George was telling the truth about the Father Vader twist going back to ANH, but so was Kurtz: — Page 2

Personally, I’m more inclined to believe Marcia Lucas here. It really wouldn’t make sense to invent the whole “from a certain point of view” retcon if Vader was always supposed to be Luke’s father. Having said that, I did feel that there was slight anti-George Lucas bias with Icons Unearthed, and George, Marcia, and Sir Alec Guinness have all separately claimed to have been responsible for killing off Obi-Wan Kenobi, so there are, at a minimum, two liars in the bunch.

patrickmollohan said:

Personally, I’m more inclined to believe Marcia Lucas here.

2012 is rather late to spring that kind of anecdote though, wouldn’t you say? In order to add ‘suspense’ to the story/plot , all Lucas would need is Vader to claim to be Luke’s father. It doesn’t have to be true on a deep-below-the-surface story level. Huyck could make the suggestion, of course: “hey, have Vader claim to be Luke’s father”. But Huyck saying “make Vader Luke’s father” is overreaching. EMPIRE (ESB) is transitional either way - it is not the origin point of the twist. The twist either originated with JEDI, or with the first film, STAR WARS (ANH). Any honest assessment of EMPIRE not colored by hindsight, would see that it’s not conclusive either way in isolation (whether the film or the various scripts/drafts).

patrickmollohan said:

It really wouldn’t make sense to invent the whole “from a certain point of view” retcon if Vader was always supposed to be Luke’s father.

Actually, it does, for several reasons. The “certain point of view” came about because: One, Kasdan thought that Lucas needed to give the audience an in-story reason why Obi-Wan told Luke what he did in the first film, not because he (Lucas) needed to give the audience a reason why he (Lucas) told them one thing and not another. Two, because come JEDI, the premise for the Father Vader twist had changed: this is where Luke says that there’s still good in Vader. I don’t think this was in the first two drafts that were written solely by Lucas. Three, “He betrayed and murdered your father” was a cover-story from the get go. One, it appears rather late in the story/scriptwriting process for STAR WARS - it’s in the very last draft. That and the fact that this element appears some almost three months AFTER Lucas told collaborators in a late December 1975 meeting: “in the next film/story (the sequel), the audience will find out who Darth Vader is”. This last bit, is likely pointing to the earlier version* and origin point of the twist, that Luke’s father had taken on the identity of Darth Vader (whom he had killed) for noble intentions perhaps, but which had consequences later on. This is very aligned with 1970’s Lucas and Kurtz and their mutual admiration for Kurosawa’s films and the moral message that accompanied them. With JEDI, Lucas changed this to: Anakin (Luke’s father) had turned to the dark side. And here too, likely Lucas added the redemption subplot, which is largely based on Luke’s somewhat baffling retroactive perception of Vader’s behavior and actions in the previous film that lead him to believe that Vader was acting out of some ‘buried’ goodness. Essentially, Luke - and Lucas - was retconning EMPIRE’s Vader. In the 1983 “From Star Wars to Jedi” documentary, Lucas only claims that Vader being Luke’s father, and the helmet coming off were part of ‘the original story’. He doesn’t say that the redemption part was part of that story originally.

*the subplot from the PT about Dooku and Anakin replacing him are likely echoes of this older idea. Same with the idea Lucas had for the second draft of TPM, where Obi-Wan the master is actually killed, and his student Qui-Gon takes on his name and identity thereafter.

Very cool stuff! I love studying the history of SW and the “when was Vader made Luke’s father” debate is one of my favorite topics to research. I’ve done a lot of analysis on the topic (based off of both the discoveries of other people, a few discoveries I’ve made myself, and the confirmed documented SW history like the Lucasfilm books and the public older drafts) and as of now I personally believe that Lucas is genuinely telling the complete truth that he had the Vader=Anakin twist fully conceived in its entirety by the third draft of ANH and just briefly considered scrapping it during ESB’s writing. I’ve gathered a lot of evidence to back this up, which I’d be happy to share with you guys if you’re interested.

I highly doubt Marcia’s claim is real. In that same interview that she said that, she said so many other things about SW’s history and her role in stuff that’s just blatantly not true; An example includes her saying “I never even knew there were two stories” which is obvious nonsense because the second ANH draft ends with a sequel teaser, Lucas said to Foster in December 1975 he planned two sequels and a prequel, and Mark Hamill said the actors were all signed on for a trilogy and Lucas mentioned an Episode IX to him in 1976, and I highly doubt George wouldn’t have told his own wife and editor about these plans especially since he already asked her for help with story related stuff multiple times before. Other examples include Marcia saying she suggested to Lucas to cut the Luke and Biggs scenes when Rinzler’s book says Marcia fought to keep them in, Marcia saying the idea of killing Obi-Wan was entirely hers when George said in a 1977 interview (which is years before the divorce so there’s no bias there) that he was already considering the idea of killing Obi-Wan at the time Marcia suggested it, and more. So for now I’m taking Marcia’s claim with a grain of salt because it doesn’t seem like Marcia’s recollection of SW’s history in general is very accurate or unbiased.

@Tosche Station, I’ve read through your posts on both here and the Jedi Council forums on this topic, and I just want to say I really admire your research and theories; you’ve come up with some fantastic and really well ideas and takes on this topic that I never even thought of. I would like to know though where this “google search link” where you found this alleged Kurtz quote is located; I copied and pasted the contents of your quote into Google multiple times and nothing came up. It sounds very intriguing and I’m curious to see it myself. But even if it’s real, it seems to make very little sense to me for two reasons:

1. The idea that Lucas had Vader being Anakin planned in the third draft, but then completely dropped it by the fourth draft, is pretty hard to believe because as far as I know, almost nothing about Vader and Anakin actually changed between the third and fourth draft. The only thing that changed was mention of Luke being raised by Anakin as a young kid being removed, but we know that was still Lucas’s intention even after it was removed from the script because Lucas told Brackett in the ESB conferences that Anakin was the one who brought Luke to Owen and Lucas also said in an interview in 1979 “The prequels are about the early life of Luke’s father when Luke was a little boy”. We’ve also got things you mentioned like Anakin being a pilot and being killed by Vader being mentioned in the fourth draft for the first time, but I think that’s likely just a result of Lucas deciding Luke shouldn’t know his father is a Jedi and Ben telling Luke about him, which was decided by a random note as shown in Rinzler’s Making of Star Wars book.

2. I found a video showing a clip where Kurtz is interviewed where he mentions that he doesn’t believe Vader was always intended as Luke’s father, and he mentions nothing about a “Anakin killed Vader” version of the twist at all. It’s shown in the youtube video “how to watch Star Wars: the George Lucas sequel trilogy” by Rick Worley at 1:40:51

Avimo said:

Very cool stuff! I love studying the history of SW and the “when was Vader made Luke’s father” debate is one of my favorite topics to research. I’ve done a lot of analysis on the topic (based off of both the discoveries of other people, a few discoveries I’ve made myself, and the confirmed documented SW history like the Lucasfilm books and the public older drafts) and as of now I personally believe that Lucas is genuinely telling the complete truth that he had the Vader=Anakin twist fully conceived in its entirety by the third draft of ANH and just briefly considered scrapping it during ESB’s writing. I’ve gathered a lot of evidence to back this up, which I’d be happy to share with you guys if you’re interested.

I highly doubt Marcia’s claim is real. In that same interview that she said that, she said so many other things about SW’s history and her role in stuff that’s just blatantly not true; An example includes her saying “I never even knew there were two stories” which is obvious nonsense because the second ANH draft ends with a sequel teaser, Lucas said to Foster in December 1975 he planned two sequels and a prequel, and Mark Hamill said the actors were all signed on for a trilogy and Lucas mentioned an Episode IX to him in 1976, and I highly doubt George wouldn’t have told his own wife and editor about these plans especially since he already asked her for help with story related stuff multiple times before. Other examples include Marcia saying she suggested to Lucas to cut the Luke and Biggs scenes when Rinzler’s book says Marcia fought to keep them in, Marcia saying the idea of killing Obi-Wan was entirely hers when George said in a 1977 interview (which is years before the divorce so there’s no bias there) that he was already considering the idea of killing Obi-Wan at the time Marcia suggested it, and more. So for now I’m taking Marcia’s claim with a grain of salt because it doesn’t seem like Marcia’s recollection of SW’s history in general is very accurate or unbiased.

@Tosche Station, I’ve read through your posts on both here and the Jedi Council forums on this topic, and I just want to say I really admire your research and theories; you’ve come up with some fantastic and really well ideas and takes on this topic that I never even thought of. I would like to know though where this “google search link” where you found this alleged Kurtz quote is located; I copied and pasted the contents of your quote into Google multiple times and nothing came up. It sounds very intriguing and I’m curious to see it myself. But even if it’s real, it seems to make very little sense to me for two reasons:

1. The idea that Lucas had Vader being Anakin planned in the third draft, but then completely dropped it by the fourth draft, is pretty hard to believe because as far as I know, almost nothing about Vader and Anakin actually changed between the third and fourth draft. The only thing that changed was mention of Luke being raised by Anakin as a young kid being removed, but we know that was still Lucas’s intention even after it was removed from the script because Lucas told Brackett in the ESB conferences that Anakin was the one who brought Luke to Owen and Lucas also said in an interview in 1979 “The prequels are about the early life of Luke’s father when Luke was a little boy”. We’ve also got things you mentioned like Anakin being a pilot and being killed by Vader being mentioned in the fourth draft for the first time, but I think that’s likely just a result of Lucas deciding Luke shouldn’t know his father is a Jedi and Ben telling Luke about him, which was decided by a random note as shown in Rinzler’s Making of Star Wars book.

2. I found a video showing a clip where Kurtz is interviewed where he mentions that he doesn’t believe Vader was always intended as Luke’s father, and he mentions nothing about a “Anakin killed Vader” version of the twist at all. It’s shown in the youtube video “how to watch Star Wars: the George Lucas sequel trilogy” by Rick Worley at 1:40:51

Hi, Avimo! I’d be interested in your research!

1. I agree totally with you and your take regarding Marcia Lucas.

2. Whether or not Kurtz said what was in that quote I found via a google search - which btw I’m no longer able to find - I think that the idea did exist as a rumor circa 1980, 1981. I also happen to think it’s possible that the rumor was generated by a leak from LFL to the sci-fi/fantasy community. Meaning, I think there was an original version of the twist planned by Lucas during the writing of the first film*, STAR WARS(ANH). The leak may have been deliberate obfuscation or a genuine, unplanned leak. Like you, I also find it hard to believe that the twist would have been completely dropped by Lucas around the time of writing the fourth draft, after having been part of the submerged deep story underlying the third draft. I think that the “we find out who Darth Vader is at the end of the second book (sequel)” statement by Lucas back in December of 1975 during a production/story meeting, is referencing a twist of some kind involving Vader being Luke’s father or tied to him in some way, rather than part of the Vader-killed-Luke’s father version which anyway didn’t appear in script form until several months (almost three) after this December 1975 statement from Lucas.

• *Iow, the twist was NOT invented ex-nihilo during the writing for EMPIRE(ESB), despite what offical LFL ‘orthodox’ and the ‘general consensus’ among fans and moviegoers say. The original Vader-father twist was either: Option A - Vader was a clone of Luke’s father, and killed Luke’s father due to believing that he (Vader) was the ‘real deal’, and because of that genuine belief, he told Luke in EMPIRE that he’s his father. Option B - Vader had an affair with Annikin/Anakin’s wife, Annikin really did die, and thus Vader was Luke’s true biological father. Option C - Luke’s father Annikin killed the first, original Darth Vader sometime during the back-story, then took on his identity and became the Darth Vader we know in the original trilogy. This version of Vader would then try to make things right at the end of EMPIRE or beginning of JEDI, asking Luke to help him. In this version, he became Vader for more noble reasons. edit: The final, ‘canonical’ version of the twist revealed in ROTJ, was actually created/written during the development and scripting phase of JEDI, not for that of EMPIRE. Edit: I’ve noticed that in the 1983 documentary “From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga”, Lucas only said that Vader being Luke’s father and the helmet/mask coming off were part of the ‘original story’ that he had already as subtext of the first film ANH, but he doesn’t say that the redemption angle for Vader was part of that story. I find that omission a little interesting.

3. I watched the Rick Worley video. To me, Kurtz is giving the ‘agnostic’, producer and audience orientated ‘surface’ perspective of the first film, where Vader being the father is not an obvious part of the surface plot. I think that came from a Q&A session Kurtz did around 2004 or so. I agree with Worley that Kurtz’s mid/late 90’s-early 2000’s narrative about Lucas ‘tossing’ out the ‘original outline’ that was written for JEDI doesn’t make sense, as Kurtz wouldn’t have been around when Lucas wrote his story treatments and drafts for JEDI in late 1980/early 1981. So that would leave the time-frame of when EMPIRE was in development and production, an implication which would raise more questions - Lucas already having an outline for JEDI while EMPIRE was not even half-way finished(?).

IF I am right about the existence of the original twist(s) that may have been planned by Lucas - starting with SW and only being modified or completely changed with ROTJ - then it wouldn’t be out of bounds in my opinion to surmise that perhaps upon Kurtz leaving LFL, Kurtz and Lucas made a mutual agreement never to openly discuss this particular matter, except only in what can be described as contradictory accounts that are only half-truths at best.

Tosche Station said:

Avimo said:

Very cool stuff! I love studying the history of SW and the “when was Vader made Luke’s father” debate is one of my favorite topics to research. I’ve done a lot of analysis on the topic (based off of both the discoveries of other people, a few discoveries I’ve made myself, and the confirmed documented SW history like the Lucasfilm books and the public older drafts) and as of now I personally believe that Lucas is genuinely telling the complete truth that he had the Vader=Anakin twist fully conceived in its entirety by the third draft of ANH and just briefly considered scrapping it during ESB’s writing. I’ve gathered a lot of evidence to back this up, which I’d be happy to share with you guys if you’re interested.

I highly doubt Marcia’s claim is real. In that same interview that she said that, she said so many other things about SW’s history and her role in stuff that’s just blatantly not true; An example includes her saying “I never even knew there were two stories” which is obvious nonsense because the second ANH draft ends with a sequel teaser, Lucas said to Foster in December 1975 he planned two sequels and a prequel, and Mark Hamill said the actors were all signed on for a trilogy and Lucas mentioned an Episode IX to him in 1976, and I highly doubt George wouldn’t have told his own wife and editor about these plans especially since he already asked her for help with story related stuff multiple times before. Other examples include Marcia saying she suggested to Lucas to cut the Luke and Biggs scenes when Rinzler’s book says Marcia fought to keep them in, Marcia saying the idea of killing Obi-Wan was entirely hers when George said in a 1977 interview (which is years before the divorce so there’s no bias there) that he was already considering the idea of killing Obi-Wan at the time Marcia suggested it, and more. So for now I’m taking Marcia’s claim with a grain of salt because it doesn’t seem like Marcia’s recollection of SW’s history in general is very accurate or unbiased.

@Tosche Station, I’ve read through your posts on both here and the Jedi Council forums on this topic, and I just want to say I really admire your research and theories; you’ve come up with some fantastic and really well ideas and takes on this topic that I never even thought of. I would like to know though where this “google search link” where you found this alleged Kurtz quote is located; I copied and pasted the contents of your quote into Google multiple times and nothing came up. It sounds very intriguing and I’m curious to see it myself. But even if it’s real, it seems to make very little sense to me for two reasons:

1. The idea that Lucas had Vader being Anakin planned in the third draft, but then completely dropped it by the fourth draft, is pretty hard to believe because as far as I know, almost nothing about Vader and Anakin actually changed between the third and fourth draft. The only thing that changed was mention of Luke being raised by Anakin as a young kid being removed, but we know that was still Lucas’s intention even after it was removed from the script because Lucas told Brackett in the ESB conferences that Anakin was the one who brought Luke to Owen and Lucas also said in an interview in 1979 “The prequels are about the early life of Luke’s father when Luke was a little boy”. We’ve also got things you mentioned like Anakin being a pilot and being killed by Vader being mentioned in the fourth draft for the first time, but I think that’s likely just a result of Lucas deciding Luke shouldn’t know his father is a Jedi and Ben telling Luke about him, which was decided by a random note as shown in Rinzler’s Making of Star Wars book.

2. I found a video showing a clip where Kurtz is interviewed where he mentions that he doesn’t believe Vader was always intended as Luke’s father, and he mentions nothing about a “Anakin killed Vader” version of the twist at all. It’s shown in the youtube video “how to watch Star Wars: the George Lucas sequel trilogy” by Rick Worley at 1:40:51

Hi, Avimo! I’d be interested in your research!

1. I agree totally with you and your take regarding Marcia Lucas.

2. Whether or not Kurtz said what was in that quote I found via a google search - which btw I’m no longer able to find - I think that the idea did exist as a rumor circa 1980, 1981. I also happen to think it’s possible that the rumor was generated by a leak from LFL to the sci-fi/fantasy community. Meaning, I think there was an original version of the twist planned by Lucas during the writing of the first film*, STAR WARS(ANH). The leak may have been deliberate obfuscation or a genuine, unplanned leak. Like you, I also find it hard to believe that the twist would have been completely dropped by Lucas around the time of writing the fourth draft, after having been part of the submerged deep story underlying the third draft. I think that the “we find out who Darth Vader is at the end of the second book (sequel)” statement by Lucas back in December of 1975 during a production/story meeting, is referencing a twist of some kind involving Vader being Luke’s father or tied to him in some way, rather than part of the Vader-killed-Luke’s father version which anyway didn’t appear in script form until several months (almost three) after this December 1975 statement from Lucas.

• *Iow, the twist was NOT invented ex-nihilo during the writing for EMPIRE(ESB), despite what offical LFL ‘orthodox’ and the ‘general consensus’ among fans and moviegoers say. The original Vader-father twist was either: Option A - Vader was a clone of Luke’s father, and killed Luke’s father due to believing that he (Vader) was the ‘real deal’, and because of that genuine belief, he told Luke in EMPIRE that he’s his father. Option B - Vader had an affair with Annikin/Anakin’s wife, Annikin really did die, and thus Vader was Luke’s true biological father. Option C - Luke’s father Annikin killed the first, original Darth Vader sometime during the back-story, then took on his identity and became the Darth Vader we know in the original trilogy. This version of Vader would then try to make things right at the end of EMPIRE or beginning of JEDI, asking Luke to help him. In this version, he became Vader for more noble reasons. edit: The final, ‘canonical’ version of the twist revealed in ROTJ, was actually created/written during the development and scripting phase of JEDI, not for that of EMPIRE. Edit: I’ve noticed that in the 1983 documentary “From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga”, Lucas only said that Vader being Luke’s father and the helmet/mask coming off were part of the ‘original story’ that he had already as subtext of the first film ANH, but he doesn’t say that the redemption angle for Vader was part of that story. I find that omission a little interesting.

3. I watched the Rick Worley video. To me, Kurtz is giving the ‘agnostic’, producer and audience orientated ‘surface’ perspective of the first film, where Vader being the father is not an obvious part of the surface plot. I think that came from a Q&A session Kurtz did around 2004 or so. I agree with Worley that Kurtz’s mid/late 90’s-early 2000’s narrative about Lucas ‘tossing’ out the ‘original outline’ that was written for JEDI doesn’t make sense, as Kurtz wouldn’t have been around when Lucas wrote his story treatments and drafts for JEDI in late 1980/early 1981. So that would leave the time-frame of when EMPIRE was in development and production, an implication which would raise more questions - Lucas already having an outline for JEDI while EMPIRE was not even half-way finished(?).

IF I am right about the existence of the original twist(s) that may have been planned by Lucas - starting with SW and only being modified or completely changed with ROTJ - then it wouldn’t be out of bounds in my opinion to surmise that perhaps upon Kurtz leaving LFL, Kurtz and Lucas made a mutual agreement never to openly discuss this particular matter, except only in what can be described as contradictory accounts that are only half-truths at best.

Highly interesting theories regarding Annakin/Vader’s backstory! I’m particularly curious about your Options A and B, as I’ve never heard of them before. Are these pure conjecture on your part or they based on any concrete evidence/clue/hint/etc.? If the latter, I’d love to hear more!