she is pg

and finally what episode 3 should have had was anakin still secretly married to padame who should have alrighty giving birth to the twins luke and leia

I think the main effect Anakin being a child works against is his relationship with Padme, whereas I think it benefits all the others. I think Anakin being introduced as a child is apart of the contrast of what he will become as Vader, so I think it’s apart of the story and character journey, as well as him being a child, in connection to his relationship to Qui-Gon who carries the potential of a dad figure that Anakin never gets to have, that Obi takes on responsibility for, and Palpatine ultimately usurps.

And I think taking out him being a child in TPM strips a complete weight framework of a narrative that travels from the PT into the OT, as, to me, it shows Vader being the personal dad he never had in choosing to die to rescue his son, and not only overthrow his longest oppressor in Palpatine, but also reject fully the emotionally manipulative dad figure (his basically abusive dad in this case) that he’d been living with his whole life. The whole story for Luke is in connecting with his dad basically in the OT. By doing what’s done in the PT, I think this adds to that idea, but I do think it could use refining, hence this:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-Outline-REWRITE/id/142856

theprequelsrule said:

JadedSkywalker said:

‘When I first encountered your father,’ Ben con-
tinued, ‘he was already a great pilot. But what amazed
me was how strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train Anakin in the ways of the Jedi. My
mistake was thinking I could be as good a teacher as
Yoda. I was not. Such was my foolish pride. The
Emperor sensed Anakin’s power, and he lured him to
the dark side.’ He paused sadly and looked directly into
Luke’s eyes, as if he were asking for the boy’s forgive-
ness. ‘My pride had terrible consequences for the gal-
axy.’

ROTJ Novelization.

Then they also talk about the quick and easy path in TESB movie. Vader took the quick and easy path and became an agent of evil. Described as easier, quicker more seductive. Luke says how will I know the good side from the bad. Yoda suggests calm reflection, and be at peace, passive. The force must be used only for knowledge and defense, never for attack. Once you start down the dark path consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

He was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force, Ben’s words in ROTJ. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true from a certain point of view.

In Episode IV Obi Wan says:

“Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father. I understand that you’ve become quite a good pilot yourself. He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand that you’ve become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend.

Luke asks how did my father die.

And Obi Wan says. A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

All 3 OT films talk about Vader’s seduction. where is it in the prequel? other than in the midichlorian scene in the opera house about plagueis. Is it possible to learn this power. Not from a Jedi. His impatience is more than implied in Episode II Obi Wan’s, jealous he is holding me back. I promise you I’ll learn to stop people from dying, someday i’ll be the most powerful Jedi ever. Well, he was arguably the most lethal and powerful Sith Lord, I’ll give him that, JEDI hardly. He lost on Mustafar, he never won a single duel against Ben Kenobi. Not even on the Death Star. Kenobi let him cut him down. He beat Luke in TESB, because Luke was a neophyte, and not even a Padawan. He loses to him in ROTJ, because he was seduced by the light, according to the Disney trilogy and Kylo Ren.

I thought he’d be like a superhero who turns evil. Someone just, someone moral. The prequel doesn’t show that.

I had this great mythology in my head for years based on what Ben said. The JEDI were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic for a thousand generations. and the Clone Wars was going to be this galaxy defining moment. its not even onscreen. or only the start and the end. I never wanted or ever pictured Yoda with a lightsaber. Like at all.

The opening prologue of the Alan Dean Foster novel told me an amazing tale we didn’t receive.

ANOTHER GALAXY, ANOTHER TIME.

The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that … it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples …

From the First Saga

Journal of the Whills

The history of the Star Wars Universe was more interesting before Vader and Anakin Skywalker became the same person. It opened up the idea of a much earlier starting date for the Empire than we got. Maybe the Jedi had already been on the run for a generation before Vader tracked down Anakin in the Outer Rim and killed him?

Why is that more interesting?

camdudetenger2018 said:

althought episode 1 should have 1st started when anakin skywalker was a teenager and also should have began his jedi training as a teenager

Personally, I’ve never understood the argument that Anakin should have been a teenager in The Phantom Menace.

The entire point of The Phantom Menace is that Anakin is deeply attached to his mother, doesn’t want to leave her, and misses her terribly when he goes away. That’s the central emotional conflict of the movie. He’s still a child who depends heavily on his mother, so leaving her behind is extremely painful for him.

If you start the story with an older Anakin, you can’t realistically have this kind of conflict. Teenagers generally want independence, want to leave home and want to distance themselves from their parents. Luke is a good example of this: we first meet him when he’s 19 years old, and we clearly see that he wants to leave Tatooine and go out into the galaxy.

If Anakin were a teenager, he would have been more likely to want to leave home and start his own life instead of desperately wanting to stay with his mother. That would undermine the emotional conflict surrounding his separation from Shmi.

then what episode 2 should have had was anakin an almost adult and at the same time secretly still dating padame who tells him that she is pg

and finally what episode 3 should have had was anakin still secretly married to padame who should have alrighty giving birth to the twins luke and leia

If Padmé had given birth while she was still married to Anakin, he would know that he had two children. But the Original Trilogy makes it clear that Vader doesn’t know. He didn’t know Luke was his son in A New Hope, and he didn’t know Leia was his daughter in Return of the Jedi. So this idea would directly contradict the Original Trilogy in a way that would be impossible to retcon. You’d basically have to explain why Vader somehow completely forgot that Padmé gave birth to twins, which makes zero sense.

Spartacus01 said:

Personally, I’ve never understood the argument that Anakin should have been a teenager in The Phantom Menace.

The entire point of The Phantom Menace is that Anakin is deeply attached to his mother, doesn’t want to leave her, and misses her terribly when he goes away. That’s the central emotional conflict of the movie. He’s still a child who depends heavily on his mother, so leaving her behind is extremely painful for him.

If you start the story with an older Anakin, you can’t realistically have this kind of conflict. Teenagers generally want independence, want to leave home and want to distance themselves from their parents. Luke is a good example of this: we first meet him when he’s 19 years old, and we clearly see that he wants to leave Tatooine and go out into the galaxy.

If Anakin were a teenager, he would have been more likely to want to leave home and start his own life instead of desperately wanting to stay with his mother. That would undermine the emotional conflict surrounding his separation from Shmi.

If Padmé had given birth while she was still married to Anakin, he would know that he had two children. But the Original Trilogy makes it clear that Vader doesn’t know. He didn’t know Luke was his son in A New Hope, and he didn’t know Leia was his daughter in Return of the Jedi. So this idea would directly contradict the Original Trilogy in a way that would be impossible to retcon. You’d basically have to explain why Vader somehow completely forgot that Padmé gave birth to twins, which makes zero sense.

First thing as well, in connection with your point as well: Even if Anakin is older and you still try to play with the idea that Anakin is more closer to adulthood and the same idea was attempted, it’d feel kinda harsh for Anakin to just up and leave his mother whose still a slave. With a child, a child may want something and not necessarily perceive the consequences as a whole and when their parent encourages them in it some may just go for it blindly. I think Anakin’s childlike view of the situation lends itself to that and lends itself to when he gets older he feels more guilty for not having returned to rescue her. I think there may be a way you can do all this with Anakin as older perhaps, but I think the movies went with a more straightforward approach for it all. And, on a more personal note, I simply prefer The Phantom Menace be Padme’s movie more than not, and I think an older Anakin with more activeness kinda pulls away from her in that.

Onto the rest, I don’t disagree with your defense of it, but I think some may have wanted the more perhaps to them “cooler” idea of Anakin as an older figure, so some may have dismissed the notion of the mother angle offhand or even Anakin’s turn to the dark side being so driven by personal connections, perhaps some preferring that Anakin’s turn was far more about his political perception and within that an ends justifies the means mindset, leaning into a more misguided anti hero notion. This isn’t me agreeing with them, more suggesting why some may not accept the mother separation angle as meaningful.

I more usually lean into the connective tissue with the OT in regards to defending it personally. As I did in my above post:

I think the main effect Anakin being a child works against is his relationship with Padme, whereas I think it benefits all the others. I think Anakin being introduced as a child is apart of the contrast of what he will become as Vader, so I think it’s apart of the story and character journey, as well as him being a child, in connection to his relationship to Qui-Gon who carries the potential of a dad figure that Anakin never gets to have, that Obi takes on responsibility for, and Palpatine ultimately usurps.

And I think taking out him being a child in TPM strips a complete weight framework of a narrative that travels from the PT into the OT, as, to me, it shows Vader being the personal dad he never had in choosing to die to rescue his son, and not only overthrow his longest oppressor in Palpatine, but also reject fully the emotionally manipulative dad figure (his basically abusive dad in this case) that he’d been living with his whole life. The whole story for Luke is in connecting with his dad basically in the OT. By doing what’s done in the PT, I think this adds to that idea, but I do think it could use refining, hence this:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-Outline-REWRITE/id/142856

To add a bit to this, I think Anakin’s turn being connected to a fear of losing people he cares about I think can act as a parallel to what Vader and Palpatine use to try to turn Luke in the OT, fear of losing those he cares about.

Spartacus01 said:

camdudetenger2018 said:

althought episode 1 should have 1st started when anakin skywalker was a teenager and also should have began his jedi training as a teenager

Personally, I’ve never understood the argument that Anakin should have been a teenager in The Phantom Menace.

The entire point of The Phantom Menace is that Anakin is deeply attached to his mother, doesn’t want to leave her, and misses her terribly when he goes away. That’s the central emotional conflict of the movie. He’s still a child who depends heavily on his mother, so leaving her behind is extremely painful for him.

If you start the story with an older Anakin, you can’t realistically have this kind of conflict. Teenagers generally want independence, want to leave home and want to distance themselves from their parents. Luke is a good example of this: we first meet him when he’s 19 years old, and we clearly see that he wants to leave Tatooine and go out into the galaxy.

If Anakin were a teenager, he would have been more likely to want to leave home and start his own life instead of desperately wanting to stay with his mother. That would undermine the emotional conflict surrounding his separation from Shmi.

then what episode 2 should have had was anakin an almost adult and at the same time secretly still dating padame who tells him that she is pg

and finally what episode 3 should have had was anakin still secretly married to padame who should have alrighty giving birth to the twins luke and leia

If Padmé had given birth while she was still married to Anakin, he would know that he had two children. But the Original Trilogy makes it clear that Vader doesn’t know. He didn’t know Luke was his son in A New Hope, and he didn’t know Leia was his daughter in Return of the Jedi. So this idea would directly contradict the Original Trilogy in a way that would be impossible to retcon. You’d basically have to explain why Vader somehow completely forgot that Padmé gave birth to twins, which makes zero sense.

Obviously if he was a teenager other aspects of the story would also be different.

Vladius said:

Obviously if he was a teenager other aspects of the story would also be different.

I think the main effect Anakin being a child works against is his relationship with Padme for me, whereas I think it benefits all the others. I think Anakin being introduced as a child is apart of the contrast of what he will become as Vader, so I think it’s apart of the story and character journey, as well as him being a child, in connection to his relationship to Qui-Gon who carries the potential of a dad figure that Anakin never gets to have, that Obi takes on responsibility for, and Palpatine ultimately usurps.

And I think taking out him being a child in TPM strips a complete weight framework of a narrative that travels from the PT into the OT, as, to me, it shows Vader being the personal dad he never had in choosing to die to rescue his son, and not only overthrow his longest oppressor in Palpatine, but also reject fully the emotionally manipulative dad figure (his basically abusive dad in this case) that he’d been living with his whole life. The whole story for Luke is in connecting with his dad basically in the OT. By doing what’s done in the PT in Anakin being a child, I think this adds to that idea, but I do think it could use refining, hence this outline I posted as a redo, which I’d be interested to read thoughts on:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-Outline-REWRITE/id/142856

The history of the Star Wars Universe was more interesting before Vader and Anakin Skywalker became the same person. It opened up the idea of a much earlier starting date for the Empire than we got. Maybe the Jedi had already been on the run for a generation before Vader tracked down Anakin in the Outer Rim and killed him?

I agree. As much as I love talking and debating about various aspects of the saga (and I heartily recommend Dagenspear’s TPM and Kenobi rewrites), I’ve pretty much landed on the original Star Wars '77 as my only true head canon. I prefer Darth Vader as just an awesome bad guy who killed lots of Jedi. And Obi Wan never lied.

Anakin doesn’t fall to the Dark Side because he has “mommy issues.” He falls because he’s consumed by his selfish desire to control what he can’t control so that he never has to experience the pain of losing what he cares about.

In an interview, Lucas said:

«Pleasure is short-lived. It lasts an hour, it lasts a minute, it lasts a month. It peaks and then goes down. It peaks very high, but the next time you want to reach that same peak, you have to do it twice as much. It’s like drugs.

On the other hand, there is joy. Joy is something that doesn’t go as high as pleasure, but it stays with you. Joy is something you can recall. The secret is that even though it’s not as intense as pleasure, joy will last you a lot longer. People who pursue pleasure keep saying, “Well, if I can just get richer and get more cars, you know…” But you’ll never relive the moment you got your first car. That’s it. That was the highest peak. If you’re trying to sustain that level of peak pleasure, you’re doomed. Just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone. Maybe it’ll come back again.

Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion that’s created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving of yourself to somebody else or something else. And it’s the kind of thing that, in its subtlety and lowness, is much more powerful than pleasure. If you get hung up on pleasure, you’re doomed. If you pursue joy, you will find everlasting happiness.»

He wasn’t talking about Anakin specifically here, but I think this quote captures Anakin’s fundamental problem incredibly well. Instead of pursuing joy, Anakin pursues immediate pleasure. He doesn’t want to save Padmé because he genuinely cares about her well-being. His desire to save her isn’t really altruistic. It comes from his selfish refusal to accept the pain that would come with losing her. He wants to eliminate the possibility of loss because he can’t bear the thought of having to live with it.

To me, having Anakin fall to the Dark Side because of his possessiveness, his distorted view of love, and his selfishness is much more compelling than having him fall to the Dark Side because he believes that the ends justify the means. A good person becoming evil because they believe that the ends justify the means is one of the most overdone tropes in the history of cinema, and honestly, I’m tired of seeing it.

Broom Kid said:

That is first (and consistently) exemplified by his attachment to his mother. The attachment to his mother as a kid is the entry point into this idea and the formative aspect of his character you’re describing. The way he chose to build in a “fatal flaw” that leads to his turning in Episode III was to decide that what would turn him into a control freak was losing his mother; which is why he got de-aged in Episode I, because he wanted to make sure that initial trauma was so strong. Again: He arrives at a bad idea, then comes up with worse ideas (why can’t she just come along? Because Jedi take kids, because they’re a weird cult now, oh, and she’s also a slave. Why can’t jedi free slaves? It’s not their job. etc. etc. etc) to justify the initial bad one instead of just CHANGING THE INITIAL BAD IDEA.

Of course, this gets confused by all the “prophecy” stuff anyway, but the character didn’t NEED to have a “fatal flaw” in the first place like that. He decided to root his control freak tendencies in losing his mom, which became losing his wife. But it never needed to be rooted in losing his mom at all - and if he wanted Anakin to be a control freak, there are other ways around it other than mommy issues that then get transferred onto his wife.

Lucas hemmed himself in and then kept sewing anyway.

Star Wars, from the first movie, has a throughline of parental connections and issues with that. So, no, I think his attachment to his mother and his attachment to his dad figure is necessary, to me, from a character, story, thematic and throughline level.

As I said above: I think Anakin being introduced as a child is apart of the contrast of what he will become as Vader, so I think it’s apart of the story and character journey, as well as him being a child, in connection to his relationship to Qui-Gon who carries the potential of a dad figure that Anakin never gets to have, that Obi takes on responsibility for, and Palpatine ultimately usurps. All his relationships, except Padme, benefit from him being a child in narrative. Not just his mother, but his mother is what I see as the start of it. His relationship with Obi is only an issue based on interpersonal writing issues in TPM, not based on the idea of Anakin being a child as a whole to me, his relationship with Obi as older/younger brother type of dynamic I think speaks to Obi’s feelings of failure about him/responsibility for him and love for him, and his relationship with Qui in seeking a dad figure that he loses that Palpatine usurps in connection to Obi’s I think not necessarily strong fitting in that role to carry the weight of Vader’s ultimate turn against Palpatine.

And I think taking out him being a child in TPM strips a complete weight framework of a narrative that travels from the PT into the OT, as, to me, it shows Vader being the personal dad he never had in choosing to die to rescue his son, and not only overthrow his longest oppressor in Palpatine, but also reject fully the emotionally manipulative dad figure (his basically abusive dad in this case I think) that he’d been living with his whole life. The whole story for Luke is in connecting with his dad basically in the OT. By doing what’s done in the PT in Anakin being a child, I think this adds to that idea. On top of paralleling how Vader and Palpatine tried to turn Anakin.

I think you never really say why this idea is actually bad to me.

I think Anakin has rocks in his head for believing Sidious lie about saving Padme with Midichlorians. the speech is great and its mysterious and Ian as an actor plays it up.

Anakin as a character couldn’t be written worse. for the downfall and redemption you have to have a good man who is corrupted, a slow seduction. other than Padme insisting he is of pure heart and goodness, still good in him. you don’t see it in the movies.

There is no arc in the prequel other than sweet slave boy, jump ahead sullen jerk, then kill younglings.

JadedSkywalker said:

I think Anakin has rocks in his head for believing Sidious lie about saving Padme with Midichlorians. the speech is great and its mysterious and Ian as an actor plays it up.

Anakin as a character couldn’t be written worse. for the downfall and redemption you have to have a good man who is corrupted, a slow seduction. other than Padme insisting he is of pure heart and goodness, still good in him. you don’t see it in the movies.

There is no arc in the prequel other than sweet slave boy, jump ahead sullen jerk, then kill younglings.

How is there no arc? Anakin still showcases heroic actions even as a sullen teen (who has been dreaming of his mother being hurt, keep in mind), it’s not what the movie is about, but that doesn’t contradict it I think.

He does seek to rescue his soldiers in ROTS and he is seeking to assist Qui-Gon and Padme in TPM.

His transition to villainy is started by his taking revenge on the tuskens for the death of his mother, but I think that more shows his potential for violence rather than his outright villainy as Vader.

Then in ROTS, he shows he’s willing to murder someone under Palpatine’s order rather than simply in rage and pain, in Dooku. Then he’s struggling with the idea of the death of Padme, Palpatine offers him a way to stop it, he resists and turns Palpatine over to the Jedi, but I think to ensure a way to keep Palpatine alive (so he can prevent Padme’s death) he goes to Palpatine’s office and stops Mace from killing him, and in doing so I think his actions allows Palpatine to kill Mace, after that I think Anakin feels like he’ll be implicated in Mace’s death, so he submits to Palpatine in pursuit of getting the only thing out of it that he thinks he can, Padme’s life, and follows Palpatine’s orders in pursuit of that, including the killing of younglings.

I think it could be done stronger by enough of an amount, but I think to say that there’s no arc is something that isn’t what I see.