I think were arguing past each other at this point. To steelman your position (and by all means tell me if I’m misrepresenting you) you’re basically saying that the OT is what it is, love it or hate it, and it’s not the job of the PT to go the extra mile and repair whatever issues I (or others) may have with the OT. Essentially my issue is with the OT, not the PT which is honouring the OT as required.
If this is a fair representation, then you’re right.
That’s about my stance, you’re correct I think.
But I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that the PT could have told a story that makes the cringey elements in the OT resonate better in the context of the 6-episode saga. I think the ‘certain point of view’ still falls flat in the overall context because the PT failed to deliver a convincing character arc/analysis for Anakin/Vader. I think the ‘hidden from the Emperor’ thing still feels silly because the PT failed to make a reasonable case for why Luke was sent to Owen while Leia was sent to a high-profile colleague of the Emperor.
Maybe it could have for you, but I don’t think it’s a solid criticism of the PT that it didn’t do that.
As I said, I think the way the PT functions is at the most straightforward angle that I think makes sense. Leia went with a royal, because he was the only other person who knew who she was and what was going on. Luke went with his family because that was the only other people who were connected to him I think. The Jedi were being hunted.
The Kenobi series is an example of other creators trying to insert the dramatic points that the prequels lacked. I’m not saying that it succeeds, or that it’s even any good, but it illustrates the frustrations many fans have with the PT. That’s why the show seeks to create an actual relationship between Obi Wan and Owen Lars that kind of mirrors what I suggested earlier - that Owen is insistent on Luke being raised as a normal boy and not the Jedi hope of the galaxy. And it also tries to make the ‘Vader spiritually murdered his former self’ more overt in a way that makes Obi Wan’s lies in the OT seem less jarring. Again, I’m not saying it succeeds, but it’s illustrative of a common viewpoint regarding the PT.
I don’t know what you’re referring to in regards to the Kenobi series adding anything to the OT or PT. Obi and Owen are never developed to have much of a relationship in the OT. Moreso that Owen doesn’t want Obi involved in Luke’s life, I don’t think we need them to have a relationship for that overall really. But also I don’t think it’d add a lot to the overall story to have, as Owen dies fairly early and is never brought up again in the OT, so too much else about him I think would be a structural lacking to me. I said before I think Owen’s use in the PT leaves a bit to be desired, in some way, but moreso in his connection to Anakin. That and Obi-Wan’s lie I can see as a legit criticism, as I think there is simply no reason based in Obi’s character that I think he’d have to lie about that (though I think there’s a potential handwave for it, but that’s me doing the movies job for it, in the idea that Owen’s views are simply retroactive, as Kenobi plays it seemingly). I posted a TPM outline redo here that does some work at refining that aspect to me, in giving Obi’s words about Owen some actual basis, I’d like to read your thoughts on it:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-Outline-REWRITE/id/142856
Well essentially you’re doing a similar thing in your rewrite to what I’m suggesting in this thread. Your rewrite of TPM (which was a fun read - thank you) strengthens the ties between Anakin and Owen, strengthens the relationship between Padme and Anakin (particularly by simply adjusting Anakin’s age which is a huge help), strengthens the narrative with Bail Organa etc etc. We’re basically coming from the same place as fans in terms of wanting more out of the PT than it’s delivering - we just diverge on the details. And the Kenobi show was trying to do the same - strengthen the relationships and attempt to make the retcons in the OT cohere more effectively.
I did get a little lost in the politics of your version - which echoes how folks tend to feel about TPM generally, but of course that would eventually come down to how that aspect is presented in an actual movie. Star Wars '77 was politics-heavy too - as a kid I had no idea about consular ships or regional governors with dwindling bureaucracies etc etc - but the ‘good guys/bad guys fun adventure’ side was so well placed in the fore that it never mattered. TPM suffered from a lack of that balance I think, so it would come down to how it’s all articulated in the final product. But that said I really enjoyed your take.
Like I said about trying to give him some form of outside justification, I think leans into, to me, dismissing responsibility away from the character of Obi and his lie, strips him of flaws as a human being, and agency in his perception as a character. I have no real issue with a story of Obi taking time to come to the perception, with more exploration, that Anakin killed that version of himself, but the Kenobi show, and some version where he makes a promise to Padme, I think more takes away from his character in what it does, tries to make him all pure and nice, instead of the complex human being who’d hide from one of his most painful moments fully of his volition, while for the Padme promise thing to me oddly throws onto him kinda unnatural flaws that the OT would never deal with I think (as I said before, him promising Padme he wouldn’t tell Luke about his dad, I think it kinda makes Obi like he’s mistreating the promise he made to her by using it to get Luke to kill Vader).
I get what you’re saying (I think) but I guess I’ll just never be convinced by the lie and its resolution in RoTJ. If the OT had been written with Luke’s parentage intact from the get-go, there’s no way Obi Wan would have done the ‘betrayed and murdered’ thing (nor would Leia be making out with Luke!). Like I said earlier, it’s actually crueler (towards Luke) than the truth (“your father joined the Empire”). My ‘vow to Padme’ thing doesn’t negate Obi’s ‘point of view’. I’m just suggesting that he share this notion with Luke’s mother and that a combination of their shared belief and Padme’s determination that Luke and Leia never hear the truth be the motivator for the overtness of Kenobi’s lie. Yes, it’s making Obi Wan appear more noble, but why not? He still takes responsibility in RoTJ (just as he takes responsibility for training Anakin despite the Qui Gon connection) but the whole thing becomes deeper and more complex (IMO).
In fact, as I write this reply, it occurs to me that maybe the ‘certain point of view’ would be even better as Padme’s expressed viewpoint alone. Having a dramatic death scene where she makes Obi Wan swear to the ‘Vader killed Anakin’ narrative for the sake of the children (without him necessarily agreeing with her perspective overtly in that moment) could be really cool. That way he’s merely honouring her wishes and any agreement he has with her perspective is implied in RoTJ without him throwing Padme under the bus.
For a variation of this, I posted a Kenobi series outline redo here as well, I’d also like to read your thoughts on, but it’s more of a read, so I’d understand if you wouldn’t wanna go through it:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Obi-Wan-Kenobi-Series-Fix/id/137114
Thanks, I’ll free up some time!